Learning Spencerian...

[caliken]

 

2. if the ornamented majuscules are done loops, letter, and shading all in one swoop or in separate strokes. If I start the initial loops, and go right into the shade all the way to the baseline, it's awfully difficult to target and wind up right on the baseline, which leads me to believe that maybe the loop is done first, then you start where the loop left off and slowly pull the heavy-shaded bit.

 

Anyone?

 

I'm doing them with the minimum number of pen lifts, which seems to have been a point of pride for serious practitioners. For example, the letter R: the horizontal loop is followed without lift by the capital stem, which I presume you mean to shade. The right side of the R, starts within the loop and is also a single stroke with no lifts. I get the impression that unnecessary pen lifts were a big thing (to avoid) and that it's almost a game for the pros to find inventive (and beautiful) ways to complete 3 initial monograms and such with absolutely no pen lifts. (Look at the end of the Del Tysdal video I pointed you to in the Copperplate thread.) I think this desire to minimize strokes (and potential connection blunders) is why we see in some of the videos the penmen rehearsing complex strokes, then executing them as single gestures. Air-pen! (Someone at the SF show mentioned Saturday that as a child he used to kid his grandfather about winding up his arm before writing.)

 

BTW, pretty gorgeous stuff you're doing already. My goal is likely different than yours (I'm adopting monoline Spencerian as a working at speed, everyday hand) but I've got to admire good work and ability. Good work.

If you have a look at this video clip, you'll see heavily shaded strokes executed in one swift, movement.

 

Ken

http://www.iampeth.com/videos/pages/deCollibus_ornamental_penmanship.htm

[Bierce]

Thanks,

 

 

for the advice. I see what you're getting at. I just didn't want to spend a lot of time learning the incorrect technique, and am finding the correct way is proving to be attainable with practice. BTW, I was trying to flourish using my copperplate flourishing hold, which for me is thumb on top, and pen shaft held between index and third finger. Found out Spencerian flourishing is a whole lot easier with the standard everyday pen hold. Interesting.

[Hex]

Thanks for starting this topic, Texaspenman! I shall be keeping a close eye on this thread, although I'm not going to participate - need to master my Copperplate first

 

Well Fuchsia, I see your point though by the time I get my copperplate to your level, I will have a lot more grey hair than I already have.

I am thinking about trying a 50/50 practice session, say 45 minutes each.

Additionally, there are all these new writing supplies to go shopping for. :ltcapd:

[Hex]

Thanks,

 

 

for the advice. I see what you're getting at. I just didn't want to spend a lot of time learning the incorrect technique, and am finding the correct way is proving to be attainable with practice. BTW, I was trying to flourish using my copperplate flourishing hold, which for me is thumb on top, and pen shaft held between index and third finger. Found out Spencerian flourishing is a whole lot easier with the standard everyday pen hold. Interesting.

 

Bierce, did you do this with something similar to a a Gillot 303 nib ?

And it's beautiful to boot.

[Bierce]

Bierce, did you do this with something similar to a a Gillot 303 nib ?

 

You win the cigar. Although, at this point, I'm losing control of the stroke if I try to get the real monster shades going on with it (I get the current issue blue ones, from JNB). The fact that I haven't been at this style but for a few days means it's probably my lack of technique and not the pen, but time will tell if maybe another pen would be better for this. We'll see. I tried a Hunt 99 early on in my ongoing trip down copperplate lane. That thing was scary flexy; I put it down and slowly backed away. I haven't touched it since, as it seems like a lousy tool to learn with, but I'll bet it excels in the hands of a seasoned penster.

[Mickey]

I tried a Hunt 99 early on in my ongoing trip down copperplate lane. That thing was scary flexy; I put it down and slowly backed away. I haven't touched it since, as it seems like a lousy tool to learn with, but I'll bet it excels in the hands of a seasoned penster.

 

I know what you mean. A few months ago I got a very good deal on Brause 76 nibs and bought a mitt full. For now, they rest safe for some future day, save one I trot out occasionally to keep myself humble. I can just about use it for business hand, but for ornamental work it is still beyond me. Kind of like buying a Ferrari for the radio.

[Mickey]

I've nothing earth shaking to post, but I thought I'd put in another plug for getting desk and chair heights correct.

 

I'm nearly 6' 6" (198cm) but with relatively short legs. Finding things like cars and furniture which fit is a big problem. Consequently, I write at a drafting table, which is a little better for me than most writing desks. I've tinkered with it for years, but never quite succeeded in getting it right until last night. Frustrated, I took it apart and did a little extempore redesign work, remounting the surface and changing some of the attachment points. Now I can sit comfortably upright with the surface at the exact height to allow my writing arm to rest gently on the surface - no more propping myself up with the left arm. The difference in ease and quality of work is not at all subtle. Spencerian and Copperplate majuscules, which previously had been painful chores, are now fun to write and finally begin to resemble the intended characters.

 

So fellow scratchers and scrapers, it's time to get your desks and chairs in order.

[ninly]

I wish this thread had been posted over the summer, when I was really engaged in learning monoline Spencerian ("business hand" a la E. C. Mills). I even considered, but stopped short of, starting such a thread, inspired by the wonderful copperplate one.

 

Here's about where I left off with really formal practice, as I posted in the little penmanship contest we had:

 

http://baby.ninly.net/pen/psaume45-1.png

 

This is a later, but less formal, practice sheet:

 

http://baby.ninly.net/pen/spencer2.jpg

 

My main efforts were toward a monoline script to inform my daily cursive, which has changed MUCH since the summer. I almost never wrote in cursive before all this, at least not since 3rd grade. I get positive comments on my handwriting fairly often now, though it's generally a lot less formal than the above.

 

THAT SAID... I recently acquired a Noodler's flex pen, so I'd like to revisit some of the old copybooks from IAMPETH and see how it goes with some shading in the picture. Looking forward to seeing this thread progress!

[smk]

I too am going to learn Spencerian. I hope that texaspenman, Mickey and Bierce will help with tips from their learning experience and Ken will shed light on the finer aspects of the hand.

 

I have decided to use the publications from the Spencer Brothers on IAMPETH.com for guidance. I have printed out the first two pages of Spencer's New Standard Writing for reference and will be using the examples in Practical Penmanship for exercises.

 

I spent some time today trying it out with various nibs. I have good results with a number of nibs if I go slow. However, a part of the allure of Spencerian is the fluidity with which it is executed. I have chosen to start with relatively stiff nibs for the miniscules practice settling on the Nikko G nib and a modern Mitchell Elbow Copperplate nib. I'll probably need to use more flexible nibs for the majuscules but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

 

I'll be using Higgins Eternal with a little bit of Gum Arabic for these exercises.

 

One of the challenges I know I'm going to face, especially when trying to write the hand fluently, is to keep from letting my regular handwriting habits creep in. I'm going to start slow so this won't be an issue for now but something I expect to grapple with later on.

 

I expect to upload my first exercise sheet in a day or two and welcome others to join me in learning this hand.

 

Salman

[Mickey]

The Nikko G nib is a nib Michael Sull recommends for unstressed or lightly stressed Spencerian. In fact, the holder I recently purchased from him arrived perfectly adjusted (for me) with a G already loaded.

 

The only piece of advice I would offer you right now is to attend to the rhythm of the strokes. Doing this definitely helps me. Whenever my letter forms start degenerating, it's almost always because the 'music' of the nib is being rushed.

[caliken]

I too am going to learn Spencerian.

Salman,

 

Having seen your Copperplate and the rapid progress you've made, I have no doubt that you'll soon get to grips with Spencerian Script. I hope that you don't mind one piece of advice.

 

Both styles use flexible nibs, usually with an oblique holder.

In all other respects, they are quite different from one another.

 

When working on Spencerian, try to put everything you know about Copperplate out of your mind.

 

For example, one basic but important difference is that in Copperplate minuscules every shaded stroke is straight and parallel and at the same width throughout a piece of writing.(This doesn't always apply to Engraver's Script, which is different)

 

In Spencerian, straight shaded parallel strokes are avoided at all times.

 

I look forward to seeing the results of your endeavours.

 

Ken

[sniper910]

I plan on participating also, though I probably won't have much practice time. Still working on my copperplate and gothic, but this script interests me for some reason

[smk]

Mickey thanks for the tips. Its good to know that the G nib is recommended for Spencerian. Its early days for me but I can see your point regarding the rhythm. I quite enjoyed my first practice session.

 

Sniper, I welcome your company but I also understand learning 3 hands at a time might be a challenge, especially when two of the use pointed nibs. I remember reading somewhere that one should learn one hand at a time.

 

Ken, thanks for your guidance. I can understand that Spencerian and Copperplate are fundamentally different hands. In fact I'm more concerned about my regular handwriting, which is a fast cursive, having an influence here. I had not realized that parallel shaded strokes are to be avoided, thanks for pointing that out.

 

Here's my first exercise sheet.

 

 

What I learned:

• I started out with a 4mm guide sheet but quickly realized that 3mm is more suitable for me. I printed out 3mm guide sheets for practice and it seems to help.
  
• I'm having a bit of trouble keeping the width of the letters same as the height. I tend to make the slanted strokes much wider than is required resulting in letters that are too wide. I made yet another guidesheet with dotted horizontal lines that are spaced so 2 dots should make up the length of one slanted stroke. I haven't used it yet but expect it to help.
  

 

Plans for next practice session:

• I restricted the first session to i, u, w and some m,n. I intend to get the width right before moving on. I should be able to get it right in the next session.
  
• Concentrate on the rhythm and hand movement. I tend to write using my fingers more which results in frequent pauses as I move my hand to 'catch up'.
  

 

Any and all input is appreciated.

 

Salman

[sniper910]

i agree i may be trying to learn too many at once salman, but the gothic writing is something i can fall back on and have fun with. i have a little more experience with that than with copperplate. plus, by learning both copperplate and spencerian, i can split my time between two scripts rather than getting burnt out on practicing one too often. as long as i don't get the two mixed up and don't rush or pick up any bad habits

[Wcwilson]

I too have been looking to improve my handwriting, and thought I would like to learn Spencerian. I think it comes from seeing old journals from the 1800's and wanting to emulate the handwriting of that period. So, I asked for (and received) the Spencerian Key to Practical Penmanship for Christmas. It indicates the down strokes should be at a 52 degree angle, but I put a protractor on some of the guide sheets on the IAMPETH website, and they look more like 47 degrees. What's the correct angle, and what's my source for the best guide sheet. Even on IAMPETH they have at least 5 different sheets to choose from. I like the mild shading. Does the Nikko G serve that purpose?

[Mickey]

The correct slant is indeed 52 degrees and a Nikko G is a perfectly good point for unstressed and lightly stressed Spencerian. It gives good hairlines and moderate shades. Which ink and holder are you using?

[Wcwilson]

I was going to call John Neal Bookseller this morning and get there take. I've been playing with the Brause Banzup .5 mm and 1.0 mm with a General's cork holder. I've been practicing on plain old copy paper, which I used to print the guide sheets from IAMPETH. Ink, I'm trying various things, Private Reserve Ink, some old Mont Blanc ink that I've had, Calligraphy Ink, Dr. Ph Martin's Bombay. I've gotten a journal (Whitelines) which I've been practicing my letters, and then also a Leuchtturm 1917 journal that I've been more or less printing in. A word here to explain. I'm a 50 year old leftie who back in October decided I was tired of writing left handed (e.g. constantly ruining my sleevs, smearing ink, not being able to write on a white board, etc. etc.) so I've been working this for close to two months and now except for my signature, I'm pretty much using right hand only.

 

I started googling cursive methods and stumbled upon the IAMPETH website and found Spencerian. The ultimate goal is simply to improve my penmanship for business and social writing purposes. At this point I'm not interested in Calligraphy, per se, or Copperplate (yet anyway) but I do like the heavy/light look of Spencerian, and the classic style. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

Wade

[Mickey]

I was going to call John Neal Bookseller this morning and get there take. I've been playing with the Brause Banzup .5 mm and 1.0 mm with a General's cork holder. I've been practicing on plain old copy paper, which I used to print the guide sheets from IAMPETH. Ink, I'm trying various things, Private Reserve Ink, some old Mont Blanc ink that I've had, Calligraphy Ink, Dr. Ph Martin's Bombay. I've gotten a journal (Whitelines) which I've been practicing my letters, and then also a Leuchtturm 1917 journal that I've been more or less printing in. A word here to explain. I'm a 50 year old leftie who back in October decided I was tired of writing left handed (e.g. constantly ruining my sleevs, smearing ink, not being able to write on a white board, etc. etc.) so I've been working this for close to two months and now except for my signature, I'm pretty much using right hand only.

 

I started googling cursive methods and stumbled upon the IAMPETH website and found Spencerian. The ultimate goal is simply to improve my penmanship for business and social writing purposes. At this point I'm not interested in Calligraphy, per se, or Copperplate (yet anyway) but I do like the heavy/light look of Spencerian, and the classic style. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

Wade

 

This is not the right gear for Spencerian, which (unless you are a left-handed underwriter) is best done with an oblique holder, not a straight holder. The nibs you mention are also incorrect, being more appropriate for italic or other edged pen lettering. Zebra or Nikko G nibs would be appropriate for Spencerian, though there a number of other nibs which would work. Look under pointed pens, not broad points. A good ink would be Higgins Eternal, McCaffery's Iron Gall, or Moon Palace Sumi ink. Again, there a number of good inks not on this list. For other hint, look through the Copperplate thread. The equipment choices are very similar and for a beginner, virtually identical, the differences being mostly of preference rather than type.

[Wcwilson]

Appreciate the feedback. I called John Neal and spoke with a nice fellow who set me up with a nib holder, some of the Nikko G nibs, and the Iron Gall ink. Any suggestions on the guide sheets?

[Mickey]

Appreciate the feedback. I called John Neal and spoke with a nice fellow who set me up with a nib holder, some of the Nikko G nibs, and the Iron Gall ink. Any suggestions on the guide sheets?

 

You might get back on the line with that nice fellow and see if you can add to your order

 

B2463. Spencerian Practice Pack/Sull

 

which includes a few guide sheets (to pull under your practice paper), as well as a copy book format exercise / method. My slant is pretty consistent, so I use the "make your own guidelines" link on IAMPETH to generate lined paper with the appropriate x-height, which for me is 2.5 mm.