Learning Spencerian...

[TMLee]

Wonderfully useful pictures !!!!

[fuchsiaprincess]

There should be no twisting of the pen. Here is an example from IAMPETH, provided by Don and Ron Tate:

 

 

Thanks for the fantastic photos. I'm not sure if I can do this now….. I generally write with my hand resting on the paper (on the fleshy part of the edge of the palm). I don't know if I can write with a 'floating' hand, using only the ring and little fingers to steady the hand.

Edited January 9, 2012 by fuchsiaprincess

[myyrkezaan]

Thanks for the fantastic photos. I'm not sure if I can do this now….. I generally write with my hand resting on the paper (on the fleshy part of the edge of the palm). I don't know if I can write with a 'floating' hand, using only the ring and little fingers to steady the hand.

 

You might now be able to do it now, but with practice it does get easier and less weird feeling. You can start by practicing without a pen to get used to the feeling. Palm down, thumb and 2 first fingers on the table, bend last 2 fingers into the palm, rest hand and forearm on a table and just move it about. Or you can do it on the tips of all 5 fingers or just the tips of the last 2 fingers. And you can do this anywhere, anytime; in/out/circular motions not moving the elbow, sliding arm left and right moving elbow, anything on the drill/exercise pages.

[smk]

Mickey, I believe I use the fingers to generate flex for the shorter strokes, as in Spencerian miniscules, and the arm (forearm actually) for the longer shades.

 

 

Let's see if I can express myself more clearly. (Thinking out loud) Rolling the forearm (twisting the wrist) presses the nib. Unlike pressure applied solely by the fingers, the pressure is applied (more) in line with the nib (i.e., on the slant axis), putting equal pressure on the two tine. Pressing directly with the index finger will tend to put more pressure on the left tine than on the right*, unless some compensating action is taken. On the principle of keeping things as simple as possible, it makes sense to me to leave the fingers as inactive as possible and apply the force only (or mostly) through wrist rotation.

 

I haven't seen this explanation elsewhere, but to my mind it does explain why one might want to apply shades via wrist rotation rather than directly with the fingers. It may also help explain why writing circles and spiral is easier in one direction than in the other and why most people cant the nib inward in the holder, effectively pre-loading the right tine. Finally, as shades are applied more sparingly in Spencerian than in Copperplate, keeping the shading mechanism separate from the basic stroke strikes me as sensible.

 

* Remember, the nib in an oblique holder is nearly at right angles to the forearm and the fingers (take a look), which means that it is also nearly parallel to the rotation of the wrist, which is then parallel to the slant line.

 

Mickey, I did pay attention to how I write and I definitely use my fingers to apply pressure for the shades in smaller letters for both Copperplate and Spencerian. I'm not claiming this to be right, just what feels natural and controllable for me. In fact this may be holding me back in writing with a fluid motion. I'll experiment otherwise and see if I can get the hang of it.

 

Indeed upon viewing some of the videos I saw only one case of pressure being applied via the fingers so I'm surely in the minority here. In almost all cased it seemed like the pressure was applied with the arm as if the writer is wielding a brush.

 

Your explanation of the mechanics makes sense. However, I did not notice any sigh of a rocking motion in the videos on IAMPETH. It would be easy to miss though as the focus is on the nib and it would be hard to judge any rocking motion from whats visible of the hand.

 

Salman

 

Edited for grammar.

Edited January 9, 2012 by smk

[texaspenman]

There should be no twisting of the pen. Here is an example from IAMPETH, provided by Don and Ron Tate:

 

 

Thanks for the fantastic photos. I'm not sure if I can do this now….. I generally write with my hand resting on the paper (on the fleshy part of the edge of the palm). I don't know if I can write with a 'floating' hand, using only the ring and little fingers to steady the hand.

 

This is the hardest part of learning this hand in my opinion, but it serves a very important purpose. Your ring finger glides across the paper, allowing for Spencerian writing to be accomplished very quickly and without wrist fatigue. From speaking with experienced practitioners, it seems that the average time of mastery with daily practice is 8-9 months. After this much time of dedicated practice, one should be able to use full-arm and forearm movements to produce letters as small as 1/16th". This is why warmup exercises are so much more important than letters in the beginning stages. Practice makes perfect!

Edited January 9, 2012 by texaspenman

[myyrkezaan]

This is the hardest part of learning this hand in my opinion, but it serves a very important purpose. Your ring finger glides across the paper, allowing for Spencerian writing to be accomplished very quickly and without wrist fatigue. From speaking with experienced practitioners, it seems that the average time of mastery with daily practice is 8-9 months. After this much time of dedicated practice, one should be able to use full-arm and forearm movements to produce letters as small as 1/16th". This is why warmup exercises are so much more important than letters in the beginning stages. Practice makes perfect!

 

+2 on that, when I first started moving from the planted palm it just didn't seem possible and felt really awkward and not stable. Was on vacation last 2 weeks of December and started working on the movement with ovals and slants and it has helped, doesn't feel awkward, stability is still an issue but at least it feels more natural now.

[Mickey]

 

Mickey, I did pay attention to how I write and I definitely use my fingers to apply pressure for the shades in smaller letters for both Copperplate and Spencerian. I'm not claiming this to be right, just what feels natural and controllable for me. In fact this may be holding me back in writing with a fluid motion. I'll experiment otherwise and see if I can get a hang of it.

 

Indeed upon viewing some of the videos I saw only one case of pressure being applied via the fingers so I'm surely in the minority here. In almost all cased it seemed like the pressure was applied with the arm as if the writer is wielding a brush.

 

Your explanation of the mechanics makes sense. However, I did not notice any sigh of a rocking motion in the videos on IAMPETH. It would be easy to miss though as the focus is on the nib and it would be hard to judge any rocking motion from whats visible of the hand.

 

Salman

 

Salman, our discussion is at least as about feel as it is about mechanics. As was observed in both the Copperplate and Arm Writing threads, recognized experts often make contradictory statements about their own technique. We, as students, are forced to puzzle out what they really meant. This may be just another case of that.

 

I wouldn't consider advising you to change your approach, particularly in light of the remarkable progress you've made. I'm simply offering an alternative way of thinking about the task, one which might be useful to you (or someone else) at some later date when encountering a barrier to further progress. Sometimes a subtle shift of emphasis can yield huge dividends. For me, my capital stems improved markedly when I started thinking about "pulling" the shade toward my body (rotating the wrist) rather than simply pressing the nib with my fingers. How you or I actually apply the pressure is less important than the results.

 

As for your observations, it's difficult to see subtle motion in videos and even more difficult to interpret what one sees. What I attempted to explain would not be seen as a rocking motion, since the movement is in line with the nib, and, as the total rotation is small, it's doubtful it would be seen as distinct from other finger movements. The distinction is simply the source of the force, rotation of the wrist (forearm rotation) vs. contraction of muscles attached to the fingers. (N.b., pressure can also be applied by flexing the wrist. My suspicious is that all 3 source of movement are used and are, among the truly adept, well blended.)

[Wcwilson]

Just so I'm clear, the picture above says "Penman keeps his hand off the paper by using his ring finger and little finger", but then it says "He rests his hand on the paper".

 

So, does the palm touch either the paper or the desk? Does the forearm touch the paper or desk?

 

Finally, it appears from the picture the writer is keeping his palm fairly flat to the paper. I don't know if I'm just doing it incorrectly, but my palm wants to lay more on its side? What's correct?

 

Wade

[myyrkezaan]

Just so I'm clear, the picture above says "Penman keeps his hand off the paper by using his ring finger and little finger", but then it says "He rests his hand on the paper".

 

So, does the palm touch either the paper or the desk? Does the forearm touch the paper or desk?

 

Finally, it appears from the picture the writer is keeping his palm fairly flat to the paper. I don't know if I'm just doing it incorrectly, but my palm wants to lay more on its side? What's correct?

 

Wade

 

 

"Penman keeps his hand off the table and by using is ring finger and little finger by the nails touches the paper"

 

 

The position of his hand and the barred lines seem to be indicating that no part of the hand is touching the table and the hand is resting on the paper on the last 2 fingers. Looks like his middle finger is also brushing the paper, but don't know what to make of that.

[Mickey]

Just so I'm clear, the picture above says "Penman keeps his hand off the paper by using his ring finger and little finger", but then it says "He rests his hand on the paper".

 

So, does the palm touch either the paper or the desk? Does the forearm touch the paper or desk?

 

Finally, it appears from the picture the writer is keeping his palm fairly flat to the paper. I don't know if I'm just doing it incorrectly, but my palm wants to lay more on its side? What's correct?

 

Wade

 

Here's a consensus I've developed from the sources I've consulted. There are three major points of contact with the desk (in ascending order of pressure), the nib, the last 1 or 2 fingernails (or the nearby knuckles) of the writing hand, and the pad of forearm muscle near the elbow. (The palm may brush the paper. The writer should NOT lean on it. If one must lean, lean on the non-writing hand.) The majority of the pressure, still not much, is on the muscle pad near the elbow, which, being somewhat loose, allows a fair amount of movement without repositioning the arm.

 

The arm typically doesn't float above the desk; n.b., this statement mostly applies to flat desks. It is quite possible for the arm to "float" easily over a slanted desk, since the weight of the arm can be balanced over the elbow rather than held up by the upper arm, shoulder girdle, and back. BTW, many writing manuals recommends (or assume) the writer wears long sleeved shirts or a coat to facilitate repositioning (sliding) the arm.

[Wcwilson]

Just so I'm clear, the picture above says "Penman keeps his hand off the paper by using his ring finger and little finger", but then it says "He rests his hand on the paper".

 

So, does the palm touch either the paper or the desk? Does the forearm touch the paper or desk?

 

Finally, it appears from the picture the writer is keeping his palm fairly flat to the paper. I don't know if I'm just doing it incorrectly, but my palm wants to lay more on its side? What's correct?

 

Wade

 

Here's a consensus I've developed from the sources I've consulted. There are three major points of contact with the desk (in ascending order of pressure), the nib, the last 1 or 2 fingernails (or the nearby knuckles) of the writing hand, and the pad of forearm muscle near the elbow. (The palm may brush the paper. The writer should NOT lean on it. If one must lean, lean on the non-writing hand.) The majority of the pressure, still not much, is on the muscle pad near the elbow, which, being somewhat loose, allows a fair amount of movement without repositioning the arm.

 

The arm typically doesn't float above the desk; n.b., this statement mostly applies to flat desks. It is quite possible for the arm to "float" easily over a slanted desk, since the weight of the arm can be balanced over the elbow rather than held up by the upper arm, shoulder girdle, and back. BTW, many writing manuals recommends (or assume) the writer wears long sleeved shirts or a coat to facilitate repositioning (sliding) the arm.

 

Got it. Thanks.

[smk]

Here's my latest practice sheet. I think I have a fairly good understanding of the letter forms now. I still make mistakes e.g. the 'v' is half width but I made it wider.

 

 

What have I learned:

 

• 
   
  
• Learning this hand is as much about the positioning and balance as it is about learning how to make the letters. This has set me back a bit as I have a couple of habits that are not conducive to learning good Spencerian. These are:
  
  • I rest the side of the palm on the paper instead of the last two fingernails. This is fine for hands that are fairly slow to execute but hold me back in developing a good rhythm for Spencerian.
    
  • I use my forefinger and thumb to apply pressure for shaded strokes. While this allows for good form (from sheer practice I believe) I do change to applying the needed pressure with the arm for longer strokes. I see no reason for having two methods of applying pressure.
    

  [*]Writing words requires significant practice and rhythm. For me its akin to riding (or driving) in the desert where you need to plan three or four steps ahead so you can keep up the momentum. The exit strokes vary depending on what follows the letter you are writing and you need to plan at least one letter ahead.

 

Next steps:

• Continue practicing miniscules by writing words.
  
• Practice proper hand positioning and applying pressure with the arm/wrist across the board.
  

[smk]

I'm simply offering an alternative way of thinking about the task, one which might be useful to you (or someone else) at some later date when encountering a barrier to further progress. Sometimes a subtle shift of emphasis can yield huge dividends.

 

I get that. I have practiced a little without using my fingers to apply the pressure and I think this method would yield better results when writing 'at speed'. Your analysis has already helped me :-)

 

For me, my capital stems improved markedly when I started thinking about "pulling" the shade toward my body (rotating the wrist) rather than simply pressing the nib with my fingers. How you or I actually apply the pressure is less important than the results.

 

I think this is what I mean by applying pressure with the arm. I do use this 'pulling' method for longer strokes like the shade of an 'l' in Copperplate. I use this method exclusively for the majuscules as I cannot make them properly with finger pressure.

 

Salman

[smk]

 

Thanks for the fantastic photos. I'm not sure if I can do this now….. I generally write with my hand resting on the paper (on the fleshy part of the edge of the palm). I don't know if I can write with a 'floating' hand, using only the ring and little fingers to steady the hand.

 

Soki - I also have the habit of resting the side of my palm on the paper. I did a little practice keeping my hand in the recommended position using a mechanical pencil and it helped a lot. I have the tendency to put too much pressure on the nib when I lift my palm off the paper and using a pencil helps with getting over that as it doesn't catch if the pressure is too much.

 

Give it a try - it might help.

 

Salman

[caliken]

Salman,

 

Your latest exercise sheet looks really good, and you're successfully managing to negotiate the crossover from Copperplate to Spencerian!

 

I notice that your slope lines are a little wayward, but this will soon settle down at your rate of progress.

 

I've been reading with great interest, the intensive discussion on hand positioning on this thread.

 

I think that close study of the letters one by one, without using a pen, is also important because it's necessary to have an absolutely clear mental picture of the letter shapes, before attempting to write them.

 

Salman: this observation isn't meant to apply to you, of course, but is intended more as general advice to those starting out.

 

Ken

[texaspenman]

Here is a video of an excellent Spencerian Penman, Don Tate, in action. This should help in the analysis of shading techniques!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d0Ae-KsYis

[Mickey]

Here is a video of an excellent Spencerian Penman, Don Tate, in action. This should help in the analysis of shading techniques!

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't think it tells us much at all. Some of the shades are probably not produced by finger action (e.g., the A of Art) and some might be produced primarily by finger action (e.g., the left most shade on the P), but lacking a narrative or explanation from Mr. Tate, that's about it. (I suspect the straight vertical stroke on the P is probably finger generated, but who knows other than Mr. Tate?)

 

That's the problem with videos. Without a technical commentary, they tell us a fair amount about letter forms, but not all that much about technique nor aesthetic (e.g., why one possible shade and not another).

[sniper910]

Salman, your lettering looks impressive. So you wrote that with the palm resting on the paper? Have you tried writing with the floating hand method yet and how has it worked for you? I may try that method instead so I'm sure my progress will be much slower. But if I can get decent results with my regular writing method then I may put learning this new writing method on hold. I don't think I twist or rotate my nib when I write but it's something I will be keeping an eye on. Does everyone learning this choke high up on the pen while writing like in the pictures and video?

[smk]

Ken, thanks for the comment. I agree the slant is not as consistent as it should be. Also, the loops I make are thinner than in the exemplar. These things are more noticeable in the scan than on paper.

 

Sniper, this example was written with the floating hand method. I kept putting my palm down but picked it up as soon as I noticed it. Even though I have not practiced with this method much I think it makes the lettering easier, especially when writing words.

 

Mickey, the video does show a combination of flex produced with fingers and the arm. This is how I'm used to doing it. While the floating hand method doesn't preclude me from using the fingers for some of the shades, I really don't see any reason for doing it one way for some shades and the other way for others. Since applying pressure with the arm has wider applications I'm going to try to adopt that method exclusively, hoping to be more consistent all around.

 

The process of my realizing this was indeed helped by our discussion - which is one of the benefits of collaborative learning.

 

Salman

[Mickey]

 

Mickey, the video does show a combination of flex produced with fingers and the arm

 

Salman, I've watched this brief clip several dozen times, even stepping through it frame by frame, and I'm not convinced what it shows and what it doesn't. We see shades and we see finger movement. Whether the finger movements are responsible for shading, letter shaping, or some combination of the two cannot moment to moment be discerned conclusively in this video. We know that letters can be produced predominantly through finger action or entirely absent finger action and that shades can likewise be produced without or without significant finger movement. So what we see moment to moment in this or nearly any video without narration is open to debate, debate not likely to be resolved solely on the basis of what it seen, i.e., the video may be interesting but, as a technical document, it is largely opaque.

 

By way of analogy, one can't learn to play the violin watching and listening to concerts. At some point, conversation (interaction) with a violinist is needed. Even then, the conversation may confuse as much as illuminate, as what one does is often not what one thinks one does. Great performers are not necessarily good teachers.

 

Spencerian is more gestural than Copperplate, executed more rapidly, holistically. Copperplate is more obviously architectural, and beautiful Copperplate can be formed letter by letter, even stroke by stroke. I don't believe the same is possible in Spencerian. This conversation, by the way, is making me reevaluate my position on "whole arm." I'm coming to the opinion that superior Spencerian can be approached from no other perspective than whole arm. If this video showed me anything, it may be this.