Learning Spencerian...

[Tashina]

I have now had the opportunity to read a good chunk of this thread. One result was that I found my way to the Linugraphy web site (http://www.allunderone.org/calligraphy2/calligraphy.php) which has a generator allowing one to customize guidesheets for Spencerian or other pointed pen practice. I recommend that this page be linked on the "Handwriting Aids and Links" page (https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/5152-handwriting-aids-and-links-to-lesson-sites-other-helpful-sites/) which is stickied on this forum.

 

Guide sheets are also available on IAMPETH, but the slant angle is not customizable and on some is 45 degrees rather than the "standard" 52 degrees to the horizontal. There are two "Cursive Guidesheets" at the bottom on the list, both with the 52 degree slant angle, but they are very, very busy and, in one posting on this thread, someone recommended that they should therefore be used as undersheet guides with the writing paper placed on top of the guidesheets.

 

When I do this, using Clairefontaine or even 20 lb paper, I cannot see the guidelines well enough under ordinary lighting. Is the idea that one is supposed to use a light table when the guidesheet is used in this fashion? This would apply to other guidesheets used as undersheets as well.

[eefster]

Hi, everyone. I thought I would bump this thread, as I've just started with the Mott copybooks. How is everyone else's practice coming along?

 

I'll post my first couple of practice sheets later, to make sure that my self-criticism is on the right track, but this is what I have so far:

 

1. My pen was a gel pen, of the type you'd find in most office supply cabinets. Although I was able to get a bit of difference based on the pressure I applied, I found it really wasn't as smooth as I needed. I'm picking up refills for my mechanical pencil today, and will start with that while I work on the shapes of the letters. My next priority is an oblique holder, some nibs, and proper ink, but I may also save up and simply buy Michael Sull's kit all at once.

 

2. My paper was ordinary printer paper, with a guideline generated from allunderone.org / Linugraphy. I also know that I've made at least one copy of the Mott pages, but I must have left them behind somewhere. My original Linugraphy guidelines strike me as being on the large side, so I've now got a set from knestled.com based on Spencerian Ladies' Hand (14/in).

 

3. My biggest problems so far are consistency and precision. I am having problems drawing parallel lines, never mind parallel lines at the correct angles, and many of my straight lines end up curved and my simple curves end up compound. I'm hoping that this will improve with practice, more appropriate material, and simply getting my head (and hand) around how everything fits together. The good thing about only being on day 3 is that I can really only get better from here.

 

I was terribly disappointed to find Harvest Crittenden's online Spencerian course far too late, but I'll be keeping an eye out to see when she offers it again, or if other instructors do something similar. In the interim, I will be looking to you all for inspiration and trusting that you'll keep me on the strait and narrow path to correct lettering!

[MusinkMan]

Hi, everyone. I thought I would bump this thread, as I've just started with the Mott copybooks. How is everyone else's practice coming along?

 

I'll post my first couple of practice sheets later, to make sure that my self-criticism is on the right track, but this is what I have so far:

 

1. My pen was a gel pen, of the type you'd find in most office supply cabinets. Although I was able to get a bit of difference based on the pressure I applied, I found it really wasn't as smooth as I needed. I'm picking up refills for my mechanical pencil today, and will start with that while I work on the shapes of the letters. My next priority is an oblique holder, some nibs, and proper ink, but I may also save up and simply buy Michael Sull's kit all at once.

 

2. My paper was ordinary printer paper, with a guideline generated from allunderone.org / Linugraphy. I also know that I've made at least one copy of the Mott pages, but I must have left them behind somewhere. My original Linugraphy guidelines strike me as being on the large side, so I've now got a set from knestled.com based on Spencerian Ladies' Hand (14/in).

 

3. My biggest problems so far are consistency and precision. I am having problems drawing parallel lines, never mind parallel lines at the correct angles, and many of my straight lines end up curved and my simple curves end up compound. I'm hoping that this will improve with practice, more appropriate material, and simply getting my head (and hand) around how everything fits together. The good thing about only being on day 3 is that I can really only get better from here.

 

I was terribly disappointed to find Harvest Crittenden's online Spencerian course far too late, but I'll be keeping an eye out to see when she offers it again, or if other instructors do something similar. In the interim, I will be looking to you all for inspiration and trusting that you'll keep me on the strait and narrow path to correct lettering!

Ah! very cool...I made it into Harvest's class (of which this is the last week, it was a 6-week course). Lots of good information and money well spent for sure!

 

I'm definitely not an expert, but I believe this is solid advice: don't practice with the gel pens, practice with a pencil. It is a proven technique since forever. Gel pens, I don't know if that's as good of a practice/learning aid? Pencils are great man. I didn't want to go to a pencil at first because I thought it was too "kindergarten"...but it's the stuff! Try it!

 

Paper doesn't matter much for pencil practice. When you go to a pointed dip nib it will matter a great deal. I wouldn't even experiment with cheap paper when using a pointed pen. You will only frustrate yourself and you will not produce good results no matter how hard you try. :-)

 

If you are not experienced with an oblique holder and pointed pen, then I would definitely suggest you start with a G nib...either a Nikko G or a Zebra G. They are very similar...the Zebra being slightly sharper and giving a slightly finer hairline. Both are very forgiving nibs that work flawlessly and have enough flex to make you smile.

 

Don't EVEN try to do your practice work without guide lines...and I mean lots of them. Baseline, x-height, chest height, and top line. Use oblique (slanted) guidelines too to keep yourself working at that 52 degree angle. I thought I had a decent slant, so I tried to do my "homework" without the oblique guide lines. It looked ok...until Harvest put her protractor up to it. Take the advice of a fool...don't even attempt it without proper guidelines. Eventually we will get good enough that we won't need anything but a baseline...but that is years away. LOL

 

Good luck bro!!!

[eefster]

I'm definitely not an expert, but I believe this is solid advice: don't practice with the gel pens, practice with a pencil. It is a proven technique since forever. Gel pens, I don't know if that's as good of a practice/learning aid? Pencils are great man. I didn't want to go to a pencil at first because I thought it was too "kindergarten"...but it's the stuff! Try it!

 

If you are not experienced with an oblique holder and pointed pen, then I would definitely suggest you start with a G nib...either a Nikko G or a Zebra G. They are very similar...the Zebra being slightly sharper and giving a slightly finer hairline. Both are very forgiving nibs that work flawlessly and have enough flex to make you smile.

 

Don't EVEN try to do your practice work without guide lines...and I mean lots of them. Baseline, x-height, chest height, and top line. Use oblique (slanted) guidelines too to keep yourself working at that 52 degree angle. I thought I had a decent slant, so I tried to do my "homework" without the oblique guide lines. It looked ok...until Harvest put her protractor up to it. Take the advice of a fool...don't even attempt it without proper guidelines. Eventually we will get good enough that we won't need anything but a baseline...but that is years away. LOL

 

Thanks! I was thinking the other evening that I never have managed to get a picture upload working, but I'm probably just saving myself from embarrassment.

 

Yeah, I did one session with the gel pen, and then picked up mechanical pencil lead the next day. That's really all I've been using since, except for a couple of short practices writing large letters on a whiteboard, to bring in more whole-arm motion. I did find a straight nib holder when I was home in Dublin last weekend, but I find the nib terrible. Terrible at holding ink, terrible at flexing, and of course the straight holder is not ideal for this either. Someone more experienced than I can certainly make it work beautifully, I'm sure, but I went back to my pencil. I'll probably mail order some proper supplies soon.

 

As for guidelines, I've been giving that knestled site a real workout. I keep the 52-degree angle, but I change the number of ascender/descender x-heights, I change how far apart the slant lines are printed, the overall size, everything I can think of. I figure that while I am finding my preferred practice setup, I'm also getting practice writing the same forms at different scales. Practice, practice, practice -- we'll find our way to Carnegie Hall some day!

 

Thanks again for the boost.

[seta]

Hi all,

 

I am new to Spencerian script (and penmanship in general). I have been reading for a while and I thought I would make my first post.

 

It's so great to see people sharing their knowledge and encouraging one another here.

 

I am actually a bit stuck, hope someone can help me out.

 

How exactly do you make the shades? I understand that I need to press the nib to make thicker strokes, but that does not seem to result in the wedge shape in t, d, and p. I think I am missing something here. Is there a guide somewhere that details shading techniques?

 

Most of the books I found tell you Where to shade but not How.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Mickey]

A lot of the cutoffs are touched up, but it is possible to make flat topped (or bottomed) wedges without touching up. It's fairly simple, but does take a bit of practice. To begin a wedge, turn the pen slightly and put only one tine on the page.* Press. This causes the tines to spread. Once the tine not touching the page is as wide as you want the shade, turn the pen back so both tines are on the page. Pull, gradually releasing the pressure - flat topped wedge. Getting the flat bottomed wedge is similar. Pull the wedge then turn the pen, gradually releasing only one tine. As nib recovers it's shape, the released tine will write a more or less straight cut off. That's it.

 

* Once you get the hang of this, the free tine doesn't leave the page; it skates sideways, drawing the cutoff more or less like it does on the bottom wedges. BTW, welcome on board.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Mickey

[seta]

Thanks for the quick response, Mickey! I will try it out.

 

Could you also tell me how to do the shades of l, b, f? There are some in the capitals as well that confuse me, especially the shade in the Capital Stem. I am struggling to push and release while going almost sideways to the left. Not sure if just not enough pratice or I am doing it wrong.

[Mickey]

Are you using a straight or oblique holder (preferred)? (What hardware are you using?) Paper alignment is crucial. The pen slit should be on the slant line. With a straight holder, this means turning the paper 90 degree (or more) counter-clockwise. The writing line runs away from your body. An oblique holder allows you to use a more conventional paper position, about 45 degree counter-clockwise. Learn first to write the l, f, h, et al. without shades; other than that, learning Spencerian is just like getting into Carnegie Hall - practice, practice, practice. There are no tricks. There is technique, not techniques.

[seta]

Sorry I should have mentioned it earlier. I am using oblique pen holder and Gillott 303. I have some Nikko G as well but I find them too stiff.

 

I was practising without shading and have just tried to do shading recently, though I think I will switch back to no shading practice for a bit longer. I just want to make sure I am not practising bad habbit. Thanks for your help Mickey, I hope I can post some result here soon.

Edited October 14, 2014 by seta

[MusinkMan]

Hi seta,

Try these tips. I'm no expert, but I thought these little "visuals" might help you.

Use your 303 if you want, but I would use the Nikko if I were you until you get more seasoned at the hand.

Better yet, use a Zebra G. Finer hairlines and plenty of control.

Don't worry if you think they are too stiff...Spencerian doesn't have heavy shades unless you get into the Ornamental stuff, and you should not be attempting that for a while.

 

Use good paper...either Clairefontaine or Rhodia are good...don't use copy paper or cheap notebook paper...you'll be wasting your time because you won't be able to do a passable job.

 

Use some decent iron gall ink or some decent Walnut ink. I would not use fountain pen ink for this unless you know how to thicken it a little with gum Arabic. Or use Higgins Eternal...it will do an ok job.

 

Anyway, see if these little tips help you, I hope so!:

 

[seta]

Thanks for the tips MusinkMan. I am using Speedball Indian Ink, not sure how it is compared to those you mentioned. I will try to find some good paper as you suggested, I am using copy paper at the moment and can't say it was a pleasant experience.

[Skagit]

Wow...great stuff Musink...I'd love suggestions on how to get from where I'm at now (below) to where you're at. Seems like I'm maybe a bit heavy-handed? I'm using an oblique holder with the Nikko G.

 

I'm at a bit of a plateau where I don't know what I don't know. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

[Mickey]

Wow...great stuff Musink...I'd love suggestions on how to get from where I'm at now (below) to where you're at. Seems like I'm maybe a bit heavy-handed? I'm using an oblique holder with the Nikko G.

 

I'm at a bit of a plateau where I don't know what I don't know. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

 

If you don't mind, I'd make a few observations. First, what you're doing is attractive and readable. The biggest fault I see is that you seem caught between Copperplate and Spencerian. You shade every down stroke. That's Copperplate. Shades are rare in Spencerian and all the more telling because they are. Learn where to correctly shade Spencerian (and feel morally superior when you omit an optional shade). Line quality is more of a central issue in Spencer, with finer generally being better. Your self-diagnosis was sound - heavy handed. Think spider silk describing space. Pay more attention to the white of the page than to the ink.

[Skagit]

 

If you don't mind, I'd make a few observations. First, what you're doing is attractive and readable. The biggest fault I see is that you seem caught between Copperplate and Spencerian. You shade every down stroke. That's Copperplate. Shades are rare in Spencerian and all the more telling because they are. Learn where to correctly shade Spencerian (and feel morally superior when you omit an optional shade). Line quality is more of a central issue in Spencer, with finer generally being better. Your self-diagnosis was sound - heavy handed. Think spider silk describing space. Pay more attention to the white of the page than to the ink.

 

Thanks Mickey...I don't mind at all...that's the kind of info I'm looking for.

 

So, the problem I have is that if I go too light, my lines tend to waver. I think I've adopted the thick down stroke as a means to disguise/stabilize the waver. How does one go about creating a smooth, fine, line?

 

BTW...great advice about turning one tine onto the paper for the t and d shading. That's a gem that I've been waiting a year to learn!

[Mickey]

You might take a look at https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/270659-spencerian-controlled-speed/ especially post 73, which works for me.

[MusinkMan]

Wow...great stuff Musink...I'd love suggestions on how to get from where I'm at now (below) to where you're at. Seems like I'm maybe a bit heavy-handed? I'm using an oblique holder with the Nikko G.

 

I'm at a bit of a plateau where I don't know what I don't know. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thank you Skagit!

 

Man, I'm just trying to learn, same as everyone else; but I'll try to share with you a bit...I looked at your C.S.Lewis excerpts (which look really nice, by the way). But Mickey is correct about the tendency to shade every downstroke. It looks nice, but it is not the "Spencerian Way". LOL. Spencerian has only a few specific downstrokes that are to be shaded. That is one of the primary components that give it "that look". There isn't a lot of rhyme or reason as to which are shaded and which are not, except that Platt Spencer decided which ones he wanted that way when he created the hand. Now there are many many many variations of Spencerian, and also the Spencerian hand is meant to be "personalized". By that, I mean that it will take on the character of the penman's personal writing, so you may see things that vary quite a bit, but they are still profoundly "Spencerian". That is what appeals to me so much about this hand, once the principles are learned and applied, you can go crazy with your own personal touches (as long as you stay within the rules of the Spencerian framework).

 

Anyway, I scratched out some quickie stuff for you. It's not very good writing on my part, but I wanted to illustrate some of the concepts. None of this is "exemplar quality" of course...just some quickie "examples" that I tried to jot down that you might find interesting and maybe helpful. I noted right off that your capital W needed a little advice, so I tried to show that it is a "Reverse Oval" letter. Spencerian Capitals are based on one of three principles...the full oval, the reverse oval, or the capital stem. (You must learn all 3 of these principles, and then you can execute every capital letter.) You should actually do "drills" with these three forms (full oval, reverse oval, capital stem)...making them over and over and over to fill up a whole page for each of them. I tried to write down and demonstrate (though poorly) the caps that are based on the reverse oval. I thought that might give you some insight as to how those letters are formed. It makes it a lot easier to "memorize" the letterforms if you know which of the three principles the letter is built upon!

 

Anyway, I hope this is of some use to you!

 

[Iso*]

For some reason, I can't execute as well as I did about a week ago.

Here is a sample of the finest so-called letter I have written thus far. This is the product of around 20 months of practice since I started in this hobby. Personally, I think its okay, but its worth it to post progress on script. There are various errors all over the place in this letter in my mind, but the consistency in the letter is what makes it my personal best.

Executed with an Esterbrook 356 in a contoured vintage holder. The ink is a handmade higgins-walnut ink mixture diluted down to about 40%. I find that using only arm movement produces the best and wobble-free lines. When doing my penmanship, I use no finger movement whatsoever. When I really did lose most of my finger movement, my penmanship greatly improved.

http://i.imgur.com/EFyqbMZ.jpg

Edited October 15, 2014 by Iso*

[Skagit]

Iso, Musink, Mickey, thanks so much. If I could write like any of you I would wet myself...especially you guys who do it without lined paper. (Do you use a light source with lined guides underneath?)

 

I messed around a bit last night with these concepts and noticed a big difference...it looks much more Spencerian. I'll try to get a sample up tonight for comparison. Now it's just a matter of proceduralizing it and getting it into muscle memory.

 

Those reverse ovals have always been tough for me. Like Musink said, I think I just need to do a page or two of each to refine it and lock it in.

 

I realize too that I largely see the baseline as absolute, but I like the look much better when the letter can really flow both above and below the baseline...I'll work on that too...I'm just getting into the "artistry" of writing.

[Skagit]

Liking this a little better...getting the line weight down a bit.

[MusinkMan]

Awesome, Skagit! Nice improvement. A little tip for you...watch your capital stems. You are starting the pen pressure too early in the stroke. Only at the bottom of the capital stem, or else it will look more copperplate-ish. Great improvement though man! Nice work! Again, I'm not very good at the hand myself, so I have no business pretending to be a teacher. I just finished an online class with Harvest Crittenden, and I'm mostly passing along what she taught us. So please understand that I don't claim to be an advanced penman by any means!