Is This An Ivory Dipping Pen, Or...?

[OakIris]

Here is something that I have had for years, came from my father's family, never knew what it was.

 

Is this a damaged dipping pen, made of ivory? there isn't a nib, as far as I can tell, but as the metal end of the interior is badly bent in, I can't tell really. There also must have been something else attached to it as well, that perhaps lengthened it enough to make it useful for writing - the small part of one of the exterior ends is broken in half (can be seen on the left hand side of the first picture) and has interior threads, so I am assuming that once something screwed in there to make the pen, if that is what it is, comfortable for use. It's way too short right now to be used. A shame that it is so damaged; if it is a pen, I would love to have it restored, though not sure how that could be done.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Holly

Edited February 5, 2012 by OakIris

[PAKMAN]

Surely seem possible to have been a dip pen. Could the part that comes our have been turned around and inserted or threaded into the part it came out of?

[jbb]

Yes it's a (circa) late 19th century dip pen. It may or may not be ivory. There may be a Stanhope lens in it. The cross hatched end is a seal for sealing wax (I think.) I have a couple of those type of pens. Sometimes they accomodated a mechanical pencil when screwed in one way and a dip pen when the section is screwed in the other way.

 

Here's a picture that includes some of my similar dip pens:

 

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4077/4771713646_8617352515_b.jpg

Edited February 5, 2012 by jbb

[jar]

Maybe a button hook?

[Paddler]

It is difficult to tell from the photos, as there is no way to tell the size of things.

The metal part could very well be bent to accept a dip pen nib. This would be very easy to find out; get a nib at an art supply store and try it. Your find is such a pretty thing, it would be worth a dollar or two to find out.

[OakIris]

Surely seem possible to have been a dip pen. Could the part that comes our have been turned around and inserted or threaded into the part it came out of?

It's very possible as the "body" of the pen has interior threads, too, so that the "nib" part can be screwed in when you want to close it up. Just found this picture that looks very similar to what I have: dip pens and this one as well: Stanhope dip pen

 

I think those pictures pretty well prove (?) that what I have is a dip pen with, sadly, some broken/missing parts.

 

Anyone know if it can be fixed?

 

Holly

[jbb]

For reference here is a picture one of my pens apart. The pen and pencil section can be screwed into the handle so either can be used.

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7174/6826139615_174906bf8f_b.jpg

[jbb]

Holly, can you screw the two sections together in any way?

Is it possible the pen ferrule (metal part that holds the nib) is attached to the wrong end?

Does the ferrule slide off?

BTW, finding a nib to fit will not be hard.

Edited February 5, 2012 by jbb

[OakIris]

Yes it's a (circa) late 19th century dip pen. It may or may not be ivory. There may be a Stanhope lens in it. The cross hatched end is a seal for sealing wax (I think.) I have a couple of those type of pens. Sometimes they accomodated a mechanical pencil when screwed in one way and a dip pen when the section is screwed in the other way.

For reference here is a picture one of my pens apart. The pen and pencil section can be screwed into the handle so either can be used.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7174/6826139615_174906bf8f_b.jpg

Holly, can you screw the two sections together in any way?

Is it possible the pen ferrule (metal part that holds the nib) is attached to the wrong end?

Does the ferrule slide off?

BTW, finding a nib to fit will not be hard.

Thank you for showing us the pictures of your beautiful pens. Mine does have a Stanhope lens in it. (I had to look up what this was. :embarrassed_smile: ) You can see the lens in one of the pictures below, though the "lens" is only on one side; perhaps that is the way it is supposed to be? I looked at it with my jewelers loupe and there is a picture of the Eiffel Tower! Amazing - I had no idea! So perhaps my pen is also supposed to have a pencil attachment, which is also missing. Do you know if the metal of the pencil lead holder on your pens screws onto the ivory (is it actually some type of plastic, or....?) I removed the ferrule of my pen and under it the ivory? Plastic? is threaded, which makes me suspect that perhaps, as you suggest, the ferrule is on the wrong end, as it is not threaded. Possible the ferrule was supposed to be attached to what ever is missing from the broken threaded part.

 

It is difficult to tell from the photos, as there is no way to tell the size of things.

The metal part could very well be bent to accept a dip pen nib. This would be very easy to find out; get a nib at an art supply store and try it. Your find is such a pretty thing, it would be worth a dollar or two to find out.

I have added some pictures with a ruler for size reference. I am going to have to get one of those nibs, just to see if it will fit!

 

Here are some pictures that show a bit more detail:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Holly

[jbb]

Those pens don't always have a pencil so if the threaded section screws into the other part then see if the ferrule slides over the free end. It seems that you might just need to add a dip nib and your pen is complete!

 

The fact that you have the Stanhope lens adds to the value of your pen. Those are frequently missing. As for the material, I am not sure how you tell whether the pen is ivory, bone or some early form of plastic (if there even were plastics this early.)

[Bo Bo Olson]

Celluloid came on strong in 1870's and on. By 1880 the celluloid billiard ball replaced heavy lopsided ivory for pool.

 

They did wonders with bone too.

[OakIris]

Those pens don't always have a pencil so if the threaded section screws into the other part then see if the ferrule slides over the free end. It seems that you might just need to add a dip nib and your pen is complete!

 

The fact that you have the Stanhope lens adds to the value of your pen. Those are frequently missing. As for the material, I am not sure how you tell whether the pen is ivory, bone or some early form of plastic (if there even were plastics this early.)

The problem is that the part that screws into the pen is the part to which the ferrule is attached (but maybe shouldn't be.) This means the ferrule is inside of the pen body, unusable. The part that is still outside of the body is the broken threaded section - there is nothing to which to attach the ferrule. Hopefully these pictures will show you what I mean. The broken threaded part is on the section on the right hand side, and the threads can be seen in the 3rd picture (sort of - sorry for the poor qualityof my photos.)The first photo shows the body, the ferrule and the part that the ferrule was attached to; once the ferrule is on the right hand section, that section is then screwed onto the body, thus the ferrule is inside the body.

 

 

 

 

 

I did a quick Google search and found that there were plastics back then, but I don't know if they made dip pens out of them - celluloid was "invented" in the 1860's, though it wasn't until after Bakelite was invented in 1909 that plastic became widely used to make things. Most of the Stanhope pens I have been reading about seem to have been made of bone, ivory, that sort of thing. I have no idea what mine is made of; I guess I just assumed that it was ivory :embarrassed_smile: .

 

Holly

Edited February 6, 2012 by OakIris

[raging.dragon]

Caesin would be another possibility for an early plastic. Thus it's probably best to keep it away from water.

[OakIris]

Caesin would be another possibility for an early plastic. Thus it's probably best to keep it away from water.

I hadn't thought about that. Thank you for the warning. For some reason, I really think it is some sort of bone, but I won't put it to a water test to find out.

 

Any suggestions as to how I might be able to make this into a working pen again? Are there any known dip pen meisters around?

 

Holly

[pen2paper]

from a coupe of your photos the material is most likely bone.

 

magnify to see if you see slightly irregular marks, mostly in same direction, > with dark chatter marks.

see third example far right. 15.1

 

http://www.buttoncountry.com/Section15_OtherMaterials_1.htm

 

 

scroll down same page to see ivory.. very creamy, regular lines.

 

 

celluloid examples

even when worn, the lines are a little too perfect, but not fine, like real ivory

 

http://www.buttoncountry.com/Celluloids.htm

vegetable ivory - tagua/corozo nut - very irregular markings, and cracks

http://www.buttoncountry.com/vegetable_ivory_2.htm

horn - gelatinous molded,

http://www.buttoncountry.com/horn2.htm

 

Before I saw the metal ferule, though your piece might be a lace bobbin, or needle case.

jbb's example matches closest.

Google Stanhope, there are several small websites, which also include examples of writing, sewing, and the other items. I do not see the site owned by the author of the Stanhope book (UK), I have in my library. My buttonhook with scenes of Rouen came from his collection.

[OakIris]

Thank you for those samples, pen2paper. I can't really tell what the pen is made out of.

 

It definitely looks hand carved to me, not as if it came out of a mold (supposing that early plastic manufacturers used a mold to make things.) Of course, part of this might be wishful thinking - it just seems that it would be "better" if the pen was made from bone or ivory, ignoring the source for both....

 

Holly

[pen2paper]

Thank you for those samples, pen2paper. I can't really tell what the pen is made out of.

 

It definitely looks hand carved to me, not as if it came out of a mold (supposing that early plastic manufacturers used a mold to make things.) Of course, part of this might be wishful thinking - it just seems that it would be "better" if the pen was made from bone or ivory, ignoring the source for both....

 

Holly

 

chances are, with the coloring, it's intent, and the stanhope locale, Paris. it is French manufacture, and bovine bone.

animal "parts" were not wasted. Caen France was known for its manufacture of cooked, dyed, molded horn. Bone was a sturdy, reliable material.

 

ok, I'll lead you to the conclusion.. Holly you will have to look at the edges, and for the marks in the grain. Also the metal part.

Ivory, unless it was handmade, (but you also have a metal part, if original to the piece, jbb's pen suggest this is so), would have been considered dear, also the metal part would have been of similar quality.

That it is a stanhope of the Eiffel, dates the piece, and it's likely a souvenir.. there are high end souvenirs, low end.. read the materials under the loupe, and you will know. From the photos, at the magnification I see, my best guess is bone. Nice turning, and cuts.

Edited February 8, 2012 by pen2paper

[Shangas]

I'm pretty good at recognising ivory, but this one is a bummer.

 

I'd need a REALLY good quality photo (no glare, sharp focus, no flash etc) to be able to tell for certain.

 

At the moment I couldn't possibly say for sure.

 

Of course, this is all carved, so it makes it a bit harder.

 

Ivory has a sort of beige, off-white appearance. Very light creamy colour.

 

Bone is generally white, with lots of little dimples and holes in it.

 

Plastic (casein, celluloid or otherwise), will be very smooth, with no imperfections. As mentioned earlier, Celluloid was invented in the late 1800s as a replacement for ivory billiard balls.

 

From what I can see in the photographs...

 

- It's extremely white.

- It looks smoothish.

- It looks carved.

 

I'd say it's BONE. Ivory tends to yellow over time. Ivory also stains. If it's a dip-pen and came in contact with ink, there'd be some evidence of that. In my experience, ink cleans off bone very easily (I have a bone-shafted pen, before you start wondering...), ivory is a bit trickier.

[OakIris]

I'm pretty good at recognising ivory, but this one is a bummer.

 

I'd need a REALLY good quality photo (no glare, sharp focus, no flash etc) to be able to tell for certain.

 

At the moment I couldn't possibly say for sure.

 

Of course, this is all carved, so it makes it a bit harder.

 

Ivory has a sort of beige, off-white appearance. Very light creamy colour.

 

Bone is generally white, with lots of little dimples and holes in it.

 

Plastic (casein, celluloid or otherwise), will be very smooth, with no imperfections. As mentioned earlier, Celluloid was invented in the late 1800s as a replacement for ivory billiard balls.

 

From what I can see in the photographs...

 

- It's extremely white.

- It looks smoothish.

- It looks carved.

 

I'd say it's BONE. Ivory tends to yellow over time. Ivory also stains. If it's a dip-pen and came in contact with ink, there'd be some evidence of that. In my experience, ink cleans off bone very easily (I have a bone-shafted pen, before you start wondering...), ivory is a bit trickier.

I know, my photography skills (and camera) are less than stellar. The pen is definitely yellowish in colour; here are some more pictures that I took with a white background that brings out the colour better:

 

 

 

 

 

I see no sign of ink stains on the pen; perhaps the part that is missing was stained, but guess we'll never know. I imagine it is more likely to be bone than ivory but it does have a yellow tinge to it.

Holly

Edited February 9, 2012 by OakIris

[Shangas]

In my experience, ivory is never pure white, but then neither is bone. Just that bone is a purer not-white than ivory.

 

I'm still inclined to say bone.