Learning Spencerian...

[fuchsiaprincess]

here's my first practice sheet from last night. having a lot of trouble keeping the pressure consistent, especially on the downstroke. and i think on the ovals i was using too much finger muscles and have to learn to use either my wrist or whole arm to keep the curves from becoming shaky. it's quite diffetent because of the sharper corners compared to copperplate

 

I've got a question - the 'loops' towards the bottom of the page….. does one turn the paper around, or move the arm?

 

Hope you don't think that is a silly question!

 

Thanks!

[Mickey]

here's my first practice sheet from last night. having a lot of trouble keeping the pressure consistent, especially on the downstroke. and i think on the ovals i was using too much finger muscles and have to learn to use either my wrist or whole arm to keep the curves from becoming shaky. it's quite diffetent because of the sharper corners compared to copperplate

 

I've got a question - the 'loops' towards the bottom of the page….. does one turn the paper around, or move the arm?

 

Hope you don't think that is a silly question!

 

Thanks!

 

No page turning is necessary. That technique is sometimes used in copperplate (or possibly ornamental penmanship) to apply shades to what are normally push strokes. Spencerian is handwriting and, as Ken pointed out, handwriting shouldn't require that sort of page turning or unusual manipulation of the pen. As for what moves, the answer is 'whatever is necessary.' This is the essence (I believe) of 'whole arm', not a total absence of finger movement. At normal scales, I think its easier to get a properly shaped descender pulling the stroke from the shoulder. This is especially true if I don't wish to shade the stroke. This is not so much a conscious effort to move the arm as it is feeling the source of the energy.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Mickey

[fuchsiaprincess]

here's my first practice sheet from last night. having a lot of trouble keeping the pressure consistent, especially on the downstroke. and i think on the ovals i was using too much finger muscles and have to learn to use either my wrist or whole arm to keep the curves from becoming shaky. it's quite diffetent because of the sharper corners compared to copperplate

 

I've got a question - the 'loops' towards the bottom of the page….. does one turn the paper around, or move the arm?

 

Hope you don't think that is a silly question!

 

Thanks!

 

No page turning is necessary. That technique is sometimes used in copperplate (or possibly ornamental penmanship) to apply shades to what are normally push strokes. Spencerian is handwriting and, as Ken pointed out, handwriting shouldn't require that sort of page turning or unusual manipulation of the pen. As for what moves, the answer is 'whatever is necessary.' This is the essence (I believe) of 'whole arm', not a total absence of finger movement. At normal scales, I think its easier to get a properly shaped descender pulling the stroke from the shoulder. This is especially true if I don't wish to shade the stroke. This is not so much a conscious effort to move the arm as it is feeling of the source of the energy.

 

Thank you very much, Mickey!

 

Regards,

Soki

[kensuguro]

wow, I just got a cheap speedball oblique pen and wow.. I must say I was wasting my time frustrating myself with the noodler's flex pen. Practice is practice, and I was able to write big with noodler's and still do the shades but realistically, I think you can only write smaller (single line height) with a proper nib. At least for me, the fact that you can make such thin lines makes a huge difference in the results, especially the shades.

 

I think it helps quite a bit because now, even with all the inconsistencies and what not, at least I can mentally connect what I'm writing to the examples. Before, they visually looked so different that it was hard for me to compare to the examples. Like the just registered as two different things. Anyway, this thing is like crack. Maybe I switched just at the right timing, having done a bunch of huge letters with flex nib, shifted to using mostly arms and shoulders, etc.. But it seems like without the oblique pen, it's too difficult to get that spencerian look..

 

I have a question for dip pen people.. I have a bottle of noodler's black, but the bottle opening is too narrow to stick the oblique pen into. I'm tipping the ink to get it on the nib, but there's gotta be a better way. Do you guys just use containers with larger openings? I was thinking of putting some ink in a bottle cap or something small, but realized that if I don't use the ink I'd have to put it back. Not sure what ink is made of, but does it rot? In my mind I was imagining it'd be like taking butter out into a separate container, using it, and then putting it back.. I just contaminated my butter. But maybe ink isn't like that.

 

(don't look at my capitals, still working on them. just ignore them, as if they weren't there. lol)

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/396273_10150482321425642_587250641_8732946_743305755_n.jpg

Edited January 15, 2012 by kensuguro

[Mickey]

Welcome to the world of oblique holders. From the example you posted, it looks like you're finally well on your way.

 

I think there's too much emphasis on shadng, so I was impressed you mentioned the quality of the hairlines. If I were to name two things which separates real penman from ink slingers*, it is being able to produce pull stroke hairlines every bit as fine as push strokes and to produce beautiful monoline (in whatever hand).

 

* I'm a veteran ink slinger with long unfulfilled aspirations to become a penman, but I haven't yet given up hope.

[kensuguro]

Welcome to the world of oblique holders. From the example you posted, it looks like you're finally well on your way.

 

I think there's too much emphasis on shadng, so I was impressed you mentioned the quality of the hairlines. If I were to name two things which separates real penman from ink slingers*, it is being able to produce pull stroke hairlines every bit as fine as push strokes and to produce beautiful monoline (in whatever hand).

 

* I'm a veteran ink slinger with long unfulfilled aspirations to become a penman, but I haven't yet given up hope.

 

I agree. Consistent hairline I feel takes way more concentration and flow, and since the dip nib is so thin, it seems to magnify any sort of bad muscle movement. Probably why I can't put this thing down.. most of the time it's squiggly here or there, but when I get even 1 word with good consistency, then my eyes light up and I write some more. This is really addicting. Though it's probably true my eyes can't even pick up all the mistakes I'm making but whatever, I'm just having fun.

 

Still trying to understand how the dip nib handles, but overall it's way more straight forward than coaxing results from the noodler's nib. Not to put down noodler's flex too much though. I don't think it was designed specifically to do Spencerian style hairlines. It's still going to be my go to every day writing pen, esp now that I've practice a (bleep) load on it.

 

edit:

lmao!! I can't say (colloquial form of "manure" that starts with a c and ends with a p) haha

Edited January 16, 2012 by kensuguro

[fuchsiaprincess]

wow, I just got a cheap speedball oblique pen and wow.. I must say I was wasting my time frustrating myself with the noodler's flex pen. Practice is practice, and I was able to write big with noodler's and still do the shades but realistically, I think you can only write smaller (single line height) with a proper nib. At least for me, the fact that you can make such thin lines makes a huge difference in the results, especially the shades.

 

I think it helps quite a bit because now, even with all the inconsistencies and what not, at least I can mentally connect what I'm writing to the examples. Before, they visually looked so different that it was hard for me to compare to the examples. Like the just registered as two different things. Anyway, this thing is like crack. Maybe I switched just at the right timing, having done a bunch of huge letters with flex nib, shifted to using mostly arms and shoulders, etc.. But it seems like without the oblique pen, it's too difficult to get that spencerian look..

 

I have a question for dip pen people.. I have a bottle of noodler's black, but the bottle opening is too narrow to stick the oblique pen into. I'm tipping the ink to get it on the nib, but there's gotta be a better way. Do you guys just use containers with larger openings? I was thinking of putting some ink in a bottle cap or something small, but realized that if I don't use the ink I'd have to put it back. Not sure what ink is made of, but does it rot? In my mind I was imagining it'd be like taking butter out into a separate container, using it, and then putting it back.. I just contaminated my butter. But maybe ink isn't like that.

 

(don't look at my capitals, still working on them. just ignore them, as if they weren't there. lol)

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/396273_10150482321425642_587250641_8732946_743305755_n.jpg

 

That is beautiful! You have a very steady hand

 

In terms of ink holders, I have found small jam jars (the single serve ones) are very convenient. Otherwise, you can pick up salt dishes etc. quick cheaply from bric-a-brac stores. Shot glasses are also very useful.

 

Hope this helps!

[smk]

Salman...your hand eventually catches up with your eye, and it almost feels connected to it after awhile.

 

Bierce - another lovely and inspiring example.

 

I have not had the opportunity to practice lately but I have seen glimpses of the connection...its a sweet feeling when you get in the flow. I noticed that I use the two fingernail drag method for my regular handwriting. I have probably been doing it all along without realizing it. The strange thing is that I can't seem to use that method without conscious effort for Spencerian. However, this 'discovery' gives me hope.

 

Salman

[sniper910]

kensuguro-i have that problem also. if the noodlers ink has an eye dropper, i just drop a little bit onto the underside of the nib, covering a little past the breather hole. that has worked for me for quite a while, since i started learning copperplate. besides that i'd use shot glasses or anything with a wide opening like fuchsiaprincess mentioned. your practice sheets look good so far. i need to get going with mine. hopefully over this coming weekend i can get some practice in

[sniper910]

here's my first practice sheet from last night. having a lot of trouble keeping the pressure consistent, especially on the downstroke. and i think on the ovals i was using too much finger muscles and have to learn to use either my wrist or whole arm to keep the curves from becoming shaky. it's quite diffetent because of the sharper corners compared to copperplate

 

I've got a question - the 'loops' towards the bottom of the page….. does one turn the paper around, or move the arm?

 

Hope you don't think that is a silly question!

 

Thanks!

 

No page turning is necessary. That technique is sometimes used in copperplate (or possibly ornamental penmanship) to apply shades to what are normally push strokes. Spencerian is handwriting and, as Ken pointed out, handwriting shouldn't require that sort of page turning or unusual manipulation of the pen. As for what moves, the answer is 'whatever is necessary.' This is the essence (I believe) of 'whole arm', not a total absence of finger movement. At normal scales, I think its easier to get a properly shaped descender pulling the stroke from the shoulder. This is especially true if I don't wish to shade the stroke. This is not so much a conscious effort to move the arm as it is feeling of the source of the energy.

 

Thank you very much, Mickey!

 

Regards,

Soki

 

i was using my finger muscles to do the curves, which is why they look so shaky at the curves. i've been practicing and found it much smoother to use my whole arm or hand instead of just my fingers. i hope this helps...

[Bierce]

Thanks to both Soki and Salman for the kind words. After I saw the great looking practice sheet that Salman did with floating hand, I figured I'd better get on the stick as well. What a difference in the hairlines as well as the overall look.

 

It felt completely foreign at first, but I'm starting to get comfortable with it. I'm a southpaw, so unfortunately I can't just follow the manuals from the old days (lefties were evil, straight from the bowels of hell, doncha know...they weren't even addressed in those books...LOL), and just reversing everything doesn't work.

 

Trying to find the right penhold to have the pinky support the hand took a bit, but I think I have it figured out.

 

Well, back to the shed we go for a few weeks.

 

Kensuguro...your practice sheet looks like you've got a great touch. I look forward to seeing how great it gets.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Bierce

[caliken]

I'm a southpaw, so unfortunately I can't just follow the manuals from the old days (lefties were evil, straight from the bowels of hell, doncha know...they weren't even addressed in those books...LOL), and just reversing everything doesn't work.

 

This video from another southpaw, may be of interest.

 

And here's another one.

 

Ken

Edited January 19, 2012 by caliken

[Bierce]

Thanks for those links Ken. I'll definitely check them out next time I get to the library (I live in one of twenty seven houses left on the planet with dialup).

 

I looked at a couple of DeCollibus' clips after starting to realize how big a deal getting the hand up actually might be (largely courtesy of this thread), and wanted to see how a lefty might go about it (actually, just wanted to make sure it was possible before putting a lot of time into reinventing a wheel). At this point, the finer lines possible seem to be well worth the setback of relearning fine control. Here's my latest with hand off the page, no finger movement. Nothing to write home about, but I am optimistic about the potential improvement if I can get this technique in the bag:

 

 

This was done with 303, and a nice side benefit of this method is the considerable decrease in the tendency for the tines to grab the paper.

 

I think Salman had mentioned having to make the conscious effort to lift the hand each time he habitually put the palm back down, and that's pretty much where I am as well. We shall see.

[caliken]

Bierce,

 

Your "Spencerian" is a beautiful example of controlled, smooth writing.

 

The links I gave above, are by DeCollibus and are probably the ones you've already seen.

 

Ken

Edited January 20, 2012 by caliken

[myyrkezaan]

Here are a couple of templates I'm using to work on whole arm movement.

 

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7034/6737645261_302cf0b0e4_z.jpg

practice1 by myyrkezaan, on Flickr

 

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7006/6737645419_e39b8ea4fd_z.jpg

practice2 by myyrkezaan, on Flickr

[Hex]

Here are a couple of templates I'm using to work on whole arm movement.

 

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7034/6737645261_302cf0b0e4_z.jpg

practice1 by myyrkezaan, on Flickr

 

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7006/6737645419_e39b8ea4fd_z.jpg

practice2 by myyrkezaan, on Flickr

 

Myrrh, do you just try and emulate these forms, or did you print it out and try and write on top of them ?

 

Thanks

[myyrkezaan]

Myrrh, do you just try and emulate these forms, or did you print it out and try and write on top of them ?

 

Thanks

 

Mostly writing on top, those 2 are the test pages, I have individual pages for each of the shapes (example below) that I go through and then do 1 of the test pages. When doing the other pages I do it faster than my normal speed, circles and ovals 6 times, all others 4 times. When doing the test pages speed is slightly slower than normal and 3 times for each shape.

 

Occasionally I'll do it without tracing to see how its working and some when note taking at work and it is getting better.

 

Those shapes are 0.5" based because I could hardly control it any smaller when I started, I also have them at 0.4", 0.3" and 0.2", which I haven't started yet.

 

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7152/6743933563_576f513c36_m.jpg

practice-3 by myyrkezaan, on Flickr

[smk]

I have not had much time for practice lately but have been working on the minuscule words. I don't have access to a scanner but would like to share what I have done today.

 

 

Although I'm not totally in control of all letter combinations I think its time to move on to including some of the majuscules.

 

I have reverted to resting the side of my palm on the paper. I find it hard to keep my speed in check when writing with the floating method. I found, somewhat to my surprise, that I use the floating method for my regular handwriting - this causes me to speed up when I should be concentrating on form.

 

Salman

[JimP]

OH D.A.N.G!!!!!! Just when I was getting frustrated, you go and post that. Well played Sir!!! Please keep it coming folks - keep that carrot in front of us struggling.

 

Can you enlighten us on the holder and nib?? That is absolutely beautiful and - if nothing else - would make me want to practice more often.

[smk]

Jim - this is one of the many benefits of collaborative learning. We all inspire each other in different ways.

 

The holder is one of my own design made out of light Walnut wood. I quite like it and am making another one with slightly different lines in dark Walnut. I value your comment about a holder like that helping you want to practice more - a friend made a similar comment after receiving one of my holders (in a different design.)

 

The holder is fitted with a Zebra G nib that is quickly becoming a favorite.

 

Salman