Learning The Palmer Method Of Business Writing

[thang1thang2]

The trouble I am having now is making i's and e's sufficiently differential. Palmer has incredibly subtle e's that are hard to make.

 

Best,

 

Forrest

 

I have always hated his e's and, having not the skill to differentiate between such subtlety in my own handwriting, I opted to write with an 'e' that I could clearly distinguish between an i, e and c. It's not always perfect, but it seems to do the job well enough that I get complements on my handwriting. Were I to pursue a better palmer, I would probably make my 'e' more palmerlike. But, going for quicker legibility and not having the time to do strict practice? I just write my 'e's with a loop open enough to distinguish it easily.

[FSUpenfan]

Here are my first (and paltry ) offerings from my first day of practice. I'm using Mary Champion's book to learn. I've tried to move the pen more with my arm and to relax my fingers a bit - these motor patterns are definitely awkward and unfamiliar right now. I think that's part of why there is some random shading in these simple drills - too much accidental doubling back over lines I had already made.

 

 

 

It's going to be a long road, but I'm excited to learn. Thanks to all for the inspiration you have already provided on this and other threads.

 

Cheers,

 

Zach

Edited February 20, 2013 by FSUpenfan

[vivere]

FSU, thats a great start! Congratulations on your journey down the Penmanship Highway. (Look at Iampeth for the JJ Bailey handwriting examples. Its ten pages about the "Penmanship Highway")

 

Penmanship Highway

 

That writing is a source of inspiration for me.

 

With enough practice, my friend, you'll look like that in no time!

 

Best,

 

Forrest

[vivere]

Hello, everybody!

 

Here is today's practice on the perfectly pleasant p's.

 

To me this is one of the hardest letters to emulate. I think I've improved my differentiation between i's and e's. Still a lot more to work on. Keep trying, my friends.

 

Best,

 

Forrest

 

[vivere]

Hello, Everyone!

 

Here is today's practice.

 

Best,

 

Forrest

 

[Sailor Kenshin]

I've never found a video on it, but it's basically not using your fingers to form the letters, but instead waving your arm around to do the letter forming instead.

 

Hold an imaginary pen in your hand and write in big huge letters in the air "hello" WITHOUT moving your wrist, or fingers at all. Just move your arm. That is full arm writing. When you're "good" enough at it, you can do that on paper. In my opinion it's a stupid habit to get into. Writing with the fingers, with the forearm or the whole arm makes no difference what so ever and your effort is better spent learning how to write well, not differently.

 

Do you really think so? Because as a shaky southpaw hooker to begin with, I find the arm-movement very tough to master.

 

I just want my handwriting not to look like that of a psychotic lemur.

[thang1thang2]

The arm movement isn't necessary at all. One of the most accomplished copperplate masters of all time used purely finger movement. It's simply a way to use your fingers less and use stronger muscles so that, in theory, you write faster and for longer. If you're a secretary writing for 8 hours a day straight, every day, it might be useful to use arm movement so you can write constantly. Everyone else? Finger movement is fine. Or muscular movement (my personal favorite).

 

Muscular movement is basically keeping your arm moveable so you don't have to replant the entire arm every 3 letters, but you're still using your fingers for a lot of the work. It also allows you to seamlessly transition into full arm movement for large sweeping capitals and flourishes and is the method of the legendary madarasz.

[Ayla]

Here is my first writing specimen. And, later on I am going to practice

 

[Mickey]

The arm movement isn't necessary at all. One of the most accomplished copperplate masters of all time used purely finger movement.

 

I'd be careful with statements like that. What one does and what one thinks one does are often very different things. I doubt what you say is possible, let alone practical.

 

I would also point out that business writing is not Copperplate. The requirements are very different. Palmer was a proponent of finger activity, but not to the exclusion of 'arm movement.' He simple struck a rational middle path, something now called blended movement.

[Ayla]

And here is my first ever practice! Mind it is only the first half of drill 1, but its practice; and that is all that matters right now

 

The first few lines are how I would normally hold my pen and move my arm to write. The ones after that I changed my pen hold and move my arm slightly back and forth, keeping the fingers and wrist stationary. I hope I am doing this right (the drill and previous lessons before the first exercise).

 

Edited March 11, 2013 by Ayla

[thang1thang2]

 

I'd be careful with statements like that. What one does and what one thinks one does are often very different things. I doubt what you say is possible, let alone practical.

 

I would also point out that business writing is not Copperplate. The requirements are very different. Palmer was a proponent of finger activity, but not to the exclusion of 'arm movement.' He simple struck a rational middle path, something now called blended movement.

 

You're right, of course. Copperplate is very different than palmer. However I would still argue that one could write palmer with just finger movement by replanting their palm upon the page every three letters or so. It might not be the most efficient method, but it could be done. The balanced middle path is the one I would recommend, though. It's interesting to see what comments I make even a month ago, and realize that my opinions are getting more developed as I learn more and see myself wrong sometimes.

[idazle]

The arm movement isn't necessary at all. One of the most accomplished copperplate masters of all time used purely finger movement.

 

I'd be careful with statements like that. What one does and what one thinks one does are often very different things. I doubt what you say is possible, let alone practical.

 

I would also point out that business writing is not Copperplate. The requirements are very different. Palmer was a proponent of finger activity, but not to the exclusion of 'arm movement.' He simple struck a rational middle path, something now called blended movement.

 

+ 1

[Mickey]

I'd be careful with statements like that. What one does and what one thinks one does are often very different things. I doubt what you say is possible, let alone practical.

 

I would also point out that business writing is not Copperplate. The requirements are very different. Palmer was a proponent of finger activity, but not to the exclusion of 'arm movement.' He simple struck a rational middle path, something now called blended movement.

 

You're right, of course. Copperplate is very different than palmer. However I would still argue that one could write palmer with just finger movement by replanting their palm upon the page every three letters or so.

 

But, in planting the palm, you give up the main advantage of Palmer (and other business hands) speed, plus 'planting' the palm impairs the mobility of the fingers. I've never espoused 'the palm may not touch the page' school of writing, but I have suggested strongly that the less pressure on the palm, the better. A simple pen lift every few characters, coupled with a hand slide to the right every few inches of text, is a lot faster than a replant every few characters. BTW, this is pretty much what Michael Sull recommends in "American Cursive." (You don't think I come up with this stuff on my own?)

 

There was recently a post in the Ornamental Penmanship group about the handless penman, J.C. Ryan. If this fellow could do beautiful OP with just a couple of stumps, there has got to be hope for the rest of us.

 

http://www.zanerian.com/Ryan.html

[thang1thang2]

 

But, in planting the palm, you give up the main advantage of Palmer (and other business hands) speed, plus 'planting' the palm impairs the mobility of the fingers. I've never espoused 'the palm may not touch the page' school of writing, but I have suggested strongly that the less pressure on the palm, the better. A simple pen lift every few characters, coupled with a hand slide to the right every few inches of text, is a lot faster than a replant every few characters. BTW, this is pretty much what Michael Sull recommends in "American Cursive." (You don't think I come up with this stuff on my own?)

 

There was recently a post in the Ornamental Penmanship group about the handless penman, J.C. Ryan. If this fellow could do beautiful OP with just a couple of stumps, there has got to be hope for the rest of us.

 

http://www.zanerian.com/Ryan.html

 

You do indeed give up the advantage of Palmer, and you will probably never be as good. But for someone looking to quickly reform their writing, I would rather give them advice in focusing on two or three things, being slant and consistency and perhaps pen grip to ease discomfort when writing. Since they CAN use purely finger, or arm, or both for the writing, whatever method they use will eventually become effective, as long as they know where to start.

 

A person is more apt to become discouraged, I would think, if they are constantly drilled on how they should hold their arm. In this day and age, they'd probably wonder what holding the arm has to do with writing, even after having it explained. So, when giving advice, I go for consistency first, slant second and then pen grip third. If they express desire in improving beyond that, then I tell them about muscular movement as opposed to arm or finger movement. Even on these forums, though, I think it would be wise to learn about the letter forms first, see if you like the study of it, and then learn about the body. A quick summary or review might be fine, but you'll get bogged down rather quickly and discouraged if you think you have to learn a whole new way of writing before you can even learn the writing part of it.

[Mickey]

But, in planting the palm, you give up the main advantage of Palmer (and other business hands) speed, plus 'planting' the palm impairs the mobility of the fingers. I've never espoused 'the palm may not touch the page' school of writing, but I have suggested strongly that the less pressure on the palm, the better. A simple pen lift every few characters, coupled with a hand slide to the right every few inches of text, is a lot faster than a replant every few characters. BTW, this is pretty much what Michael Sull recommends in "American Cursive." (You don't think I come up with this stuff on my own?)

 

There was recently a post in the Ornamental Penmanship group about the handless penman, J.C. Ryan. If this fellow could do beautiful OP with just a couple of stumps, there has got to be hope for the rest of us.

 

http://www.zanerian.com/Ryan.html

 

You do indeed give up the advantage of Palmer, and you will probably never be as good. But for someone looking to quickly reform their writing, I would rather give them advice in focusing on two or three things, being slant and consistency and perhaps pen grip to ease discomfort when writing. Since they CAN use purely finger, or arm, or both for the writing, whatever method they use will eventually become effective, as long as they know where to start.

 

A person is more apt to become discouraged, I would think, if they are constantly drilled on how they should hold their arm. In this day and age, they'd probably wonder what holding the arm has to do with writing, even after having it explained. So, when giving advice, I go for consistency first, slant second and then pen grip third. If they express desire in improving beyond that, then I tell them about muscular movement as opposed to arm or finger movement. Even on these forums, though, I think it would be wise to learn about the letter forms first, see if you like the study of it, and then learn about the body. A quick summary or review might be fine, but you'll get bogged down rather quickly and discouraged if you think you have to learn a whole new way of writing before you can even learn the writing part of it.

 

My experience from 30 years teaching classical voice is that you can't build any sort of consistency in a complicated skill when the fundamentals are wrong. There may be alternative routes, but there are no short cuts. I've seen students improve radically just because someone (finally) pointed out to them that they were standing incorrectly. In the long run, limited failure is not that much better than unmitigated failure, especially once one realizes that simple patience and diligence had been the price for success.

 

Grip first. This is not to say that there is one correct grip, but if the stylus does not consistently meet the paper at the correct angle (range of angles, really), all sorts of other inconsistencies are going to show up: hard starts, scratchiness, etc. x 3. (Hint, the most stable, relaxed grip for Western writing - the tripod, neither encourages nor proscribes finger movement.)

 

Second probably is slant. Hands are constructed from a limited set of inter-related angles, but achieving consistent slant is almost impossible if other mechanical factors are not addressed first. Some things are simply a whole lot easier done the correct way. E.g., trying writing a straight push stroke with just the fingers. It will be more difficult to get the lines straight, let alone on the proper slant angle. So maybe slant is, at this point in the journey, a means of diagnosing other problems, not just a goal in itself. (If you want something really difficult, try doing unshaded spirals with a Hunt 99. This was part of today's morning warm up. It's not easy with a little arm help, but it's bloody near impossible with fingers alone.)

 

By the time we get to who's on third, you may be at letter forms, but I really think it would be better to be at an even more primitive level: basic counters. Hands are built from a limited number of objects (counters or principles). If any of counter is radically incorrect, the hand is going to fail.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Mickey

[smk]

Maybe I'm missing something but what is the benefit of reinventing the wheel when an accepted method is known to produce consistently good results?

 

IMO arm/muscular movement is the shortest path to good results. Attempting to learn the letter forms one way with only partial success and then starting to learn it the right way sounds harder to me. I would expect more practitioners to drop out when they realize all of their work needs to be redone with the arm movement than if they start with the proper exercises.

 

Salman

[Mickey]

Maybe I'm missing something but what is the benefit of reinventing the wheel when an accepted method is known to produce consistently good results?

 

IMO arm/muscular movement is the shortest path to good results. Attempting to learn the letter forms one way with only partial success and then starting to learn it the right way sounds harder to me. I would expect more practitioners to drop out when they realize all of their work needs to be redone with the arm movement than if they start with the proper exercises.

 

Salman

 

I don't think you're missing anything - just the same old, same old. It is difficult for people to accept that ingrained bad habits are usually worse than no habits at all and that the pedagogy designed for a 5 year old may be a challenge for them (as well as being utterly necessary). I wish I'd learned to be patient back when Eisenhower was in the White House.

 

Side bar: I just received my copy of "Spencerian Script and Ornamental Penmanship Volume Two." Two quick looks and back to the exercises. Got to work on those capital stems...

[thang1thang2]

I'm in for it now, aren't I?

 

 

My experience from 30 years teaching classical voice is that you can't build any sort of consistency in a complicated skill when the fundamentals are wrong. There may be alternative routes, but there are no short cuts. I've seen students improve radically just because someone (finally) pointed out to them that they were standing incorrectly. In the long run, limited failure is not that much better than unmitigated failure, especially once one realizes that simple patience and diligence had been the price for success.

 

I've seen people get discouraged because they didn't see themselves making ANY sort of progress, even though they were making progress doing things the "long" way. And I've seen people who would've only picked something up by taking a "shortcut" to improve a little bit, and then figuring out what they need to do to improve their handwriting for real, and then doing it that way. Then there are people who simply see the road to greatness for what it is, and journey on it. It depends on the mentality of the person. If a person isn't motivated to do something, no sort of proper learning will speed the process along, and they'll hate the journey. However, should they find that spark turned into a flame of desire, you can then instruct them on the proper way to do things.

 

I sometimes have trouble wording what I'm trying to say, and I apologize for that. I do actually agree with you, just so you know.

[Mickey]

I'm in for it now, aren't I?

 

I sometimes have trouble wording what I'm trying to say, and I apologize for that. I do actually agree with you, just so you know.

 

Never doubted it. It's just that it's been my experience you can't 'save' or 'illuminate' those who are not eager to work.

[bassmannate]

I have to say that the muscular movement showed results within days. My handwriting was much more consistent and legible.