Learning Spencerian...

[hlyuqi]

Finally started working on the lower case again. This nonsense letter was done with a 101, and I find that while I can't get the hairlines I want with it, it's more forgiving on cheap paper than the 303. I had off work tonight, so decided to get a little practice in. I'm still really liking Madarasz's work, and some of his stuff was downright tiny. His slope on some of his work also approaches like 42 degrees in some cases. Yikes. The only thing I really don't care for is the style of single line descenders he and many others employ. I much prefer the looped descenders, but need to work on making them more subtle.

 

Salman...your hand eventually catches up with your eye, and it almost feels connected to it after awhile. It's actually a pretty cool feeling, and you get to the point where you can pretty much consistently place the line where you want it in a given flourish. One tip I remember reading a while back was to look ahead to where you wanted the line to go, not where the pen or the line was at any given moment. Darned if it doesn't work.

 

Your Capital S is so nice!

[Mickey]

Salman, the most obvious mistake I see in your practice sheet is not finishing some letters, most especially the letter 'o', before beginning the next letter. Notice your writing of the name John. (BTW, capitals are usually not joined to the subsequent letters.) You begin the letter h before you completed the letter o, which needs its own finishing stroke, much as if it were at the end of a word. Other than that, yours is a pretty good start. Keep in mind that spacing is an important aspect of the Spencerian style and it is not as automatic as in Copperplate. It really takes a lot of 'eyeballing' to look right. Take a look at Bierce's offerings. I think he's got a get sense of the characteristic spacing.

[Bryony]

Hi there,

I somehow stumbled upon this site while i was researching 'artists journals' I now have been inspired to improve my own handwriting and to learn a new one (as well as start my art journal and watercolour)

 

I have ordered the spencerian copybook pack and a noodlers ahab flex fountain pen as a cheap start to all this

 

Any pointers or practice i could do/learn before my equipment arrives?

 

Thank you,

Bryony

Edited January 29, 2012 by Bryony

[smk]

Salman, the most obvious mistake I see in your practice sheet is not finishing some letters, most especially the letter 'o', before beginning the next letter. Notice your writing of the name John. (BTW, capitals are usually not joined to the subsequent letters.) You begin the letter h before you completed the letter o, which needs its own finishing stroke, much as if it were at the end of a word. Other than that, yours is a pretty good start. Keep in mind that spacing is an important aspect of the Spencerian style and it is not as automatic as in Copperplate. It really takes a lot of 'eyeballing' to look right. Take a look at Bierce's offerings. I think he's got a get sense of the characteristic spacing.

 

Thanks for pointing this out. It did look a bit out of whack in places. Spacing is supposed to be equal to the height of the letters and in some cases 1-1/4 of the height (e.g. when joining to an 'n') according to the Spencer's New Standard Writing that I'm using as a reference. This practice sheet is based on the exercises prescribed in Practical Penmanship here where the 'J' is joined to the 'o'. They do have a dip after the 'o' that I missed - I'm glad you caught it.

 

Hi there,

I somehow stumbled upon this site while i was researching 'artists journals' I now have been inspired to improve my own handwriting and to learn a new one (as well as start my art journal and watercolour)

 

I have ordered the spencerian copybook pack and a noodlers ahab flex fountain pen as a cheap start to all this

 

Any pointers or practice i could do/learn before my equipment arrives?

 

Thank you,

Bryony

 

Welcome Bryony. Its good to have company in our quest for learning.

 

I'm not sure a flex fountain pen will provide the sort of feel a holder and dip pen nibs do. You can get a good setup going with a holder or two and some nibs for less than $10. I really like the Zebra G nibs for Spencerian.

 

I had some luck practicing with a mechanical pencil. It helped with some of the fluency I wasn't used to and is quite forgiving of any accidental pressure one might be unaware of while learning. Give it a try and see if it helps you get a head start.

 

Its good to have you along.

 

Salman

[Mickey]

Salman, the most obvious mistake I see in your practice sheet is not finishing some letters, most especially the letter 'o', before beginning the next letter. Notice your writing of the name John. (BTW, capitals are usually not joined to the subsequent letters.) You begin the letter h before you completed the letter o, which needs its own finishing stroke, much as if it were at the end of a word. Other than that, yours is a pretty good start. Keep in mind that spacing is an important aspect of the Spencerian style and it is not as automatic as in Copperplate. It really takes a lot of 'eyeballing' to look right. Take a look at Bierce's offerings. I think he's got a get sense of the characteristic spacing.

 

Thanks for pointing this out. It did look a bit out of whack in places. Spacing is supposed to be equal to the height of the letters and in some cases 1-1/4 of the height (e.g. when joining to an 'n') according to the Spencer's New Standard Writing that I'm using as a reference.

 

I probably should have been more clear. Yes, that is the correct spacing. My point was, unlike in some hands, the proper spacing in Spencerian is not perfectly generated by its stroke geometry and that a certain amount of fudge factor needs to be applied by eye. That's what things like cross drills help develop (that and proper horizontal hand and paper movement).

 

BTW, that was excellent advice you gave to Bryony. Nearly any fine point is suitable for early practice (and general writing) and, unless one is left-handed, trying to produce stressed Spencerian with a straight flexible pen will more often frustrate than satisfy. Sitting side saddle to the desk AND rotating the paper is simply too disorienting for most beginners. (I know: I tried, with very limited success.) Right now, I'm looking for a good XXXF carry pen for Spencerian, and it will be a nail. I'll reserve my ornamental penmanship for my desk.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Mickey

[Bryony]

Thank you for the advice,

 

I am a bit confused about the mechanical pencil....my father said it was the type carpenters use (rectangular lead) and i though it was the one you use like a pen and click the lead into the shaft...

 

?

 

The good (and slightly terrifying) news is that my mum said she has a writing set from her grandfather with antique nibs ect that i could use.....but i think i will just gaze at it in amazement and try the pencil and get a cheap flex nib.....

[Mickey]

Thank you for the advice,

 

I am a bit confused about the mechanical pencil....my father said it was the type carpenters use (rectangular lead) and i though it was the one you use like a pen and click the lead into the shaft...

 

?

 

The good (and slightly terrifying) news is that my mum said she has a writing set from her grandfather with antique nibs ect that i could use.....but i think i will just gaze at it in amazement and try the pencil and get a cheap flex nib.....

 

I'm sure Salman is referring to a typical mechanical pencil, not a carpenter's pencil. Actually, any round 'lead' pencil will work for practicing monoline Spencerian (i.e., business hand with no shades). What you most need is a relatively sharp point, so the finer gel pens would also serve well. Remember, don't press; let the weight of the pencil or pen be the only pressure applied to the page. I'm not sure why mechanical pencils are recommended except that the lead can break off if one presses.

 

As for cheap equipment: an inexpensive oblique holder costs a couple of dollars (Speedball) and appropriate nibs cost between 1 and 2 dollars a piece. I would buy 10 or so nibs to start. They do wear out. The Nikko (or Zebra) G nib that Salmon recommended is an excellent nib for Spencerian (especially for beginners), as is the Gillott 404 and Hunt 56, among others. Save your grandfather's nibs until you know what you're doing and understand exactly what they are where they might be used most appropriately. There are a number of appropriate inks. Scan this thread and the similar Copperplate thread for suggestions.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Mickey

[smk]

 

I probably should have been more clear. Yes, that is the correct spacing. My point was, unlike in some hands, the proper spacing in Spencerian is not perfectly generated by its stroke geometry and that a certain amount of fudge factor needs to be applied by eye. That's what things like cross drills help develop (that and proper horizontal hand and paper movement).

 

 

Mickey - Its is I who should have been more clear. I understood your point perfectly and completely agree with the spacing issue apparent in my last practice sheet. I was only pointing out what I'm using as a reference - and not getting it yet :-)

 

 

Thank you for the advice,

 

I am a bit confused about the mechanical pencil....my father said it was the type carpenters use (rectangular lead) and i though it was the one you use like a pen and click the lead into the shaft...

 

?

 

The good (and slightly terrifying) news is that my mum said she has a writing set from her grandfather with antique nibs ect that i could use.....but i think i will just gaze at it in amazement and try the pencil and get a cheap flex nib.....

 

I'm sure Salman is referring to a typical mechanical pencil, not a carpenter's pencil. Actually, any round 'lead' pencil will work for practicing monoline Spencerian (i.e., business hand with no shades). What you most need is a relatively sharp point, so the finer gel pens would also serve well. Remember, don't press; let the weight of the pencil or pen be the only pressure applied to the page. I'm not sure why mechanical pencils are recommended except that the lead can break off if one presses.

 

 

Yup - that's what I meant. I like them for two reasons, the point stays sharp and if you get too excited and start applying pressure it breaks off to let you know you need to ease up.

 

A carpentar's pencil is excellent for trying out broad edged scripts. It forms a nice chisel edge and stays sharp for a surprisingly long time on account of the lead being quite hard. It doesn't give a dark like though.

 

Salman

[Mickey]

 

A carpentar's pencil is excellent for trying out broad edged scripts. It forms a nice chisel edge and stays sharp for a surprisingly long time on account of the lead being quite hard.

 

Salman

 

Absolutely. I used carpenter pencils when I learned Chancery a few decades back. BTW, I just ordered a new carry pen for monoline Spencer: a Platinum President with an ultra-extra-fine nib.

[Columba Livia]

This is the best I've written yet I think:

 

http://i.imgur.com/PXb2X.jpg

 

Improving, but there are still many issues e.g the gap between s and k, a and l, y and o is too wide (moving my hand too far to the right and not up enough), general inconsistent spacing, both forms of t need to be same height, ascenders. More practice and study.

 

Used a Leonardt Principle and Diamine Registrars ink.

[Columba Livia]

I've switched to using a straight pen holder and I think I'll keep on using it for now, since I find the finger movement and turns easier than with the oblique. In addition, the material I'm using to teach myself is Williams and Packard's Gems, which was originally printed in 1867 when everyone would have been using straight pen holders anyway.

 

One of the differences between script from this time and later Spencerian script/Ornamental writing was that the ascenders and descenders don't cross on the head and baseline, instead about half a space above or below. However after Platt Spencer's death, I believe his, sons must have modified the ascenders to cross on the head and baselines, amongst other changes.

 

Compare:

 

http://www.iampeth.com/books/spencer_compendium_1866/spencer_compendium_1866_page9.html (copyright date 1857, published 1866)

 

With:

 

http://www.iampeth.com/books/theory_of_spencerian/theory_of_spencerian_page18.html (1874)

 

http://i.imgur.com/Cesxi.jpg

Edited March 6, 2012 by Columba Livia

[Tomato]

Hi! I'm really new to all of this. I have terrible print so I thought it would be of benefit to learn some nice cursive, I really liked Spencerian so that's what I want to learn!

 

I'm using a H48. Peerless/Ziller Oblique Holder, plain ol' Higgins eternal ink, and G Zebra and Nikko nibs.

 

I started yesterday so I'm only through lower cases so far. I'm having problems especially with figuring how to apply pressure for the correct shading, and with my r's.

 

I've attached a sample. Please be gentle, I know I have a far way to go!!

 

Edited March 8, 2012 by Tomato

[smk]

Nice practice sheet Columba Livia. Thanks for keeping this thread alive.

 

Tomato - great to see another participant. You are off to a flying start - what are you using for instruction material. I found it easier to learn letters of similar shapes in groups rather than attempting the whole alphabet in one go - just like it was prescribed in the training manual I chose. You might want to give it a try that way.

 

I have not been able to practice as much as I wanted to this past month. I did practice now and then as time permitted but not nearly enough. I now have a couple of weeks of relatively free time where I can do some concentrated exercises. I still have the challenge of writing Spencerian 'at speed' i.e. with some degree of fluency, but finding it hard as I start to bring in elements of my everyday handwriting. The fix? I have decided to 'fix' my everyday hand and use the Business Hand as my standard writing.

 

While it may be an extreme step to give up my handwriting to learn Spencerian, it can't hurt to have a formal running cursive hand in my aresenal :-)

 

Will post exercise sheets soon.

 

Salman

[Tomato]

Hi Salman, thanks for the warm welcome and the compliment! I'm using "Learning to Write Spencerian" by Michael Sull. I'm actually not practicing by writing out the alphabet, I just wrote those out as a sample of how my letters are coming out so far. I was going through the alphabet one letter at a time, but I think I will try similar letters per your suggestion!

 

 

Currently, I'm trying to get in at least 30 minutes of practice a day, and I'm also slowly working it into my standard writing as I absolutely abhor my printed writing.

 

Does anyone have any tips on shading, besides the necessity of practicing? I couldn't find a section in Mr. Sull's workbook that talked about it in depth and using a nib is completely new to me.

[Mickey]

Shading, in Spencerian, is optional. Where shaded strokes are permissible is shown in Mr. Sull's book, but not why or where one should omit otherwise legal shades. That decision is ultimately a matter of taste, as was discussed recently in another thread. Don't worry much about shading for now. Learn the letter forms, proper spacing, and where shades may be placed (and were they MUST NOT be placed), and don't worry about the more extravagant shading possible in the style. That you will come to learn as you become more proficient in the basics and have had time to study the works of the master penmen of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

 

I have some personal notes from Mr. Sull and there isn't a shaded letter in any of them.

[DanF]

Just found this thread tonight. I was trying to access allunderone, the site which has the guideline generator that you folks have mentioned, but I just get an error message "internal server error". Has anyone been able to get to it recently? I'd like to try the dual angle guide sheets. Thanks,

 

Also, what would the recommendation be for writing aids: the Michael Sull Learning to Write Spencerian, and Practice Pack, or the book and set of 5 copybooks by Spencer himself which are available from Amazon Amazon.com: Spencerian Penmanship (Theory Book plus five copybooks) (9780880620963): Platt Rogers Spencer: Books

 

I think I would definitely benefit from a copy sheet approach, having the example right at the top of the page.

 

Dan

Edited March 27, 2012 by DanF

[Mickey]

Just found this thread tonight. I was trying to access allunderone, the site which has the guideline generator that you folks have mentioned, but I just get an error message "internal server error". Has anyone been able to get to it recently? I'd like to try the dual angle guide sheets. Thanks,

 

Also, what would the recommendation be for writing aids: the Michael Sull Learning to Write Spencerian, and Practice Pack, or the book and set of 5 copybooks by Spencer himself which are available from Amazon Amazon.com: Spencerian Penmanship (Theory Book plus five copybooks) (9780880620963): Platt Rogers Spencer: Books

 

I think I would definitely benefit from a copy sheet approach, having the example right at the top of the page.

 

Dan

 

I have both and favor the Sull materials. The facsimile copy books are perfectly good (I bought those first), but the Sull book updates (slightly) a few of the letter forms (most notably the lower case 'c'), shows more alternate forms, and is generally easier to follow. The Sull practice materials come in pad form, so you can photocopy them easily to the paper of your choice and repeat the exercises as often as you need. Finally, the Sull book assumes self-study, whereas the original materials assume a teacher. If you can afford it, get both. Both are excellent.

[DanF]

Thanks Mickey. I see that the allunderone site is back up today.

 

Dan

[nunez]

Interesting thread gents. Most interesting.

 

Does anyone any sources for downloading copybooks? Interestingly, I was unable to find any, not even on the IAMPETH site. Guidesheets, old lesson books, heaps of other good material, yes; copybooks, no. By this I mean a row of letters to practice across the top, and some guides below to reproduce the letters.

 

I know about the ones from Sull and another put out by Mott publishing, but with so much material out of copyright (like the books on IAMPETH) and available for download, I'm surprised there's no copybooks. Have I just missed them?

 

Cheers,

- SteveN

[nunez]

How did you create these templets? Do you have a whole set you could upload? I'd like to give them a try. Smaller would be better (at least for me). The loops on the 0.5 ones are huge. Or are they this way by design because you're working the whole arm?

 

Cheers,

- Steve

 

 

 

Here are a couple of templates I'm using to work on whole arm movement.

 

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7034/6737645261_302cf0b0e4_z.jpg

practice1 by myyrkezaan, on Flickr

 

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7006/6737645419_e39b8ea4fd_z.jpg

practice2 by myyrkezaan, on Flickr