Learning Spencerian...

[myyrkezaan]

Mickey, the video does show a combination of flex produced with fingers and the arm

 

Salman, I've watched this brief clip several dozen times, even stepping through it frame by frame, and I'm not convinced what it shows and what it doesn't. We see shades and we see finger movement. Whether the finger movements are responsible for shading, letter shaping, or some combination of the two cannot moment to moment be discerned conclusively in this video. We know that letters can be produced predominantly through finger action or entirely absent finger action and that shades can likewise be produced without or without significant finger movement. So what we see moment to moment in this or nearly any video without narration is open to debate, debate not likely to be resolved solely on the basis of what it seen, i.e., the video may be interesting but, as a technical document, it is largely opaque.

 

I watched that and other videos from him and some parts look like finger manipulation while others appear to have negligible finger movement on shading. These videos, for me, did not clear up anything, other than showing how awesome his abilities are .

 

Spencerian is more gestural than Copperplate, executed more rapidly, holistically. Copperplate is more obviously architectural, and beautiful Copperplate can be formed letter by letter, even stroke by stroke. I don't believe the same is possible in Spencerian. This conversation, by the way, is making me reevaluate my position on "whole arm." I'm coming to the opinion that superior Spencerian can be approached from no other perspective than whole arm. If this video showed me anything, it may be this.

 

Yay WAM .

[Bierce]

Working on getting the compound curve right; I'm finding it more difficult to control than I thought it would be. These done with 303 on pretty lousy paper. I haven't found the right settings on the scanner yet to capture the wispy thins that the 303 is capable of which is a shame as they really add to the overall look of pointed pen work in the originals.

 

 

 

[texaspenman]

Working on getting the compound curve right; I'm finding it more difficult to control than I thought it would be. These done with 303 on pretty lousy paper. I haven't found the right settings on the scanner yet to capture the wispy thins that the 303 is capable of which is a shame as they really add to the overall look of pointed pen work in the originals.

 

 

 

 

Fantastic!!!! You are WELL on your way!

[kensuguro]

I have a question about shading.. I'm still just using noodler's flex nib (it's all I have) and have trouble controlling ink flow as I recover from a shade. When I flex to shade, ink flow increases but as I ease off the flex, while the tines close again, it seems like the increased ink flow created by the flex remains for a while after the flex. I'm guessing it's much less of an issue with proper pointed nibs. But what are you supposed to do?

 

Slowing down as I recover from a flex seems to help "empty" the extra ink... But that's all I can think of. Maybe it's that the paper doesn't absorb enough of the ink for the flow to go back to normal in time. I'm not really sure if it's a technique thing or a hardware issue. Just been having trouble going back to default line width right after a capital with shade.

 

I'm asking this because Beirce's example shows a speedy (or appropriate) transition back to the hairline.

Edited January 11, 2012 by kensuguro

[caliken]

When I flex to shade, ink flow increases but as I ease off the flex, while the tines close again, it seems like the increased ink flow created by the flex remains for a while after the flex. I'm guessing it's much less of an issue with proper pointed nibs. But what are you supposed to do?

Slowing down as I recover from a flex seems to help "empty" the extra ink...

 

It sounds as though your nib lacks "snap-back" - the ability of tines to close up again quickly as soon as pressure is released. It is possible to find fountain pens with good snap-back, but they are quite rare and expensive; and it's even rarer to find a fountain pen nib which can match writing with a dip nib in an oblique holder.

 

Ken

Edited January 11, 2012 by caliken

[smk]

... I'm guessing it's much less of an issue with proper pointed nibs. But what are you supposed to do?

 

Slowing down as I recover from a flex seems to help "empty" the extra ink... But that's all I can think of.....

 

 

There's not much you can do about the ink flow or the speed of the tines snapping back. I got good results from reshaping the tip a bit and grinding it to be finer. Part of the problem can be solved by reducing the amount of ink the tip drags out behind it after the shade has been laid down.

 

I can provide details of what I did if your are interested.

 

Salman

[Flake]

with the noodler's flex nib, since the tip and the feed are friction fit you can try shoving the feed down further/slide the nib up and get more ink delivered to the tip. Might be worth a try

[JimP]

- deleted- -security issue

Edited January 11, 2012 by JimP

[Bierce]

I find that snapback issues can be controlled somewhat through speed of execution. The first S's shade was produced whole arm at pretty good speed with the 303. The second S's shade was executed whole arm, but with the shaded portion significantly slowed down, giving the tines more time to resume their resting state. Notice how much longer the first shade is. There definitely is a tradeoff of control though. It is more difficult for me to control a shade executed slowly than quickly, but as I practice, I'm gradually finding it easier to put the shade where I want it.

 

[smk]

Bierce - these look superb to me. I can't even imagine making three strokes intersect so perfectly regardless of whether I do it quickly or deliberately.

 

Salman

[Mickey]

In my search to find truly useful guide sheets, I did a little experiment this morning. Using the guide generator that Hugh found, I printed up a couple of sheets at my usual x height and included a slant line at 60 degrees below vertical. This is the characteristic angle (30 degrees above horizontal) for most push strokes in Spencerian. Lo and behold, my letter forms improved immediately and the spacing became more regular and characteristically Spencerian. After a while, even the 52 main slant lines become more regular and repeatable.

 

I highly recommend giving this a try.

[caliken]

In my search to find truly useful guide sheets, I did a little experiment this morning. Using the guide generator that Hugh found, I printed up a couple of sheets at my usual x height and included a slant line at 60 degrees below vertical. This is the characteristic angle (30 degrees above horizontal) for most push strokes in Spencerian. Lo and behold, my letter forms improved immediately and the spacing became more regular and characteristically Spencerian. After a while, even the 52 main slant lines become more regular and repeatable.

 

I highly recommend giving this a try.

Mickey,

Are you describing the same idea as this grid for italic which was posted some time ago?

 

italic guidelines

Edited January 11, 2012 by caliken

[JimP]

OK - here's practice session #3. You can see I have a looooong way to go. I went to the design site posted and designed some guidelines but not sure I used the right input factors. I also don't know how to use the guideline sheets. I ordered the practice pack and such by Sull from John Neal's.

 

Guess I'm posting this just to see the improvement in the coming months....Jim

[Mickey]

In my search to find truly useful guide sheets, I did a little experiment this morning. Using the guide generator that Hugh found, I printed up a couple of sheets at my usual x height and included a slant line at 60 degrees below vertical. This is the characteristic angle (30 degrees above horizontal) for most push strokes in Spencerian. Lo and behold, my letter forms improved immediately and the spacing became more regular and characteristically Spencerian. After a while, even the 52 main slant lines become more regular and repeatable.

 

I highly recommend giving this a try.

Mickey,

Are you describing the same idea as this grid for italic which was posted some time ago?

 

italic guidelines

 

Exactly (though I suggested using the guideline generator which Hugh found). Letter shape and default spacing are dependent on both angles, and lacking the quality of tactile feedback provided by edged pens, Spencerian penmen must rely more heavily on the eye to train the hand. All Spencerian minuscules begin with a push stroke on the lower angle, so initially tying practice work (and the eye) to it, rather than to a 52 degree mark, seems more sensible to me.

 

Consider the minuscule 'l.' It begins (push) on the 30 degrees axis, turns, then loops back (pull) on the 52 degree axis, and finishes with a 30 degree push. With 52 degree only guidelines, you are guessing at that first 30 degree stroke. The hand only learns correctly when your eye guesses right. With a 30 degree guideline, the first stroke is correctly imprinted every time, and the eye only has to guess the return angle, which is (more?) easily done through gauging the width of the loop. Likewise, the finishing stroke is almost certainly going to be correct. When the start and end strokes are firmly embedded, changing to 52 degree guides might be useful. (I suspect that using guideline with both 52 and 30 degree marks wouldn't train the eye as quickly.)

 

For children learning their first hand, I suspect the difference might not be significant, but for those of us learning our 3rd or 4th cursive hand, this sort of change to the training regimen might be a real boon.

[Mickey]

OK - here's practice session #3. You can see I have a looooong way to go. I went to the design site posted and designed some guidelines but not sure I used the right input factors. I also don't know how to use the guideline sheets. I ordered the practice pack and such by Sull from John Neal's.

 

Guess I'm posting this just to see the improvement in the coming months....Jim

 

I see you gradually corrected your slant angle as you went along. Good. You might also print up some conventional 52 degree guides (input 38 degrees) to get that angle cemented in your eye, too. (The Sull practice materials are excellent, by the way.)

 

Welcome to the scratcher's lounge.

[Bierce]

Finally started working on the lower case again. This nonsense letter was done with a 101, and I find that while I can't get the hairlines I want with it, it's more forgiving on cheap paper than the 303. I had off work tonight, so decided to get a little practice in. I'm still really liking Madarasz's work, and some of his stuff was downright tiny. His slope on some of his work also approaches like 42 degrees in some cases. Yikes. The only thing I really don't care for is the style of single line descenders he and many others employ. I much prefer the looped descenders, but need to work on making them more subtle.

 

Salman...your hand eventually catches up with your eye, and it almost feels connected to it after awhile. It's actually a pretty cool feeling, and you get to the point where you can pretty much consistently place the line where you want it in a given flourish. One tip I remember reading a while back was to look ahead to where you wanted the line to go, not where the pen or the line was at any given moment. Darned if it doesn't work.

 

[fuchsiaprincess]

Spencerian is more gestural than Copperplate, executed more rapidly, holistically. Copperplate is more obviously architectural, and beautiful Copperplate can be formed letter by letter, even stroke by stroke. I don't believe the same is possible in Spencerian. This conversation, by the way, is making me reevaluate my position on "whole arm." I'm coming to the opinion that superior Spencerian can be approached from no other perspective than whole arm. If this video showed me anything, it may be this.

 

You are absolutely correct there, Mickey. I attempted my first practise session today. After two US letter pages, my arm/shoulder is tired

 

This is more tough-going than Copperplate, I have found. Nevertheless, I am enjoying it very much so.

[fuchsiaprincess]

Finally started working on the lower case again. This nonsense letter was done with a 101, and I find that while I can't get the hairlines I want with it, it's more forgiving on cheap paper than the 303. I had off work tonight, so decided to get a little practice in. I'm still really liking Madarasz's work, and some of his stuff was downright tiny. His slope on some of his work also approaches like 42 degrees in some cases. Yikes. The only thing I really don't care for is the style of single line descenders he and many others employ. I much prefer the looped descenders, but need to work on making them more subtle.

 

Salman...your hand eventually catches up with your eye, and it almost feels connected to it after awhile. It's actually a pretty cool feeling, and you get to the point where you can pretty much consistently place the line where you want it in a given flourish. One tip I remember reading a while back was to look ahead to where you wanted the line to go, not where the pen or the line was at any given moment. Darned if it doesn't work.

 

 

That is beautiful, Bierce!

[fuchsiaprincess]

I've had a chance to practice this week, and struggling a bit and would like some suggestions. I purchased the oblique holder, and the Nikko G nib and not quite sure how to properly make the motions. For example, I feel like I'm constantly "scratching" the paper and it often gets stuck as I move through the exercises. Is this normal, or am I possibly pressing too hard? Secondly, on pen position, are you to keep the pen above, at, or behind the first finger, third knuckle? Finally, are you supposed to keep the nib in one position relative to the paper, or at times do you rotate it through your fingers in order to create lighter/heavier lines.

 

Thanks for any guidance.

 

Wade

 

Hi Wade,

 

You are not alone. I, too, found the Nikko G nib extremely scratchy. I thought that perhaps it was the one particular nib, so I used a brand new one - same issue. Switched over toe Gillott 404 with much better results.

 

Regards,

Soki

[kensuguro]

started doing some of the lowercase shades. With the noodler's flex, I still can't get a fine enough line to write small, and the recovery is too slow so I ended up writing really big to keep a high ratio of default line to shaded line. Since going the arm and shoulder writing method, it's taken a while for my letters to become legible again, but it seems like the lines are settling.

 

I still can't write small with the arm and shoulder method though. I can move my arm and shoulders horizontally, and do the vertical movements with the wrists, but that's still shaky. Seems like using the wrist has just about the same results as just using arm and shoulders so maybe I should just stick to arm and shoulders only and see how far I can get. With big letters, it took several weeks of daily practice but at least I'm not doing the jittery lines anymore.

 

btw, I'm curious, what's the "target" size for spencerian? Right now, my letters are huge.. the full height letters being 3 lines tall.. that's too big. But it also seems like doing all this in 1 line height (as with regular writing) will make it look very cramped, and details lost due to default lines being too thick. Perhaps this isn't so much of an issue with dip pens since they have finer hairlines?

 

oh, and some of you probably noticed.. yes, these are words from Sull's book.

Edited January 15, 2012 by kensuguro