Learning Spencerian...

[smk]

Welcome to FPN Estefa. Your practice sheets look good - you have good control of the pen and the shading is well balanced. You'll have the hang of it in no time.

 

Mickey's advice above is spot on - you would do well to pay attention to it.

 

Salman

[Estefa]

Thank you Mickey for your welcome and detailed critique! I appreciate it very much!

About the hand thing that's good to know. On some of the old drawings it looks like they were levitating their hands ! So I am going to try just to keep it light. - I will take to heart also your comments about the 2 slants (of which I was aware but not sure how to put more attention to it in practice) and the spacing problem. So l's and e's! The idea to practice shades without shades sounds good - I will do that as well.

I will post again when I have more to show! Thanks again!

Hello Salman, I thank you also very much for your welcome and advice!

Stefanie

[mvarela]

Once more, trying to work on my over-slanting...

 

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3695/9713332882_ae20d68770_h.jpg

 

BTW, that's the second verse of "Volver", one of the greatest tangos ever written. The most famous version was recorded by Carlos Gardel:

[MusinkMan]

  On 9/9/2013 at 9:33 AM, Estefa said:

Hi there, I am jumping in. I am quite new here i.e. that's my first post, but I have been reading here now for quite some time. Great site and wonderful thread - thanks to all for so much interesting, beautiful input and advice!

 

I have started trying to learn spencerian some weeks ago.

 

My materials:

I started with the "Spencerian System of Practical Penmanship", a Century Oblique holder with a Brause Rose, and iron gall ink. In the meantime I switched to a Gillot 404 and sometimes other ink (just for a change). I am now also waiting for the Michael Sull books to arrive from Johnnealbooks (and for a beautiful holder from Brian (Musinkman) ).

 

What I learned:

1. I filled quite some pages, before I found out - mainly on this site! - that it will not work without really learning the arm movement techniques. I must admit that it was quite mysterious to me because I couldn't imagine to form controlled letters without even the side of my hand touching the paper / table. I now usually start working some time with the first exercise sheet from "Spencerian Script, taken from Real Penwork, 1881" (from Iampeth) and then work with the copy sheets in the booklets. One by one now.

I still think it's really hard and I tend to either get too fast - then everything gets sloppy and uncontrolled and ugly - or I go slow but then I mostly start working too much with finger movement, and touching the paper with the hand, and everything gets shaky and ugly …

2. It is also hard to keep the slant. It tends to get too extreme in the downstrokes is what I think.

3. Shades. I have difficulty to start shading later in the downstroke - you can see it in the Capital stems for example. I have Copperplate practice, maybe that is a problem.

4. Spacing. When I concentrate on letterspacing, lines get shaky because I get too slow - and when I get too fast, I loose control of the spacing.

5. Coffee is not very helpful … beeing tired either.

 

I post here some of my current work sheets. If anyone has some wonderful idea how to make this much easier and faster would be great! - I guess I know that the simple answer will be "Practice, and then practice, and some more practice" .

 

I am sorry if something sounds strange - i am not a native speaker and surely make mistakes!

 

It seems I cannot upload pictures from flickr for some reason. So I try to attach them hope that works!

 

Spence_SW-1.jpgSpence_SW-2.jpgSpence_SW-3.jpg

Nice work there Stefanie!!! I love those dainty swirly lines!

[MusinkMan]

  On 9/9/2013 at 8:27 PM, mvarela said:

Once more, trying to work on my over-slanting...

 

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3695/9713332882_ae20d68770_h.jpg

 

 

 

Martin! Heyyyyy dewd!!!!! How goes it? Did u get my last letter yet bro?

 

Regarding your worry about over slanting; did you know that the great Madarasz slanted at 45 degrees?

I wouldn't sweat about 'over slanting', brother! :-). Just have fun...that's what we're all in this to do.

Edited September 9, 2013 by MusinkMan

[Estefa]

Thank you Brian, I am so glad you like it !

 

Stefanie

[mvarela]

  On 9/9/2013 at 9:24 PM, MusinkMan said:

  On 9/9/2013 at 8:27 PM, mvarela said:

Once more, trying to work on my over-slanting...

 

 

 

Martin! Heyyyyy dewd!!!!! How goes it? Did u get my last letter yet bro?

 

Regarding your worry about over slanting; did you know that the great Madarasz slanted at 45 degrees?

I wouldn't sweat about 'over slanting', brother! :-). Just have fun...that's what we're all in this to do.

Hi Brian! Things go well, though busy

The last letter I got from you included some lovely Tomoe River paper samples. That one crossed one of mine on the way, and there was another one after that... did you get any?

 

Regarding the slant, I do like the more slanted aesthetics more, personally, but I do take Mickey's advice to heart because 1) he does know about this stuff and 2) I should be able to maintain the darned slant according to the guidelines! (and for some reason I tend to go lower...)

 

This was done with a 52º guideline (2mm x-height)...

[MusinkMan]

  On 9/10/2013 at 5:11 AM, mvarela said:

Hi Brian! Things go well, though busy

The last letter I got from you included some lovely Tomoe River paper samples. That one crossed one of mine on the way, and there was another one after that... did you get any?

 

Regarding the slant, I do like the more slanted aesthetics more, personally, but I do take Mickey's advice to heart because 1) he does know about this stuff and 2) I should be able to maintain the darned slant according to the guidelines! (and for some reason I tend to go lower...)

 

This was done with a 52º guideline (2mm x-height)...

You have another letter that should arrive any day now. Probably tomorrow. I did receive yours as well. Got some cool paper from you too!

Well, the slant degree isn't as critical as you might think, as long as it's consistent. Spencerian masters took outrageous liberties with such things, yet their work was always stunning. Not to say that you should abandon all of the rules of course...but if you slant more than 52 degress, it won't be the end of the world. It must be consistent though, that part is true. Lord, I'm learning all about that from my new Spence "teacher". Lots of eye-opening stuff for sure. I was stressing about the wrong things...and not stressing about the things that really mattered. And was too stupid to realize the difference. hahaha But I'm learning, and hopefully I will turn the corner soon! Let me know when your letter gets there brother! I shared a couple of tips with you, I hope they are a help!

[caliken]

  On 9/9/2013 at 8:27 PM, mvarela said:

Once more, trying to work on my over-slanting...

 

 

There is one basic thing I suggest to write any script at any pre-determined slant.

 

Whether it's Italic at 9 degrees or Copperplate at 55 degrees or Gothic at 90 degrees I always rotate the paper counter-clockwise so that the slope line is at right angles to the edge of my desk. This technique assumes a normal body-position facing the desk directly. In this way, I am always writing straight up and down, regardless of the style of script. It does mean that I am writing more 'uphill' with the more sloping scripts as I follow the baseline but it only seems strange at first. Incidentally, this helps with flex-nibbed writing because the tines open evenly when used with an oblique holder. This isn't carved in stone of course, but I find that it does help control the slope of writing. Give it a try.

 

This, of couse, is supplementary to the exccellent advice you've been given by Mickey and others.

 

Ken

[mvarela]

  On 9/10/2013 at 7:50 AM, caliken said:

There is one basic thing I suggest to write any script at any pre-determined slant.

 

Whether it's Italic at 9 degrees or Copperplate at 55 degrees or Gothic at 90 degrees I always rotate the paper counter-clockwise so that the slope line is at right angles to the edge of my desk. This technique assumes a normal body-position facing the desk directly. In this way, I am always writing straight up and down, regardless of the style of script. It does mean that I am writing more 'uphill' with the more sloping scripts as I follow the baseline but it only seems strange at first. Incidentally, this helps with flex-nibbed writing because the tines open evenly when used with an oblique holder. This isn't carved in stone of course, but I find that it does help control the slope of writing. Give it a try.

 

This, of couse, is supplementary to the exccellent advice you've been given by Mickey and others.

 

Ken

That's actually how I try to work, but I think I'm somehow failing somehow.

[mvarela]

  On 9/10/2013 at 6:17 AM, MusinkMan said:

You have another letter that should arrive any day now. Probably tomorrow. I did receive yours as well. Got some cool paper from you too!

Well, the slant degree isn't as critical as you might think, as long as it's consistent. Spencerian masters took outrageous liberties with such things, yet their work was always stunning. Not to say that you should abandon all of the rules of course...but if you slant more than 52 degress, it won't be the end of the world. It must be consistent though, that part is true. Lord, I'm learning all about that from my new Spence "teacher". Lots of eye-opening stuff for sure. I was stressing about the wrong things...and not stressing about the things that really mattered. And was too stupid to realize the difference. hahaha But I'm learning, and hopefully I will turn the corner soon! Let me know when your letter gets there brother! I shared a couple of tips with you, I hope they are a help!

Glad the mailman did his work this time! Looking forward to reading yours!

[Mickey]

  On 9/9/2013 at 8:27 PM, mvarela said:

Once more, trying to work on my over-slanting...

 

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3695/9713332882_ae20d68770_h.jpg

 

BTW, that's the second verse of "Volver", one of the greatest tangos ever written. The most famous version was recorded by Carlos Gardel:

Thanks for the Gardel. I am a (not quite rabid) tango fan, but have seen only one of his movies, his last, El Dia Que Me Quieras. (I don't dance, don't ask me...)

 

The Spencerian is looking much more stable. Here are a couple of little (but difficult) things to focus on going forward.

 

1. Be careful that upstrokes, especially on the r and s, aren't too straight. They are subtly curved. If written too straight, they look as if they are intended to be on the primary slant line and thus convey unevenness. Remember, down strokes are (generally) straight and up strokes are (generally) curved. Look at the letter i. (You might also observe that only the very short part of the r and s above the x-line is on the primary slant.)

 

2. Be careful of the wedge on the d, p, and t. It is easy for them to appear over or under slanted. Look especially where these letter are close to the letter i. You'll see what I mean. Don't feel bad. This is just plain hard to do.

 

3. The majuscule S in Sentir would be more attractive if you confined the shade to the area below the center of the letter so that the loop crosses at very top of the shade, not in the middle. Look at http://www.iampeth.com/artwork/Madarasz_study_as_much.jpg (Also look at his d, p, and t. Note that it is the left edge of the wedge that is on the slant line.)

 

4. Keep the shade on a and o high and subtle. This is hard to do, (I fight the battle myself), but try to confine the shade to the upper 1/2 of the ellipsoid. Two things that help are keeping the ink thin enough and cleaning the point frequently. Remember, the lead in stroke and the shade should not merge. (This is very tough to do consistently.)

 

5. Don't try to shade the down stroke of the letter s. It looks heavy. It arrests the eye. Not shading this stroke at all is sufficiently difficult that whatever inadvertent shade you produce will look correct and elegant. Similarly, don't over-shade the letter r.

 

Well done.

[mvarela]

  On 9/10/2013 at 2:03 PM, Mickey said:

Thanks for the Gardel. I am a (not quite rabid) tango fan, but have seen only one of his movies, his last, El Dia Que Me Quieras. (I don't dance, don't ask me...)

 

The Spencerian is looking much more stable. Here are a couple of little (but difficult) things to focus on going forward.

 

1. Be careful that upstrokes, especially on the r and s, aren't too straight. They are subtly curved. If written too straight, they look as if they are intended to be on the primary slant line and thus convey unevenness. Remember, down strokes are (generally) straight and up strokes are (generally) curved. Look at the letter i. (You might also observe that only the very short part of the r and s above the x-line is on the primary slant.)

 

2. Be careful of the wedge on the d, p, and t. It is easy for them to appear over or under slanted. Look especially where these letter are close to the letter i. You'll see what I mean. Don't feel bad. This is just plain hard to do.

 

3. The majuscule S in Sentir would be more attractive if you confined the shade to the area below the center of the letter so that the loop crosses at very top of the shade, not in the middle. Look at http://www.iampeth.com/artwork/Madarasz_study_as_much.jpg (Also look at his d, p, and t. Note that it is the left edge of the wedge that is on the slant line.)

 

4. Keep the shade on a and o high and subtle. This is hard to do, (I fight the battle myself), but try to confine the shade to the upper 1/2 of the ellipsoid. Two things that help are keeping the ink thin enough and cleaning the point frequently. Remember, the lead in stroke and the shade should not merge. (This is very tough to do consistently.)

 

5. Don't try to shade the down stroke of the letter s. It looks heavy. It arrests the eye. Not shading this stroke at all is sufficiently difficult that whatever inadvertent shade you produce will look correct and elegant. Similarly, don't over-shade the letter r.

 

Well done.

You're most welcome for the tango... I'm not a huge fan, but good is good, regardless of the style and personal preferences

 

Thanks for all the tips, as well. I'll try and incorporate them. One question regarding the wedges in t, p and d, do you have any tips on how to align the right side of the wedge with the main slant? I have a feeling that the way I do it, the main slant line is approximately bisecting the wedge. I basically do them in a single stroke (I rarely go back and fix them), by splaying the tines and then pushing down and off the paper (or the opposite way for the p), but that results in a wedge roughly symmetrical around the main slant "line".

As for all the rest, I guess it's a matter of practice and more practice.

[Mickey]

  On 9/10/2013 at 2:19 PM, mvarela said:

You're most welcome for the tango... I'm not a huge fan, but good is good, regardless of the style and personal preferences

 

Thanks for all the tips, as well. I'll try and incorporate them. One question regarding the wedges in t, p and d, do you have any tips on how to align the right side of the wedge with the main slant?

It's the LEFT side that should be on the slant line. I believe one technique is to select the correct starting point for the down stroke, ground the left tine first, so the right tine slides right, then track the left tine while gradually letting off pressure on the right. Similarly for the p wedge, lean just a little harder on the left tine as you pull the stroke, the left tine tracking your original trajectory while the right tine gradually slides right.

 

That may be what's happening, but it's probably easiest to simply concentrate on the left side of the wedge and let the firmware write itself. Repeat a few thousand times and your hands will do it naturally.

[mvarela]

  On 9/10/2013 at 2:57 PM, Mickey said:

It's the LEFT side that should be on the slant line. I believe one technique is to select the correct starting point for the down stroke, ground the left tine first, so the right tine slides right, then track the left tine while gradually letting off pressure on the right. Similarly for the p wedge, lean just a little harder on the left tine as you pull the stroke, the left tine tracking your original trajectory while the right tine gradually slides right.

 

That may be what's happening, but it's probably easiest to simply concentrate on the left side of the wedge and let the firmware write itself. Repeat a few thousand times and your hands will do it naturally.

Yes, I meant "right" as in "correct". Sorry about the confusion. Anyway, I'll do a few sessions of ascender and descender wedges, and see if I come to grips with it.

[thang1thang2]

  On 9/10/2013 at 2:57 PM, Mickey said:

It's the LEFT side that should be on the slant line. I believe one technique is to select the correct starting point for the down stroke, ground the left tine first, so the right tine slides right, then track the left tine while gradually letting off pressure on the right. Similarly for the p wedge, lean just a little harder on the left tine as you pull the stroke, the left tine tracking your original trajectory while the right tine gradually slides right.

 

One technique that Madarasz used was he would write the 't' in three strokes. He would come up as if he were writing an 'i' and then he would stop before coming down. He would then lift the pen and follow the slant line and then '7' out his wedge and follow it back down to the baseline. After you do that you can either draw in the shade manually or you can snap the shade down with sufficient practice. The 7, when properly done, will form the right-most and upper part of the 'wedge' leaving only the right side to be drawn or snapped in. (This sounds confusing, but it's pretty simple if you see a drawn diagram of it)

 

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/ornamental_penmanship/del_tysdal_lessons/DelOPInst02.pdf

 

Look at the very last two images of here. You see that, when writing his 't' he comes up in three strokes. The first, the lead in, is i height. The second is the start of the top and then back down in a hairline and then the third is the '7' part where you draw out the proper width, etc, for the snap shade. You do this so that the left side is always perfectly formed and on the baseline. In the first example image, the lines are separated for visual clarity.

[mvarela]

Here's a couple of bits from tonight (please excuse typos and corrections... I'm sleep deprived).

 

http://i.imgur.com/099A0NX.jpg

 

And a nice quotation from Saint Exupéry:

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7366/9743717716_871c23f346_o.png

[MissChief]

  On 8/9/2013 at 5:36 AM, Scribe_Not said:

Day 2 of practice drills.

For some reason that "can't walk and chew gum" saying comes to mind.

I'm gonna be counting slinkies tonight... at 200 beats per minute.

Wow! Does that ever take me back to third and fourth grades. We had to practice like that when learning cursive writing. Yes, I'm old! LOL

 

Interestingly, earlier today, I printed up some Spencerian guide sheets and just wrote my usual cursive style. My handwriting is still pretty even and Grade four was about 50 years ago.

[Mickey]

During my morning practice, I may have made a discovery, at least for myself, and I thought I might pass it along. I was working on the minuscule l, or more specifically the pairs ll, lk, and lh, also those pair in combination with vowels, both leading and trailing. I wasn't pleasing myself. Then I remembered reading about one of those 'secrets of Madarasz,' most of which I've been disappointed to learn are observations by some third person with no explanation of why the great penman did what he did. I put for the following theory for discussion.

 

This particular 'secret' concerned the writing of the l and similar letters. According to the author (sorry can't remember who), Madarasz wrote the first 1/2 - 2/3 of the up stroke with arm movement, the top fraction with the fingers, and the rest with the arm. All well and good, but why? The article didn't explain or at least not clearly enough to penetrate my skull. It also didn't state whether other skilled penmen might be doing the exact same thing or if this was in deed the sole property of the 'great one.' My belief now is the former is true, that every skilled penman eventually comes to grips with the same problem and for their best work employs a similar technique. Let me explain.

 

Most of the letter l is easily described by the 30 degree upstroke curve, the 52 degree straight down stroke, and following 30 degree upstroke, but little is said about the transitions between these lines, the top of the loop and the bottom curve. It is at these two points where I believe Madarasz' fingers took over. The transitions need to be gently rounded (to look correct) and at the velocity at which high quality work is produced, I doubt that arm muscles are competent. I believe the fingers nearly 'draw' these transitions or they exist as distinct but unstated finger 'principles'. (I favor the second possibility, as it allows for the transitions to be embedded for faster writing.)

 

If my theory is correct (more or less) the transitions also need to be considered in the writing rhythm. If you leave out the time slot for the transition, you get spiky top curves on your 'l', 'h', and 'k', variable loop width, and, quite possibly, heavy downstrokes. (Similar maladies can affect the descenders, as well.)

 

Not to pick on mvarela, (post 397 is simply convenient), but take a look at post #397. Look specifically at the shape of the (l, f, h, k) top curve, the width of the loop, and where the two arms of the l, f, h, and k, cross. One should also look for unintended heavy down-strokes. I believe all the 'mistakes' on these letters can be explained in terms of that transition at the top of the letter. The transitions should be separate from the principle strokes, needing its own time slice and special instructions, which should probably include lightening the touch.

 

At speed, the special instruction might become embedded, but at careful speeds, they need to be accommodated.

 

Thoughts anyone?

[mvarela]

  On 9/16/2013 at 3:55 PM, Mickey said:

During my morning practice, I may have made a discovery, at least for myself, and I thought I might pass it along. I was working on the minuscule l, or more specifically the pairs ll, lk, and lh, also those pair in combination with vowels, both leading and trailing. I wasn't pleasing myself. Then I remembered reading about one of those 'secrets of Madarasz,' most of which I've been disappointed to learn are observations by some third person with no explanation of why the great penman did what he did. I put for the following theory for discussion.

 

This particular 'secret' concerned the writing of the l and similar letters. According to the author (sorry can't remember who), Madarasz wrote the first 1/2 - 2/3 of the up stroke with arm movement, the top fraction with the fingers, and the rest with the arm. All well and good, but why? The article didn't explain or at least not clearly enough to penetrate my skull. It also didn't state whether other skilled penmen might be doing the exact same thing or if this was in deed the sole property of the 'great one.' My belief now is the former is true, that every skilled penman eventually comes to grips with the same problem and for their best work employs a similar technique. Let me explain.

 

Most of the letter l is easily described by the 30 degree upstroke curve, the 52 degree straight down stroke, and following 30 degree upstroke, but little is said about the transitions between these lines, the top of the loop and the bottom curve. It is at these two points where I believe Madarasz' fingers took over. The transitions need to be gently rounded (to look correct) and at the velocity at which high quality work is produced, I doubt that arm muscles are competent. I believe the fingers nearly 'draw' these transitions or they exist as distinct but unstated finger 'principles'. (I favor the second possibility, as it allows for the transitions to be embedded for faster writing.)

 

If my theory is correct (more or less) the transitions also need to be considered in the writing rhythm. If you leave out the time slot for the transition, you get spiky top curves on your 'l', 'h', and 'k', variable loop width, and, quite possibly, heavy downstrokes. (Similar maladies can affect the descenders, as well.)

 

Not to pick on mvarela, (post 397 is simply convenient), but take a look at post #397. Look specifically at the shape of the (l, f, h, k) top curve, the width of the loop, and where the two arms of the l, f, h, and k, cross. One should also look for unintended heavy down-strokes. I believe all the 'mistakes' on these letters can be explained in terms of that transition at the top of the letter. The transitions should be separate from the principle strokes, needing its own time slice and special instructions, which should probably include lightening the touch.

 

At speed, the special instruction might become embedded, but at careful speeds, they need to be accommodated.

 

Thoughts anyone?

 

I hadn't heard that bit about Madarasz's loops... I've always had issues with those long upstrokes (they tend to get a bit jiggly), but at the size I normally write, I have the impression that transitioning twice between arm movement and finger movement would probably result in visible "joins". That's of course just an impression (I haven't tested it, and with any new thing, practice would probably make for better results). I'll do some in my next practice, and see if and how it works for me.