Best writer under $18 (9GBP)

[Hawk]

hi Hawk,

 

A slight mix up in terminologies here I think.

 

Bulletproof/Waterproof inks are what in UK are called Permanent inks meaning that they are much more resistant to being faded or washed out by exposure to water or caused to 'bleed' out by just too much moisture,these are rather water resistant than waterproof as against the 'washable' inks which in theory at least can be removed from clothing and paper by washing with water and for best results a detergent

 

The inks that should not be used in fountain pens are the 'Indian' inks and others containing shellac and other assorted chemicals which do the inner workings of fountain pens little good and in many cases stuff them completely and require at best a complete strip down and at worst complete replacement, these inksare designed for use with dip pens and with some stylographic these are the pens with needle and tube nibs, pens like Kooh-i-noor, rotring Isographs etc. There are also some acrylics based formulations designed for use with airbrushes and technical pens and the like that are in the vast majority of cases not for use in FPs and the old adage of in doubt don't is best followed.

 

Noodlers inks are like many modern inks highly saturated with pigments or dyes and particularly in the case or reds and purples can cause staining to certain plastics, although in most cases they are perfectly safe to use in modern fountain pens there are certain exceptions, if you have one of the exceptions then it is likely that you will want to avoid certain colours and will know about the potential problem, although if you rinse your pen through regularly there is usually little to worry about.

 

Then there is the situation where some pens have feeds and flow characteristics or the owners might have preferences about the flow characteristics of certain inks in certain pens but this is a purely personal thing.

 

I have rambled on a bit tut i hope that it has helped things and not muddied the waters and confused you more than you were before.

 

Cheers, John

Thank you, for the explanation. I do understand the difference between fountain pen inks and waterproof (Permanent) inks. I do use Rapidograph pens and have their waterproof ink (Rapidograph) to use with those pens, I use no other inks in these pens. I also use dip pens, and again I use waterproof inks, when I need it to be permanent. However for all my fountain pens I only use fountain pen inks, as recommended by fountain pen manufactures. If I go into a store and the ink is labeled waterproof I pass on it, if the ink says for fountain pens that is what I purchase, unless directed otherwise by a tech rep or pen manufacture.

 

If I am truly concerned about the choice, as I have said will I write the manufacture of the pen I am about to use. Taking advice from the web is risky business at best. In any case, if someone ask me about inks for fountain pens the above is exactly how I would reply.

Hawk

[Hawk]

I've found the Pelikan Pelikano and Parker Frontier to be very good budget pens.

 

I've written a review comparing both that you might be interested to read:

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...showtopic=18139

 

I've since gotten an Frontier with Medium nib "bordeaux metallic" which I think(not sure) is titanium plated on the clip and nib, and that one is the smoothest and most consistant writer I own. 5GBPs on ebay. (I've got good experiances with a pen seller from france and someone called pilotfishtrading from the UK, just experiances as repeat satisfied customer with both these sellers though.)

Thanks for your post, pen review, and recommendations.

 

Based on your review this morning I purchased (On Ebay) a new Stainless Steel Parker Frontier, the price a mere $8.50.

Hawk

[Oxonian]

hi Hawk,

 

Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to teach gramdma to suck eggs as it were, like you I use Rapidographs etc and having seen the results of wrong ink, wrong pen would hate it to happen any more often than it does.

I have a Frontier Stainless GT, it is one of the best performing pens not only in its price bracket but overall that I have come across in a long while, I hope that you enjoy its smoothness.

Cheers, John

[Hawk]

hi Hawk,

 

Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to teach gramdma to suck eggs as it were, like you I use Rapidographs etc and having seen the results of wrong ink, wrong pen would hate it to happen any more often than it does.

I have a Frontier Stainless GT, it is one of the best performing pens not only in its price bracket but overall that I have come across in a long while, I hope that you enjoy its smoothness.

Cheers, John

Thank you, this will be my first Parker pen, normally I only buy German made pens so we shall see.

If this works out I may just find a nice new Parker Sonnet or Inflection. I am like pens as I am about watches, I must have 20 or more quality wrist watches and I alternate often, I do the same with thing with my pens, its like having more than one girlfriend, and each is different it its own way.

Hawk

[jsonewald]

Hero 329

Hero 110

Hero 82-1

 

All purchased from isellpens.com

 

All are definitely F to EF writers, if that makes a difference.

[Green Maned Lion]

Gilette is a very bright company. They developed a business model that is used by many things that require replacement items. The concept was that Gilette would sell their razors at or below cost, sometimes even giving them away. They felt that if they gave you an offer you could not refuse on their non-disposable razors, you would not refuse. Further, you would love their non-disposable razors. It worked with my dad, I know.

 

Why do they do this? Its not charitability on their part. They make money, a lot of money, selling you Gilette's proprietary razor blades. This business model is used by quite a few printer companies. Sony is using it for their new PS3 gaming console, losing $200 a unit because they believe they will make make it up in video game sales.

 

Pen companies generally don't use the basic business model, but it DOES go to show how profitable sales of replacement/refills can be. Thus, a pen company wants you to believe that their ink is best for their pen. Because they make money when you buy THEIR ink.

 

Many pen companies try and convince you that their rollerball refils are the only ones that work in their pens, even though most of them use the standard refil that Rotring and a hundred others use. It doesn't matter whose brand name is on the refil. I think most of them are made in some Sanford factory somewhere. Same refil, different brand name. You aren't going to damage the pen, certainly. A rollerball pen is basically a fancy case for the refill, the pens mechanism is self contain in the refill, thrown away when it runs out.

 

As others have said, "waterproof" ink is not refering to Noodler's. Its refering to India, some iron gall, and so forth. Before Noodler's there weren't much in the way of water proof fountain pen inks. The other waterproof inks have some kind of oil, particle, or other agent that makes it resist dilution by water. Add water to a water based agent, you will dilute it.

 

Noodler's, unlike other FP inks, bonds to paper in a chemical reaction. In essence, the ink impregnates itself into the paper, and the colour becomes a part of the papers moleculer structure. The ink itself, though, is still mostly water. Its water and dye, like all other fountain pen inks, except in noodler's case, the dye is one that reacts chemically with cellulose, which is what paper basically is.

 

Noodlers is, however, a very high dye-content ink. This means that with certain pens, it can stain their insides, more so than many other inks. Noodlers biggest drawback is when you spill it on cotton clothing. Cotton is, for all intents and purposes, pure cellulose. It reacts with it, just as it does with paper, and the only way to remove it is to cut it out with a knife and sew it. You can probably do it with some chemistry set too, but likely that would destroy the shirt even more.

[mfwebb]

Thanks, any ideas on a Duke Carbon Fiber? How would you rate the quality of the Duke's. Any thoughts on Hero brand pens?

So far I have purchased only one Chinese pen; a Dewent Spaceship, and it was well made but a little on the heavy heavy size.

As for nib sizes on these pens, do they write as stated, meaning if the advertisement as a medium nib, is it? Most say medium-fine whatever that is.

 

I haven't tried the Carbon Fibre.

 

I would rate the quality of Duke pens as first class. I have criticisms of only 2 -- the mini torpedo is too small for my hand, although I do use it in rotation as a shirt pocket pen and the Sapphire with its gold-coloured trim is a bit too flashy for my taste. But both are excellent writers and up there with the best.

 

I haven't tried any of the Hero Brand pens.

 

All the Dukes are heavy, being lacquered over metal. The big pens are really heavy -- the Silver Rings is the same physical size as the Pelikan 800 but weighs in at 47 grams against the 800's 29 grams.

 

The general description of Duke nibs is "Light Medium". My experience of Medium nibs is based on 40 years of using Parker Medium nibs and so the "Light Medium" is, for me, a good description. I have now gone off Parker Medium altogether as being too broad for my current tastes.

 

All the Dukes in my possession except the Mini Torpedo and the Complete Esteem are the same "Light Medium". The other 2 write with a slightly finer line.

 

I hope this helps.

[helius]

Basically echoes a lot of what mfwebb just said...

 

I have a Duke carbon fiber in green. (A side note: I think the green is the only carbon fiber with straight lines running from nib to tail of the pen. The blue and red ones are diagonal swirls.) It's one of Duke's many "Iridium Point Germany" pens, and like the other two IPG Dukes I have, it's heavy for its size. Posted, they are all unbalanced in my hands (medium-sized gloves, short and stubby fingers). As far as fit and finish goes, it's been pretty good for me - out of three pens, one had a loose cap that didn't post properly, one has a barrel that squeaks a little when I unscrew it, and another had a nib that was too dry (required a few minutes with some micromesh). All my three IPG nibs seem to be a hair broader than my Pilot medium.

 

Basically, Dukes are great pens for the price.

 

Hope this helps.

[fjf]

Waterman kultur:

 

http://i6.ebayimg.com/01/i/08/3a/f6/5d_1_sbl.JPG

[kissing]

Hello, I do believe if you do a little research you will find that all pen manufactures recommend that only fountain pen inks should be used in their pens,and also note that waterproof inks should not be used...ever.

 

Fountain pen ink and a waterproof ink are total different types of inks, where waterproof inks will normally clog a fountain pen. I am fairly certain about this.

Hawk

Pen manufacturers these days

 

Don't take their word for it - their knowledge about fountain pens and inks is usually at a very low level. Trust me, I've asked them and I know.. :ph34r:

 

A Parker manufacturer will tell you to only use Parker ink in their pens for best performance. A Waterman manufacturerer will tell you that Waterman inks work best in their pens. A Sheaffer manufacturer will tell you that their pens were specifically designed to be used with Sheaffer inks only, and so on...

 

:roflmho:

 

I think there was some misunderstanding when I referred to "waterproof inks".

Noodler's inks are fountain pen inks The definition of 'fountain pen ink' meaning an ink that is used in fountain pens (there is nothing in its meaning that differentiates between waterproofness). Noodler's just happen to have fountain pen inks that are waterproof too (a new invention!). It didn't exist in the past, but now it does. If waterproof Noodler's inks were disastrous to fountain pen inks - Fountain Pen Network wouldn't have chosen their special Limited Edition Brown ink a Noodler's bulletproof ink

 

I don't know who you've been asking, but as far as I know, pen manufacturers, nor pen shop workers have never even heard of Noodler's.

 

I know I have rambled on a lot, but I don't think it is correct at all to say that waterproof inks (ie: Noodler's) are never to be used in fountain pens Noodler's were designed for fountain pens, and in my opinion, are far more successful at making ink than any modern pen manufacturer brand out there. No other brand gets even close to match its range of colours, and no other fountain pen ink out there is waterproof. New technology that the other brands have not discovered, nor even thought about

[sonia_simone]

Thanks to you all, I just ordered a pair of Cores from Swisher. I've never owned this weird pen before.

 

O Impulse Control, Where Art Thou?

[Neecerie]

Thanks to you all, I just ordered a pair of Cores from Swisher. I've never owned this weird pen before.

 

O Impulse Control, Where Art Thou?

Am now dying to know what you will end up thinking of them...

 

I -heart- mine...its just so dependable and nice...even if its not beeeeeyutiful.

[Neecerie]

Thanks to you all, I just ordered a pair of Cores from Swisher. I've never owned this weird pen before.

 

O Impulse Control, Where Art Thou?

Am now dying to know what you will end up thinking of them...

 

I -heart- mine...its just so dependable and nice...even if its not beeeeeyutiful.

[sonia_simone]

Thank you, for the explanation. I do understand the difference between fountain pen inks and waterproof (Permanent) inks. I do use Rapidograph pens and have their waterproof ink (Rapidograph) to use with those pens, I use no other inks in these pens. I also use dip pens, and again I use waterproof inks, when I need it to be permanent. However for all my fountain pens I only use fountain pen inks, as recommended by fountain pen manufactures. If I go into a store and the ink is labeled waterproof I pass on it, if the ink says for fountain pens that is what I purchase, unless directed otherwise by a tech rep or pen manufacture.

 

If I am truly concerned about the choice, as I have said will I write the manufacture of the pen I am about to use. Taking advice from the web is risky business at best. In any case, if someone ask me about inks for fountain pens the above is exactly how I would reply.

Hawk

Kissing spells it out quite well.

 

Hawk, you may get some enjoyment out of looking through the wealth of information here about inks. You should of course do what makes you comfortable, and if you want to stick with manufacturers' recommendations then that's great. But it is not quite a sure bet--if you find an old bottle of Parker's (now discontinued) Penman ink, I suggest you not try it in a vintage "51" or you may find yourself with a repair bill on your hands.

 

Some manufacturers make great pens and mediocre (not unsafe, just mediocre) inks--Lamy comes to mind. Some manufacturers make excellent inks and do not make pens at all--Diamine is one, R&K is another. For many knowledgable pen users, Noodler's falls into that latter category.

 

The warning you found about Noodler's was, I'm fairly sure, on Rick Propas's excellent site about vintage Pelikans. (I almost said Penguins!) He errs on the conservative side--there are other knowledgeable folk who work on vintage Pelikans who do not share Rick's concern. Rick may be right, or they may be right--I am not an expert on pen restoration so I am not qualified to answer. Rick is well respected enough that I'm inclined to share his caution.

 

But either way, the advice is not relevant to pens like the Rotring Core.

 

You're wise to not take any bit of advice you find on the Internet, but this site has many true experts (as Kissing points out, sometimes more expert than the advice given by manufacturers, cf. Richard Binder), and it has the advantage of being self-correcting. If someone posts dangerous nonsense, well-known experts will generally show up in a hurry and provide additional information.

 

In short: Noodler's makes good waterproof ink (as well as non-waterproof varieties). It is fountain pen ink. It is not India ink or Rapidograph ink. I am not recommending you use Noodler's. We're just clarifying that it is not going to void warrantees on modern pens, especially inexpensive workhorse pens, and that it is unlikely to be causing the kinds of problems Green Maned Lion is having with his Core.

 

I now return you to your scheduled discussion of fine cheap pens.

[sonia_simone]

Am now dying to know what you will end up thinking of them...

 

I -heart- mine...its just so dependable and nice...even if its not beeeeeyutiful.

I'll post here when I get 'em!

 

Did I need more pens? Um, not so much.

 

Does the Core have a screw cap or a snap, by the way?

[Green Maned Lion]

Its a snap cap.

 

the Core has this... uh, possibly useful feature, but not for someone like me who fills their pens constantly checking the ink level. If you run out of ink in the cartridge or converter, you can unscrew the barell about a half a turn to a detent. This pulls the cartridge/converter out of the feed, thus doing something like creating increased airflow or whatever to help you get the last bit of ink out of the nib. I don't follow how it works. I don't see what use I would ever have for it, but its there. I think my pen has a small defect that requires me to push the converter back in when i open it to check the ink level. I think thats why it leaks ink. I'm not sure.

 

Its not noodlers though. I also have a slight flow problem with it (I now use it for those times when i need an uber dry pen), so I thoroughly flushed it, and put in Quink. Problem was still there.

 

I don't discourage people from buying a Core though. Rotring makes a great product, and I think mine is just an exception to the rule. I have a bunch of 600s, and I love them.

 

BTW: I see some Hero 100s on eBay for $19.99. If you want to push a little further, its a bargain. 14k gold nib, aerometric filler, good writer.

[sonia_simone]

Thanks for the info!

 

Given the level of my ink ADD, I can't see needing that feature either, as I check approximately twelve times a day to see if I get to change colors yet.

[Hawk]

Am now dying to know what you will end up thinking of them...

 

I -heart- mine...its just so dependable and nice...even if its not beeeeeyutiful.

I'll post here when I get 'em!

 

Did I need more pens? Um, not so much.

 

Does the Core have a screw cap or a snap, by the way?

A Snap on cap.

Edited December 5, 2006 by Hawk

[Hawk]

The warning you found about Noodler's was, I'm fairly sure, on Rick Propas's excellent site about vintage Pelikans. (I almost said Penguins!) He errs on the conservative side--there are other knowledgeable folk who work on vintage Pelikans who do not share Rick's concern. Rick may be right, or they may be right--I am not an expert on pen restoration so I am not qualified to answer. Rick is well respected enough that I'm inclined to share his caution.

 

But either way, the advice is not relevant to pens like the Rotring Core.

 

You're wise to not take any bit of advice you find on the Internet, but this site has many true experts (as Kissing points out, sometimes more expert than the advice given by manufacturers, cf. Richard Binder), and it has the advantage of being self-correcting. If someone posts dangerous nonsense, well-known experts will generally show up in a hurry and provide additional information.

 

In short: Noodler's makes good waterproof ink (as well as non-waterproof varieties). It is fountain pen ink. It is not India ink or Rapidograph ink. I am not recommending you use Noodler's. We're just clarifying that it is not going to void warrantees on modern pens, especially inexpensive workhorse pens, and that it is unlikely to be causing the kinds of problems Green Maned Lion is having with his Core.

 

I now return you to your scheduled discussion of fine cheap pens.

 

No fear my friend, I have no plans to whatsoever to use any Noodler's inks.

However I do intend to stick with pen manufacture inks, and their recommendations, why would I do otherwise? Hawk

[psfred]

Noodler's inks are dye base inks, and the dyes are fully water soluble UNTIL they chemcially react with cellulose. They link to the cellulose and THEN become insoluble in water. Noodlers inks will wash out of pens quite nicely.

 

The confusion, I believe, comes from not understanding that "calligraphy" inks are thin acrylic paint, usually pigmented (not dye solutions), and THEY, once dry, are pretty much impossible to remove without physically scraping them off -- the acrylic medium polymerizes when the water evaporates, just like latex house paint. Not pretty at all.

 

Unless you mix powdered cellulose into your ink, I do not understand how using Noodler's in a pen will damage it. Note that if you write on a plastic bag or sheet with Noodlers Bulletproof inks, they wash off when dry, leaving no trace (except possibly some reds, as noted below). The ink itself does not become water insoluble, it covalently links to cellulose (only), and becomes part of it, hence insoluble. Ink that does not bind to the cellulose washes off.

 

So far as I know, ALL red inks carry a risk of staining plastic pen parts, including silicone rubber ink sacs (Parker 21, 51, and related pens, for instance). Not news, it's been happening for decades at least, and isn't considered unusuall by anyone. If you want a pen to stay stain free, you must use inly inks that do not contain ANY red, and that pretty well limits you to Washable blues (and not all of them!).

 

Older 'permanent' inks (Sheaffer Scrip black, red, blue, and blue-black) behave in a similar manner -- they are completely water soluble UNLESS dried onto paper containing cellulose, where they, or portions of them, stay there no matter how much you soak the paper. I do not know if they are celluose reactive dyes or "cellulose active" dyes (that hydrogen bond, a different process), but they DO make fairly permanent marks.

 

The other ink that causes confusion is the old iron gallate type ink (Diamine Registrars, for example). This ink DOES cause pen clogging due to the precipitation of ferric gallate in the presence of oxygen, and if used in a pen and left there, will produce considerable amounts of solids that do not re-dissolve in water. Not as bad as acrylic or shellac containing mixtures, but pen killers none the less.

 

Noodlers cellulose reactive inks are NOT ferro-gallate inks!

 

One last note: I only repair pens for myself, and my knowledge of ink chemistry is limited. I use Noodlers, but have not for long enough to verify that it never causes problems. I would assume that someone who commercially repairs pens might see problems I don't. Note also that MIXING inks can cause all sorts of problems -- ink is somewhat more than just dye in water, and the exact formulas are often somewhat less than compatible. That means that if you just fill a pen with one brand of ink without competely flushing it, you may get very undesirable chemical reactions going on inside the pen or ink sac -- precipitation of insoluble materials comes to mind at once. The resultant "soup" may indeed clog feeds and nibs, and it's possible that something will be produced that will corrode things, although I find that rather unlikely -- the days of very corrosive inks are, I think, past.

 

I would not hesitate to use any commerically available fountain pen ink in any of my FP -- and yes, I always flush them well when changing inks!

 

Peter