Learning Spencerian...

[dali3464]

This thread spurred me onto giving a hand at Spencerian! I splurged on one of Brian's amazing oblique holders, a stash of nibs, McCaffery's Penman Ink and Mr. Sull's Learning to Write Spencerian Script.

 

I've so far been enjoying it, and my character a no longer looks a c! I do have a few things slightly bothering me though. While Mr. Sull's book is very good, it's predominantly theory, with little in the way of lessons. At the moment, all I'm doing is simply going through the list of characters alphabetically and trying to accustom myself to the range of motions involved. While I'm fine with this, I'm wondering if there's an alternate way to approach this? I read others practising instead with various drills involving circles and repeated patterns, but I can't quite for the life of me find the appropriate book(s) at IAMPETH.

 

I bought my supplies from PIA, and after having a browse through John Neal's website, I noticed that Learning to Write Spencerian Script has an accompanying practice pack. Would this be of any particular use to me? I tried finding a few inside peeks at the contents, and it seems as if it's mostly sentences, which would be good down the line, but at this point I'm mostly concentrating on letter formation. On this note, would it be worth purchasing the Mott Media set? I searched for a few images of the contents, and I noticed lovely pages filled with grids and exemplars indicating the formation of letters.

 

I find what's troubling me the most is that Learning to Write Spencerian doesn't really cover the width of characters. The qualitative descriptions of the strokes you're supposed to make are very good, but it doesn't so much as go into the quantitative measures of where and when strokes start and stop, so it's very difficult (for me at least) to get a good idea of the proportions of the letters.

 

Perhaps I'm just overanalysing this and instead I ought to get back to practising!

[fiberdrunk]

Here's one of my recent practice pages from the Spencerian Penmanship copybooks (#1) by Platt Rogers Spencer (republished by Mott Media). Yes, I'm a beginner! I wrote this with MusinkMan's custom oblique (adapted for a hook-over lefty) and my homemade black walnut ink.

 

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2892/10478437874_eff6053e44_c.jpg

Edited October 25, 2013 by fiberdrunk

[Skagit]

I use the Mott copy books from Amazon also. Very thorough. I photocopy each page and then do it. That way the original is available if I want to do it again, or for my kids to use.

 

The whole set of five is only $22.

 

Rob

Edited October 25, 2013 by Skagit

[MusinkMan]

This thread spurred me onto giving a hand at Spencerian! I splurged on one of Brian's amazing oblique holders, a stash of nibs, McCaffery's Penman Ink and Mr. Sull's Learning to Write Spencerian Script.

 

I've so far been enjoying it, and my character a no longer looks a c! I do have a few things slightly bothering me though. While Mr. Sull's book is very good, it's predominantly theory, with little in the way of lessons. At the moment, all I'm doing is simply going through the list of characters alphabetically and trying to accustom myself to the range of motions involved. While I'm fine with this, I'm wondering if there's an alternate way to approach this? I read others practising instead with various drills involving circles and repeated patterns, but I can't quite for the life of me find the appropriate book(s) at IAMPETH.

 

I bought my supplies from PIA, and after having a browse through John Neal's website, I noticed that Learning to Write Spencerian Script has an accompanying practice pack. Would this be of any particular use to me? I tried finding a few inside peeks at the contents, and it seems as if it's mostly sentences, which would be good down the line, but at this point I'm mostly concentrating on letter formation. On this note, would it be worth purchasing the Mott Media set? I searched for a few images of the contents, and I noticed lovely pages filled with grids and exemplars indicating the formation of letters.

 

I find what's troubling me the most is that Learning to Write Spencerian doesn't really cover the width of characters. The qualitative descriptions of the strokes you're supposed to make are very good, but it doesn't so much as go into the quantitative measures of where and when strokes start and stop, so it's very difficult (for me at least) to get a good idea of the proportions of the letters.

 

Perhaps I'm just overanalysing this and instead I ought to get back to practising!

Wooo Hooo! Lets see it some of it, David!

[MusinkMan]

Here's one of my recent practice pages from the Spencerian Penmanship copybooks (#1) by Platt Rogers Spencer (republished by Mott Media). Yes, I'm a beginner! I wrote this with MusinkMan's custom oblique (adapted for a hook-over lefty) and my homemade black walnut ink.

 

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2892/10478437874_eff6053e44_c.jpg

Uh-huh!!!! Dats the way we do it!!! Lookin' good, Teri!

[fiberdrunk]

I use the Mott copy books from Amazon also. Very thorough. I photocopy each page and then do it. That way the original is available if I want to do it again, or for my kids to use.

 

The whole set of five is only $22.

 

Rob

 

I was thinking of photocopying the pages, too. The paper in the copybooks isn't the best. But photocopying it wastes almost a half sheet of paper, so I just opted to do them in the copybooks afterall. Less hassle. You can buy additional sets of the copybooks for only $11.31 on Amazon (this is only the copybooks, and not the theory book). I bought my kids their own set each, too.

[Mickey]

I bought my supplies from PIA, and after having a browse through John Neal's website, I noticed that Learning to Write Spencerian Script has an accompanying practice pack. Would this be of any particular use to me?

 

I find what's troubling me the most is that Learning to Write Spencerian doesn't really cover the width of characters.

The practice pad is useful. Photocopy it so you can repeat the exercises. (At least, that's what Michael Sull told me to do.)

 

The width of characters is dictated by the geometry built into the hand. Because most of the strokes are on the bias, neither vertical nor horizontal, the height automatically generates the proper width. The oval strokes are probably what is bedeviling you. Depending on whose opinion you credit, the o is the same height as the i and the a is just slightly larger (looking) since it contains an i. Take a look at http://www.iampeth.com/artwork/Madarasz_study_as_much.jpg which shows this about as well as anything. (Don't try to copy the rest of the hand, which is very idiosyncratically Madarasz's own.)

 

Here's a link to a pretty decent explanation of general principles.

http://www.iampeth.com/books/behrensmeyer/behrensmeyer_practical_penmanship_index.php

Edited October 25, 2013 by Mickey

[Estefa]

I've been keeping an eye out for gold-plated flex nibs but I don't think they exist any more. JBB here on FPN sells the silver alloy nibs. They do seem to be resisting the acidity better.

 

 

Hi fiberdrunk,

 

here

 

http://www.kallipos.de/spitzfedern-seite-2.html

 

you can find at least one gold plated vintage nib with flex (the Humboldt EF) – it says at least that the nib gives a very fine hairlines and has high flex. I haven't tried this one particular nib and I don't know if it fits well in an oblique holder – it looks quite long. But the seller is very dependable and cooperative, and seems to be shipping internationally as he has some english reviews here:

 

http://www.kallipos.de/kunden/artmedic_guestbook_index.php?id=3

 

So I guess he could give you advice regarding this!

 

I am also working with the Mott copy books (besides some other sources I found amongst others on this thread regarding oval drills etc.)… my but this really needs patience. And practice. And some more practice …

 

Stefanie

[fiberdrunk]

 

Hi fiberdrunk,

 

here

 

http://www.kallipos.de/spitzfedern-seite-2.html

 

you can find at least one gold plated vintage nib with flex (the Humboldt EF) – it says at least that the nib gives a very fine hairlines and has high flex. I haven't tried this one particular nib and I don't know if it fits well in an oblique holder – it looks quite long. But the seller is very dependable and cooperative, and seems to be shipping internationally as he has some english reviews here:

 

http://www.kallipos.de/kunden/artmedic_guestbook_index.php?id=3

 

So I guess he could give you advice regarding this!

 

I am also working with the Mott copy books (besides some other sources I found amongst others on this thread regarding oval drills etc.)… my but this really needs patience. And practice. And some more practice …

 

Stefanie

 

Wow, thanks, Stefanie! What a great resource for flex nibs! I had no idea. Will definitely look into his gold nibs!

[Estefa]

You're welcome!

[Quotidianlight]

I am using the mottmedia copy books to learn and using a regular fountain pen as I'm not worried about shading yet. Just getting my wrist off the table is hard enough without worrying about flex. I'm a little confused though as I've seen a lot of different resources available and would like more instruction than just the Mottmedia books. My mom wrote a type of spencerian and did all sorts of other exercises as a kid like the ones shows in Mills Modern Business. I'm just confused by the different types of spencerian and afraid I may accidentally get books across styles. Can someone explain, link or show the different types of Spencerian. I'm trying to use IAMPETH, but the site is a tad confusing.

[Mickey]

I am using the mottmedia copy books to learn and using a regular fountain pen as I'm not worried about shading yet. Just getting my wrist off the table is hard enough without worrying about flex. I'm a little confused though as I've seen a lot of different resources available and would like more instruction than just the Mottmedia books. My mom wrote a type of spencerian and did all sorts of other exercises as a kid like the ones shows in Mills Modern Business. I'm just confused by the different types of spencerian and afraid I may accidentally get books across styles. Can someone explain, link or show the different types of Spencerian. I'm trying to use IAMPETH, but the site is a tad confusing.

You're starting in a perfectly good place. Stick with the copy books. As the lessons sink into your muscles, eye, and brain, the IAMPETH site will make more sense and be easier to navigate.

 

There are basically three types of Spencerian: 1) Spencerian without shades, sometimes called monoline; that's what your doing now. (Business writing is a spin off of this, usually with simplified capitals. There are several variants. Don't worry about them for now.) 2) Basic Spencerian with minimal shading (which you would now being doing if you had a flex nibbed pen); and 3) Ornamental Penmanship or OP, which is a more elaborate or decorated form of basic Spencerian. (There are additional rules suggesting what does and does not work in OP. For now, don't worry about them.)

 

Here's an example of OP http://www.iampeth.com/artwork/deCollibus_ornamental.jpg

 

Here's an example of business writing http://www.iampeth.com/artwork/ECMills_01.jpg

 

 

The Ames book http://www.iampeth.com/books/ames_guide/ames_guide_index.php

 

And Behrensmeyer book http://www.iampeth.com/books/behrensmeyer/behrensmeyer_practical_penmanship_index.php

 

might safely be used to supplement the Theory book you got with your copy books.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Mickey

[Quotidianlight]

Thank you. So far the copy books aren't enough practice since I have a really hard time moving my forearm or shoulder. I finish book one but am not ready for book 2. So I'm doing extra pages from book 1 using Seyes paper and arm movement exercises (mostly slanted lines and circles close together). Your response helped a lot. I noticed that the capital letters can be done several different ways and that really confused me. My mom's business hand had capitals like the business writing book by Mills instead of like the copybooks I'm using. I'm just worried I'll never get this so want to make sure I'm learning the right one is case I die before having time to learn others lol

Edited October 26, 2013 by Quotidianlight

[Mickey]

Thank you. So far the copy books aren't enough practice since I have a really hard time moving my forearm or shoulder. I finish book one but am not ready for book 2. So I'm doing extra pages from book 1 using Seyes paper and arm movement exercises (mostly slanted lines and circles close together). Your response helped a lot. I noticed that the capital letters can be done several different ways and that really confused me. My mom's business hand had capitals like the business writing book by Mills instead of like the copybooks I'm using. I'm just worried I'll never get this so want to make sure I'm learning the right one is case I die before having time to learn others lol

Your mom probably learned Palmer or one of its close kin. It's what I was taught way back when. Yes, the copy books don't have quite enough paper to get the job done. I'm a big fan of Seyes paper. Del Tysdal, an important penman who died very recently, claimed to have worn through several kitchen tables learning.

 

My two cents: with the circle, spiral, and line exercises, work for smoothness and reasonable velocity and proper form will follow... eventually. Don't draw the shapes! (Of course, you knew that.)

[Quotidianlight]

Thanks, I was focused on not going past the lines making it look "right". So that's a great tip. I'll have to look up Palmer now cause now I'm curious. She was born in '32 or '34 and still used ink pots in school! From her description of the drills and the punishment when messed up, I know learning her pretty handwriting was a blood sport lol. She also wrote shorthand but aside from showing me once, I'd never seen it in practice until I was at a community meeting last week. There was a older man doing old style shorthand! If people can learn that squiggly mess I CAN learn Spencerian.

[dali3464]

Wooo Hooo! Lets see it some of it, David!

 

I'll be sure to upload my next practice sheet to FPN! It sure is an uphill battle at this stage though: final exams are right around the corner and I spend most of my time writing in Greek and Hebrew. Sure doesn't help when you're tempted to pull off a poorly-attempted Spencerian flourish on a Greek capital!

 

Oh and that Nikko G nib you kindly included with your nibholder? I wore it out in just 5 pages. I didn't have any Rhodia paper on hand, so instead I used my awful, 70gsm textured copypaper. I think the nib would've worn out less slowly if I took it against sandpaper! Well to say the last, the next day I went ahead and bought myself a carton (2,500 sheets) of 100gsm ultra-smooth paper. $50 well spent if I do say so myself.

 

The practice pad is useful. Photocopy it so you can repeat the exercises. (At least, that's what Michael Sull told me to do.)

 

The width of characters is dictated by the geometry built into the hand. Because most of the strokes are on the bias, neither vertical nor horizontal, the height automatically generates the proper width. The oval strokes are probably what is bedeviling you. Depending on whose opinion you credit, the o is the same height as the i and the a is just slightly larger (looking) since it contains an i. Take a look at http://www.iampeth.com/artwork/Madarasz_study_as_much.jpg which shows this about as well as anything. (Don't try to copy the rest of the hand, which is very idiosyncratically Madarasz's own.)

 

Here's a link to a pretty decent explanation of general principles.

http://www.iampeth.com/books/behrensmeyer/behrensmeyer_practical_penmanship_index.php

 

Thanks for the advice Mickey! You were right, it was mostly the ovals that were giving me the most grief. At this stage, I find 'e' to be the most frustrating character to learn since it clashes heavily with my muscle memory. From what I read in the New Spencerian Compendium (a lovely guide that mrmgward mentioned many pages ago, especially useful since it has grids!), the length of the loop is 2/3rds the x-height and and 1/4th the y-length (y-width?), and so you have a graceful and fairly narrow loop. The problem for me then is that my 'e' loops are fat and clumsy by inclination!

[thang1thang2]

 

From what I read in the New Spencerian Compendium (a lovely guide that mrmgward mentioned many pages ago, especially useful since it has grids!), the length of the loop is 2/3rds the x-height and and 1/4th the y-length (y-width?), and so you have a graceful and fairly narrow loop. The problem for me then is that my 'e' loops are fat and clumsy by inclination!

 

I found it very helpful to think of the 'e' as an i where you go down to the baseline behind the up stroke rather than in front of it. You make the e starting upper stroke the same exact way you do a lower case i (it sounds weird, but try it), and then you have the smallest of curves (just enough to make the opening) and then almost straight vertical down to make the graceful curve at the bottom look more pronounced and also offset the chance of closing the loop in your e.

 

Spencerian borrows a lot from the idea of having the lower half of your letters look almost identical (see Engrosser's script for an extreme example of that identicalness)

[fiberdrunk]

 

At this stage, I find 'e' to be the most frustrating character to learn since it clashes heavily with my muscle memory. From what I read in the New Spencerian Compendium (a lovely guide that mrmgward mentioned many pages ago, especially useful since it has grids!), the length of the loop is 2/3rds the x-height and and 1/4th the y-length (y-width?), and so you have a graceful and fairly narrow loop. The problem for me then is that my 'e' loops are fat and clumsy by inclination!

 

I find practicing on these grids rather helpful (though will I be able to manage without my training wheels later on??) Think of a rectangle and join corner to corner with a slight under curve

 

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3826/10630238666_7a7af838ff_b.jpg

[Mickey]

One way of understanding the 'e' is as a natural consequence of the two angles on which the hand is built, 30 and 52 degrees. The 'e' goes out on a shallow curve averaging 30 degrees, reaches the x-line, turns smartly, and returns almost straight to the writing line at 52 degree*. It is inevitable that the two lines should intersect. Get the angles correct and the loop will be the right size. (Added: eventually you will 'see' the correct crossing point and thus how tight to make the top turn.)

 

* The change of direction at the bottom of the 'e' is late and fairly sharp.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Mickey

[MusinkMan]

This is Ornamental Penmanship, I already know that it is not Spencerian. But a close kinship. Under the coaching and guidance of my really cool instructor, Mr. Jay Hughes, I have managed to progress a little bit in OP. Still a ways to go, but I am gaining confidence. I did this with a Leonard P, and some avocado green Private Reserve ink. Full arm movement on the caps. (Listen to me...talking of full arm muscle movements...hahaha...never thought I'd see the day). Man, I am having fun! And learning the right way instead of the piece-meal "figure it out myself" method.

 

Fun Fun Fun....Eff Ewe Inn....FUN.

 

Edited November 4, 2013 by MusinkMan