Stalwart?

[LCG]

Hi;

 

Is this a Stalwart or Commando pen? Imprint says Waterman's Ideal, Globe, Reg. US Pat.Off Made in the United States of America. Cap has Watermans on clip and a thin gold band near bottom. Color is blue pearlescent. Nib says Watermans Ideal Rigid 14 kt. Feels firm.

 

Thanks;

[brettttt]

LCG,

 

 

Not a Commando. If it's about 5 inches long, it's possible that it was sold as a Stalwart. If it's more like 4 1/2 inches, make that a Starlet. "Dauntless" is another model name that the company used for pens like this, and if there's some subtle difference between that and a Stalwart I've not figured it out or come across anyone who has. Someone must know, though . . . .

 

Good luck,

Brett

[LCG]

LCG,

 

 

Not a Commando. If it's about 5 inches long, it's possible that it was sold as a Stalwart. If it's more like 4 1/2 inches, make that a Starlet. "Dauntless" is another model name that the company used for pens like this, and if there's some subtle difference between that and a Stalwart I've not figured it out or come across anyone who has. Someone must know, though . . . .

 

Good luck,

Brett

 

Oops, forgot the measurement. It's 4.5" with the cap on.

 

Thank you Brett.

[Ernst Bitterman]

I have discovered something in this line-- from the Stalwart page of my very-soon-to-be-revealed website update:

 

This pen’s name is entirely in keeping with the practices of the 1940s; somewhat martial in nature. It is a name than is a little difficult to apply, though, as the differences in the US and Canadian/UK production lead to confusion. The fact that both variants occupy the same low rung in each line up doesn’t help.

 

The US model has a single cap band, and is distinct from the Starlet 352V, which is of course a “lady’s” version of the same thing. The Commonwealth version has two bands, to distinguish it from the Dauntless 302, which one takes to be a lower-priced version of almost exactly the same pen with a single band; the catalogues I’ve found with the Dauntless in it don’t have prices. The fact that the Dauntless looks like the US Stalwart tends to make people swap the names; I struggled along for quite some time thinking my Canadian Stalwart was in fact a Dauntless.

 

To repeat for clarity’s sake, then:

Two bands, non-US imprint is a Stalwart.

One band, US imprint is also a Stalwart.

 

Of course, to say anything about Waterman’s catalogue with this much confident emphasis is asking for trouble.

[brettttt]

E. B.,

 

Interesting. This does help to disambiguate some of the pens in the mix. But am I correct in thinking that it doesn't do much for US Stalwart vs. Dauntless? The latter doesn't seem to show up very much in US ads, but it did appear in the Christmas 1949 ad (in NY Times Magazine, Sat. Eve. Post, and probably others):

 

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae246/brettttt/NYT_Magazine_1949-12-11_p58-detail-Dauntless_set.jpg

 

As this gives a price only for the set, it doesn't allow us to know what the pen alone sold for, of course. Stalwarts sold for $3.50 (probably. One late ad [Dec. 1949] has it at $4.00).

 

Oh, wait a second. I just noticed something. This ad

 

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae246/brettttt/Life_1942-12-14_p105-color-detail_302-352.jpg

 

from 1942 seems to predate the assignment of a model name, referring to the pen as 302 or 352. Since the price depends on chrome vs. gold trim, would it make sense to assume that 302=chrome and 352=gold? Further extrapolating, I wonder whether 302=chrome=Dauntless and 352=gold=Stalwart. Not likely, I know, but if all of this turns out to hold water, the only mystery left may be what they called the 302V. Perhaps Dalton?

[Ernst Bitterman]

IN the UK catalogue I was looking at when I wrote the previous, the Dauntless had 302 as a model number. I'm not going to make the error of making a positive and absolute statement on a Waterman topic, but this is starting to look like a solution to the Dauntless/Stalwart problem. None of the US resources I had access to even mentioned the Dauntless, so I'm going to have to edit that page before I throw it open to the internets (with more use of "perhaps" and "probably ).

 

edit- say, mind if I use that "Youngsters" ad on the new site as an illustration of the problem?

Edited November 1, 2011 by Ernst Bitterman

[brettttt]

say, mind if I use that "Youngsters" ad on the new site as an illustration of the problem?

 

Not in the least. If you need the full ad or metadata just let me know.

[Ernst Bitterman]

I think the thing as it stands here will serve, but one day I may break into your house and copy your hard-drive in the hunt for treats like this

 

edit-- inspiration strikes in this:

...the only mystery left may be what they called the 302V...

"Damsel" seems a likely answer!

Edited November 1, 2011 by Ernst Bitterman

[brettttt]

edit-- inspiration strikes in this:

...the only mystery left may be what they called the 302V...

"Damsel" seems a likely answer!

 

That's genius! I bow in obeisance.

[gweddig]

Just to murk up the pond:

I found this a few weeks ago, "Made in the United States of America" imprint, 4-5/8" long capped, US PAT OFF nib. So is it a Stalwart? Is Starlet out of the picture? Or is the Starlet a model in the Stalwart line?

 

To quote Ernst's future article [Greg's edit]:

 

To repeat for clarity's sake, then:

Two bands, non-US imprint is a Stalwart. [5"]

One band, US imprint is also a Stalwart. [5"]

(ergo) One band, US imprint, 4-5/8 (or 4-1/2) is a Starlet? or is that being too presumptuous?

 

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6225/6332483897_8501a82810_z.jpg

 

Thanks for the education!

--greg

[Ernst Bitterman]

Just to murk up the pond:

I found this a few weeks ago, "Made in the United States of America" imprint, 4-5/8" long capped, US PAT OFF nib. So is it a Stalwart? Is Starlet out of the picture? Or is the Starlet a model in the Stalwart line?

 

To quote Ernst's future article [Greg's edit]:

 

To repeat for clarity's sake, then:

Two bands, non-US imprint is a Stalwart. [5"]

One band, US imprint is also a Stalwart. [5"]

(ergo) One band, US imprint, 4-5/8 (or 4-1/2) is a Starlet? or is that being too presumptuous?

 

 

Thanks for the education!

--greg

 

Sometimes IDing Watermans seems like quantum physics; observation changes the observed. I'd be willing to support Starlet (having never had one in hand before), but I also wouldn't be surprised at evidence arising of it being something else

[brettttt]

Yep, Starlet seems right to me, too.

[probablyobsessedwithpenstuff]

i know this is an old post, but i have a Canadian stalwart, chrome lever without box and gold clip and cap band, but it only has one cap band so is it still a stalwart or is it something else as it is the correct size for a stalwart

[zslane]

The color of the metal bits seems to me an unreliable vector for determining the model. It seems that Waterman would use whatever combinations of gold and non-gold came to mind when a new pen was going to be made. I have a "Made in Canada" Stalwart/Dauntless with chrome bits everywhere except for the single gold cap band. Go figure. I have no idea if Waterman called this a Stalwart or a Dauntless, and I don't believe we can tell just from the combination of metal colors found on it.

Edited June 11, 2018 by zslane

[Shinyblue]

Another 6 years and still no clarity on Dauntless and Stalwart. However the trimmings do seem to have some bearing on the name:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ECXh4ngIxVzu0ylZ81FGIBYn7W28zF_b/view

In this brochure the Dauntless has non-gold trimmings and the Stalwart gold. Otherwise they are exactly the same pens.

 

It doesn't help me with my Canadian "Stalwart". The size, colour and trimmings are all Stalwart but mine has three cap bands: narrow-wide-narrow.