Learning Spencerian...

[hughdrbf]

I can probably write one in flash that allows you to control all aspects of the grid and spits out a pdf. I saw the one linked from IAMPETH but that one's more about spacing and has no slant right? or did I miss it.

 

I use the generator you found and, while useful, it doesn't provide slant. Being able to dial in slant lines would be very handy.

 

Mickey,

 

Take a look at this resource. I've found it helpful.

 

Hugh

[Wcwilson]

Wow, that's got a lot of options. Stupid question, inserting 52 degrees doesn't give you the correct slant (at least it doesn't appear to). I assume it has something to do with a 90 degree angle, and maybe the correct input is 38? What would be the other recommended settings?

 

Wade

Edited January 4, 2012 by Wcwilson

[hughdrbf]

Wow, that's got a lot of options. Stupid question, inserting 52 degrees doesn't give you the correct slant (at least it doesn't appear to). I assume it has something to do with a 90 degree angle, and maybe the correct input is 38? What would be the other recommended settings?

 

Wade

 

Wade,

 

Good question. Slant angle is relative to either the vertical or horizontal axis. 52 degrees is relative to the horizontal axis, and 38 degrees is relative to the vertical axis. I don't recall which this resource uses as its reference, and I can't check right now, but try both and I'm sure you'll figure it out and get it the way you'd like.

 

Hugh

[myyrkezaan]

Its based off of 90, if you look at the bottom picture it shows slant angles increments of 5, 38 is correct for 52 and 60 for 30 if you wanted connect slope practice.

Edited January 4, 2012 by myyrkezaan

[sniper910]

here's my first practice sheet from last night. having a lot of trouble keeping the pressure consistent, especially on the downstroke. and i think on the ovals i was using too much finger muscles and have to learn to use either my wrist or whole arm to keep the curves from becoming shaky. it's quite diffetent because of the sharper corners compared to copperplate

[smk]

Sniper - this looks really good to me. The 'f's are really nice, the 'm's and 'n's are fairly consistent IMO - impressive for a first practice sheet!

 

Salman

[JimP]

OK folks, I'm in as well. In fact, I just tried a few practice lessons after using some of the tips here to get my old Cross pen up and running. (I know it should be an oblique holder...). My first few sheets are absolutely embarrassing. I'm going to go online and purchase the materials authored by Mr Sull (recommended by others) and do some studying. I was working off the sheets and instructions from IAMBETH. Sniper - if I can EVER get to the standard you are at right now, I'll be happy. Keep the traffic coming folks....Jim

 

edit: forgot - when I slow down I actually get sloppier. If I speed up fairly rapidly, I can get a rythm down but the form goes all to heck. I'm stubborn so will just start grinding out practice sessions and some studying in the hopes that things will improve.

Edited January 6, 2012 by JimP

[texaspenman]

here's my first practice sheet from last night. having a lot of trouble keeping the pressure consistent, especially on the downstroke. and i think on the ovals i was using too much finger muscles and have to learn to use either my wrist or whole arm to keep the curves from becoming shaky. it's quite diffetent because of the sharper corners compared to copperplate

 

I am still in the stage of developing control of my arm movements. The exercises look great! I am working right now with a pencil on the advice of Ron Tate, who told me that mechanical pencils are a good benchmark to practice with. Reasoning; mechanical pencils are finicky with pressure, which is useful in developing muscle memory of the appropriate pressure for Spencerian. I am still having trouble with moving my arm with any speed or with any accuracy... but improvement is slowly coming.

 

Sniper, you are an inspiration!

[texaspenman]

Here is a much less accomplished version of the above exercise:

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7035/6649887733_8dab4255c2_b.jpg

 

[sniper910]

Thank you everyone. Still got a long ways to go, especially with making curves with my whole arm since using just my fingers doesn't seem to work. because everything is written in hairlines, takes much more concentration for me to keep the pressure consistent, but it's a fun start. Can't wait to seen everyone else's sheets so we can all compare and share tips.

Salman-thanks! Coming from you is a compliment. I wAsnt sure about the spacing and corner angles. Hopefully I get that worked out before I pick up any bad habits.

 

JimP-thanks. I'm sure you'll do just fine. Having participated in salman's copperplate thread has helped with following a desired slope and pressure control. Although my copperplate is not that great yet and I feel I still have lots more practice to do, some experience with a flex nib has helped. And having the oblique holder makes such a huge difference. I like you didn't like lessons and practicing before, but after being convinced while learning copperplate about how necessary it is, I no longer mind the lessons anymore

 

Texas- thank you. The copperplate thread I mentioned above that salman started has helped a lot. The lesson was found on iampeth. Don't rush and just take your time. Maybe some practice sheets with the guidelines would help. The "if"s look not bad. Just need practice for the muscle control, which I need as well

[sniper910]

Can anyone tell me how to properly use gum Arabic for my ink? I got some today and not sure how to apply it. Do I add a drop or two and shake it or just let it sit, and for how long? Thanks

[smk]

Can anyone tell me how to properly use gum Arabic for my ink? I got some today and not sure how to apply it. Do I add a drop or two and shake it or just let it sit, and for how long? Thanks

 

If its liquid Gum Arabic, just add a couple of drops and stir a bit. If its in powder form sprinkle a couple of pinches onto the ink and let it sit for half an hour or a bit more, then stir and use the ink.

 

Salman

[Wcwilson]

I've had a chance to practice this week, and struggling a bit and would like some suggestions. I purchased the oblique holder, and the Nikko G nib and not quite sure how to properly make the motions. For example, I feel like I'm constantly "scratching" the paper and it often gets stuck as I move through the exercises. Is this normal, or am I possibly pressing too hard? Secondly, on pen position, are you to keep the pen above, at, or behind the first finger, third knuckle? Finally, are you supposed to keep the nib in one position relative to the paper, or at times do you rotate it through your fingers in order to create lighter/heavier lines.

 

Thanks for any guidance.

 

Wade

[smk]

Wade, if the nib is catching on the paper you are most likely pressing too hard. The Nikko G nibs are known for their smoothness.

 

Spencerian requires a very light hand for the majority of the strokes. A number of texts teach to have the ring and little finger always touching the paper. I believe this is to take up the weight of the hand leaving the nib to glide over the paper with the lightest of strokes producing very fine hairlines.

 

I am now realizing why there is so much emphasis on proper hand and arm position in the instruction books.

 

I think there is some flexibility on where the holder is supported. I believe the 'standard' is to have it rest on the base (third knuckle) of the index finger but I'm not sure it makes a big difference if you can achieve the strokes and fluidity with a bit of fore/aft positioning.

 

The heavier strokes (shades) are produced by pressing down on the nib to splay the tines. This pressure is applied with the index finger or a combination of the index finger and the thumb where they hold the holder in the front. The nib doesn't change direction but the paper should be rotated so that the slant lines in line with the direction of the down stroke you make (usually pointing directly into your body).

 

I hope what I wrote makes sense, these things are a bit tough to explain.

 

Salman

Edited January 7, 2012 by smk

[Wcwilson]

Thanks Salman, I'll give it a try. I'm using the McCaffery's ink and a little frustrated as to how often I have to dip the nib. How many letters should I be able to get on one dip? Maybe I'm not getting enough ink on the nib and that' why it seems to scratch?

 

Wade

[Mickey]

. This pressure is applied with the index finger or a combination of the index finger and the thumb where they hold the holder in the front.

 

Salmon, I agree with most of what you said, but I question the above, slightly. (We may need a ruling from Ken.)

 

I believe the pressure for the shades comes from flexing the wrist. True, most of the pressure is transmitted through the index finger, but I think the force is actually generated at the wrist. I have two reasons for this belief. First, the method you mention is not really possible in the ornamental work, where the fingers are essentially inert. Second, applying the force with the wrist presses not only the nib, but also those last two fingers you mentioned, damping the motion, as well as providing feedback. Third, any job which can be accomplished by larger muscles, generally should be, as it will free up the fingers for the truly fine jobs, e.g., guiding the point (in the plane of the paper).

 

(I've also seen descriptions of shades being produced by rolling the wrist clockwise while pulling the arm toward the body. Try thinking this way when you make principle stems. For me, it made letters like capital G and S much easier.)

[smk]

Mickey, I believe I use the fingers to generate flex for the shorter strokes, as in Spencerian miniscules, and the arm (forearm actually) for the longer shades.

 

It is possible that I only think I use my fingers since the pressure is transmitted through them. I'll pay closer attention in my next exercise session and report back. In some of the videos I have seen I think I've noticed a combination of the two sources of flexing, but once again, a closer inspection is warranted.

 

I'm not so sure there is only one correct way to do it though. Maybe the rules can be twisted a bit if one can consistently produce the required strokes.

 

I'm still in the process of 'getting' this hand. I realize now that its more of a system than the other hands I have learned, hence the emphasis on position, form and rhythm. Any guidance is greatly appreciated.

 

Salman

[texaspenman]

There should be no twisting of the pen. Here is an example from IAMPETH, provided by Don and Ron Tate:

 

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/getting_started/Don_and_Ron/don_and_ron_image0.jpg

 

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/getting_started/Don_and_Ron/don_and_ron_image1.jpg

 

 

 

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/getting_started/Don_and_Ron/don_and_ron_image2.jpg

 

 

 

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/getting_started/Don_and_Ron/don_and_ron_image3.jpg

 

 

 

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/getting_started/Don_and_Ron/don_and_ron_image4.jpg

 

 

 

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/getting_started/Don_and_Ron/don_and_ron_image5.jpg

 

 

 

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/getting_started/Don_and_Ron/don_and_ron_image6.jpg

[smk]

Thanks Salman, I'll give it a try. I'm using the McCaffery's ink and a little frustrated as to how often I have to dip the nib. How many letters should I be able to get on one dip? Maybe I'm not getting enough ink on the nib and that' why it seems to scratch?

 

Wade

 

I easily get 4 lines of practice from a single dip of my Zebra G nib using Higgins Eternal with some Gum Arabic. You need to dip the nib so the whole of the breather hole is covered in ink when you take the nib out.

 

I don't think the ink gives much lubrication. I do find that India ink writes a bit smoother (but dries so quickly that its annoying to keep wetting the nib) but even that is not sufficient to keep the nib from catching if I apply too much pressure.

 

BTW, lightness of touch took a new meaning for me when I started learning Spencerian. I thought I had a light touch with Copperplate but I know better now :-)

 

Salman

[Mickey]

Mickey, I believe I use the fingers to generate flex for the shorter strokes, as in Spencerian miniscules, and the arm (forearm actually) for the longer shades.

 

 

Let's see if I can express myself more clearly. (Thinking out loud) Rolling the forearm (twisting the wrist) presses the nib. Unlike pressure applied solely by the fingers, the pressure is applied (more) in line with the nib (i.e., on the slant axis), putting equal pressure on the two tine. Pressing directly with the index finger will tend to put more pressure on the left tine than on the right*, unless some compensating action is taken. On the principle of keeping things as simple as possible, it makes sense to me to leave the fingers as inactive as possible and apply the force only (or mostly) through wrist rotation.

 

I haven't seen this explanation elsewhere, but to my mind it does explain why one might want to apply shades via wrist rotation rather than directly with the fingers. It may also help explain why writing circles and spiral is easier in one direction than in the other and why most people cant the nib inward in the holder, effectively pre-loading the right tine. Finally, as shades are applied more sparingly in Spencerian than in Copperplate, keeping the shading mechanism separate from the basic stroke strikes me as sensible.

 

* Remember, the nib in an oblique holder is nearly at right angles to the forearm and the fingers (take a look), which means that it is also nearly parallel to the rotation of the wrist, which is then parallel to the slant line.