I've Been Thinking About All These Parker Penman Sapphire Carts...

[OcalaFlGuy]

So I'm thinking to myself, where would someone in Hong Kong "bump into" 10-20,000 Parker Penman Sapphire carts? One important point would be that Parker I think was OUT of China before Parker Penman Sapphire even came to be.

 

Every now and then limited stocks of it show up on The Bay but I haven't seen this kind of quantity in the past few years anyway.

 

I wonder if they could have counterfeited it?

 

 

Seems very likely the technology exists over there to reverse engineer the exact formulation of the original ink. If they can sell 4 counterfeit ink carts for the same price as they sell a whole finished Parker 51 clone pen for, why not do it?

 

Remember that they got so good on some of the fake Sonnets that they were indistinguishable from the real deal. The only way to tell on some, if they have "real" gold nibs, is to scratch the underneath of the nib and see if it's really just plated.

 

Just for grins, I think I'm going to take a loupe to both the Chinese packages (when they arrive) and the 2 empty packs I have that I am reasonable positive are the real deal.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL-looking a gift yak in the mouth

[Torculus Resupinus]

Keep us posted, Bruce -- there's a fair few of us who have sprung for those carts, and we'll all be interested in your results. I don't have any genuine to compare to, or I'd try to duplicate your experiment.

[WOBentley]

I am also interested, although SamCapote's tests have convinced me that it is original. However even if it is not...and it is an exact clone...I still have "Penman Sapphire" as it seems to behave the same and color the same.

[writebyhand]

I don't know what you'll find at the bottom of the matter, Bruce, but I think your suspicion is justified!

[PJohnP]

Bruce :

 

 

I've mentioned elsewhere that the sum total of all of these cartridges is a very small quantity in terms of volume (maybe two to three small cases of ink cartridges), certainly quite small in terms of world use and capacity for the cartridges, as well as the difficulty in making/manufacturing cartridges for ink, leading me to the reasonable conclusion that it's unlikely that these are counterfeited.

 

More to the point, why would these be "counterfeited" less than full ? Granted, the ink aficionados would make the inference about evaporation through the cartridge polymer, but the average e-Bay buyer ? Not a chance.

 

Then, too, the market for this ink is a strictly limited one, and the potential for large scale sales is not present. It would make more sense to bottle the ostensible Penman inks, as the return on bottles per volume is much higher. The overhead of (partially) filling individual cartridges, packaging the carts in cello envelopes, and then shipping the sets would be untenable. OTOH, bottles of PPS and other related Penman inks regularly go for $35 and up, plus shipping. Much more profitable...

 

Lastly, and very much on point, what's the objective of selling counterfeit Parker Penman Sapphire and not explicitly identifying it as PPS ?

 

At the end, someone could sell PPS by name and in bottles for a heckuva lot more money, even if it were counterfeited ink.

 

Sure, I understand questioning this stuff popping up unexpectedly, and I think many of us did the same with both the HK PPS and the Greek-sourced PPS, but there's a substantial logical gap in believing, let alone proving, that it's counterfeited.

 

 

 

 

John P.

[smodak]

i ordered 200 of these - i am all ears. however, if te colors match exactly - why bother?

[Alohamora]

If the carts were full to the top, I'd be a lot more suspicious. But they're evaporated a little, what faker is going to go to the trouble of faking that detail. Unless these are fakes that have say around for 5 to 10 years? And PJohnP has a good point, if going to all that trouble, why not fake some bottles, that would be much easier and likely more profitable.

 

In the end, what matters to me is that they got the color and writing performance exactly right.

[Silent Speaker]

The Chinese counterfeit market would not last very long, nor be very successful, if it took it's cues on what to produce from a handful of english speaking forums on the internet.

 

Why are there more Montblanc (mostly ballpoints as far as I've noticed at that) fakes than Pelikan's, Sailor's, Visconti's, Yard-o-led's?

 

Why are there more fakes of popular Rolex and Panerai watch models than there are of say, Patek Phillipe and Glasshuette Original models?

 

The market demand determines what fakes are to be produced, as it does with most things on this earth.

 

An obscure fountain pen ink does not cut it, as far as I can ascertain.

 

If anything, and this is a real stretch, you'd see some local Chinese ink brand bottles relabeled as ordinary, in-production Parker ink (but more likely as MB) - but since it's mostly ballpoints and rollerballs that sell to and are used by the masses, it's as I said, a real stretch. I do think that there are relabeled ball/roller refills though, so watch out for that if you're in the market for them.

 

Don't think too much into it; buy the ink and enjoy.

 

Fakes come about if there's strong demand for some faddy consumer item (strong as in global, not FPN based) and only if sale cost exceeds the effort and cost to produce passable/sellable clones in the first place.

[Tweel]

I imagine someone in Hong Kong is just wheeling and dealing goods, including old warehouse stock, some cartons of Penman cartridges turned up somewhere (not necessarily in Hong Kong), and it seemed likely that they could be turned over for a profit.

 

It seems like a big deal to FP users, but they probably won't remember it with much clarity a year from now (aside, possibly, from mentally bookmarking it as an item that can turn a profit).

 

[And I should add: Enjoy the ink, and bless the busy tillers of the mercantile soil who turn up things we like!]

 

-- Brian

Edited November 22, 2011 by Tweel

[Bo Bo Olson]

I was suspicious of the Greek guy with this stuff popping up after such a long time of Ebay...the Guy from Hong Kong made me real suspicious.

More a chance at reality in Hong Kong than Shanghai.

 

But I was told...the Emperor was wearing cloths today.

 

And being too broke to play...decided being paranoiac for others was not worth my while.

[The Good Captain]

I haven't actually seen the ebay listing for this amazing product. Wouldn't dream of buying any but if someone could post the link, I'd be interested in seeing what you are talking about. (I know what the ink is, of course.)

[OcalaFlGuy]

The Chinese counterfeit market would not last very long, nor be very successful, if it took it's cues on what to produce from a handful of english speaking forums on the internet.

 

Why are there more Montblanc (mostly ballpoints as far as I've noticed at that) fakes than Pelikan's, Sailor's, Visconti's, Yard-o-led's?

 

Why are there more fakes of popular Rolex and Panerai watch models than there are of say, Patek Phillipe and Glasshuette Original models?

 

The market demand determines what fakes are to be produced, as it does with most things on this earth.

 

An obscure fountain pen ink does not cut it, as far as I can ascertain.

 

If anything, and this is a real stretch, you'd see some local Chinese ink brand bottles relabeled as ordinary, in-production Parker ink (but more likely as MB) - but since it's mostly ballpoints and rollerballs that sell to and are used by the masses, it's as I said, a real stretch. I do think that there are relabeled ball/roller refills though, so watch out for that if you're in the market for them.

 

Don't think too much into it; buy the ink and enjoy.

 

Fakes come about if there's strong demand for some faddy consumer item (strong as in global, not FPN based) and only if sale cost exceeds the effort and cost to produce passable/sellable clones in the first place.

 

First, thanks to John P and Silent Speaker for their (IMO) GREAT posts.

 

First John, I don't think the same gap in logic exists in Being Suspicious and wondering as there is in as you put it, *believing* that they ARE faked. I really never expressed myself anything more than an extreme curiosity and some suspicion.

 

I think perhaps the best argument to them not being faked is John pointing out that if they were, it'd make much more sense to label them AS PPS.

 

The bottle vs cart point I'm slightly less jiggy with. I could see the counterfeiters wanting to draw as less attention from Parker as possible. Even in China, action can be taken on them if the right people get PO'd enough to push the right buttons. I think a bunch of carts being sold may fly under the radar easier than mass quantities of full bottles, or especially if it was sold in both forms.

 

One last (and I think VERY important) point. I am not nearly as ready to superimpose any Western idea of "logic" and sensicality on the Chinese counterfeiters. Look at it this way. How much sense does it really make for them to counterfeit a REAL but sold for only about $1 Hero fountain pen? No sense at all to me, but that sure hasn't stopped them from doing just that.

 

So yes, I'm still suspicious, and yes, I'm still going to take a good look at the carts and boxes, but I'd also be most inclined to think they AREN'T faked.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL-just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you

Edited November 22, 2011 by OcalaFlGuy

[Silent Speaker]

 

One last (and I think VERY important) point. I am not nearly as ready to superimpose any Western idea of "logic" and sensicality on the Chinese counterfeiters. Look at it this way. How much sense does it really make for them to counterfeit a REAL but sold for only about $1 Hero fountain pen? No sense at all to me, but that sure hasn't stopped them from doing just that.

 

 

No need to impose any "western logic and worldly ways"!

 

Just think of it in terms of costs.

 

They (the counterfeiters) will ask themselves: "What's popular?" and " Is it popular enough, that if I copy it, can I make money from it?", that point being the key. What will be telling is if these PPS cartridges keep just "being found at the back of the shop" somewhere in China after this batch runs out; didn't the seller tell Capote that they only had so many units? If you're still paranoid, keep a lookout over the next few months for vindication.

 

 

Is there a viable market for 'fake' Hero's? Apparently so. Someone's making cash off the sale.

 

Is it more costly to produce cartridges than bottles? Does that even matter to the Chinese manufacturing behemoth, where "economies of scale" is taken to a whole new level?

 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

 

A long-winded and rambling tangent concerning fake Hero's (and thus entirely unnecessary. *Surprise Surprise -well, what have you come to expect? Succinctness and clarity of thought? Puh-leaze... - read at own peril):

 

Seiko make some pretty nice, "super high-end" watches eg., Credor and Grand Seiko, but they also make the "drugstore" Seiko 5's, lowest grade mechanical Seiko - I've seen fakes of them on some market stalls! Gave me a shock, to be sure - I thought: "why bother?!" - but then, Seiko round these parts (SE Asia, and Asia in general) have a pretty good reputation - I mean, I doubt the masses would recognise a Grand Seiko if they saw one (or could conceptualise it's cost), but to many individuals of lower income (the majority in most of these countries, including China) a lowest level, genuine Seiko would be seen to be a pretty spectacular affair (they're well made, and last forever without needing a servicing).

 

With that in mind, a fake Seiko 5 (or fake low-end Seiko quartz watch) makes more sense.

 

So, regarding the 'fake' Hero's, are they really fake Hero's? Fake like the fake cheap Seiko's in that they're an attempt to profit off the desire for that brand name, no matter how narrow the margin?

 

And thus in that case is Hero's reputation within China itself high enough amongst the local populace (the teeming masses with very low incomes) that someone could profit (by whatever infinitesimal amount) off the production and sale of wholly counterfeited pens bearing that marque?

 

Or, are they merely 2nd's (really bad 2nd's) from the same factory that produces the real Hero's?

 

I ask because I remember a theory that was floating about some watch enthusiast forums concerning the source of the mechanical (and quartz) movements of the fake watches: who makes them? They have to come from somewhere....

 

Some of them are similar enough, albeit perhaps more crappy, to some of the known Chinese movement models that people came up with the idea that this is where the fakers got their watch internals: they're "seconds" or real rejects of low-grade movements discarded or sold for a bargain by one of the established and 'respectable' watch movement factories.

 

Would this be a possibility for the fake Hero's? Are they just rejects from the main factory? Or are they really insidious and imperfect clones....?

Edited November 22, 2011 by Silent Speaker

[PJohnP]

First John, I don't think the same gap in logic exists in Being Suspicious and wondering as there is in as you put it, *believing* that they ARE faked. I really never expressed myself anything more than an extreme curiosity and some suspicion.

 

That was kinda why I used the word "believing" in my post. A lot of my thoughts on this resolve around the idea that sometimes, very occasionally, the stars do align neatly, and a fun deal does arise for many of us. I'm just thoroughly tickled to be able to play with such fun inks as PPS, and not to pay $50 a bottle for them.

 

 

I think perhaps the best argument to them not being faked is John pointing out that if they were, it'd make much more sense to label them AS PPS.

 

Yeah, that one's the kicker for me. Now, I've seen counterfeit items in Asia in the markets, sometimes with appalling misspellings of the band name (e.g., Nikee, Nikke), but I've not seen someone counterfeit an item and then completely miss trying to use the name... That's just a bit too subtle even for people like me who look for hidden meanings in oddball acronyms and cryptographic clues... Although all of that looking is good fun ! :hmm1:

 

The final thing that I find interesting about all of this is that a counterfeiter who could make an ink essentially identical to PPS could just sell it as the reincarnation of PPS, post a comparison, probably charge Iroshizuku rates for the ink, then sell it by the bucketful. Much more profitable, I say...

 

But like I say, all good fun, no harm intended by my posts about this, and I hope you're getting as much enjoyment from your PPS carts as I am from mine.

 

 

John "I'm not blue, just my ink" P.

[The Good Captain]

Perhaps this is slightly off-tack but if a clone of a pen looks right, works fine and is cheaper, is that a problem? It's the buyer who has to make the decision after all.

[writebyhand]

Perhaps this is slightly off-tack but if a clone of a pen looks right, works fine and is cheaper, is that a problem? It's the buyer who has to make the decision after all.

 

 

One concern that remains valid even when a product is apparently performing to par is whether any toxic materials were used in the ink or plastic packaging, or whether it contains anything that would corrode the pen or damage paper or surfacing.

[SamCapote]

Everything in this topic, and much more has already been discussed in this Marketplace topic.

[The Good Captain]

Perhaps this is slightly off-tack but if a clone of a pen looks right, works fine and is cheaper, is that a problem? It's the buyer who has to make the decision after all.

 

 

One concern that remains valid even when a product is apparently performing to par is whether any toxic materials were used in the ink or plastic packaging, or whether it contains anything that would corrode the pen or damage paper or surfacing.

A very good point.

[The Good Captain]

Everything in this topic, and much more has already been discussed in this Marketplace topic.

 

Thanks. I'd not actually looked at this part of that forum before so have marked it for instant notifications.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Could have put that link in earlier.....

 

Didn't matter...I saw money just the other day...while he Jay walked to the other side of the street.

 

I am lucky though. I get to wait for the mail, some one nice is sending me a couple of cartridges.

This ink came in 'after my time' in the early '90's and stopped at 2000 before my return three years ago.

 

Folks did not know about flushing supersaturated inks in pens back then...sort of pre-FPN.

 

Had people known about flushing it could be it would still be here.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Bo Bo Olson