Learning Spencerian...

[mvarela]

PIA stands for Paper & Ink Arts. It's an online shop where you can find, among other things, calligraphy supplies.

[mvarela]

More practice...

 

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2872/9639716166_f3a3c0482c_b.jpg

[Mickey]

  On 8/31/2013 at 6:42 PM, mvarela said:

More practice...

 

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2872/9639716166_f3a3c0482c_b.jpg

Still, at 42 degree, rather too slanted for my taste. Here's something to consider. Increased slant exacerbates whatever structural defects there are in the basic letter forms. Even Madarasz, as skilled a penman as we're likely to find, never (?) wrote much below 48 degrees.

[mvarela]

  On 8/31/2013 at 7:07 PM, Mickey said:

Still, at 42 degree, rather too slanted for my taste. Here's something to consider. Increased slant exacerbates whatever structural defects there are in the basic letter forms. Even Madarasz, as skilled a penman as we're likely to find, never (?) wrote much below 48 degrees.

As usual, thanks for the feedback, Mickey. May I ask where you're measuring from? From the baselines, I get closer to 45-46 in the first few lines, and, it drops below. Note that this was taken with a phone camera, not scanned, and has a clockwise skew or 1 or 2 degrees. Still too low, as you point out, despite the guidelines being exactly at 48. I obviously have a big issue with this...

[smk]

  On 8/31/2013 at 7:30 PM, mvarela said:

... Still too low, as you point out, despite the guidelines being exactly at 48. I obviously have a big issue with this...

 

This is probably because you have been used to writing at that angle. Just relax and find a few words or sentences you like writing and enjoy the process - you'll get over it in due time.

 

The basic 'i', 'u' and 'n' exercise are superb for re-learning the slant. I have tendency to be too upright (closer to my natural handwriting) and need a bit of reminding from time to time. I seem to have good luck with the word 'minimum' - gets me in the zone and I like writing it.

 

Salman

[mvarela]

  On 8/31/2013 at 7:42 PM, smk said:

 

This is probably because you have been used to writing at that angle. Just relax and find a few words or sentences you like writing and enjoy the process - you'll get over it in due time.

 

The basic 'i', 'u' and 'n' exercise are superb for re-learning the slant. I have tendency to be too upright (closer to my natural handwriting) and need a bit of reminding from time to time. I seem to have good luck with the word 'minimum' - gets me in the zone and I like writing it.

 

Salman

Thanks Salman! I'll try this "back to basics" approach...

[Mickey]

  On 8/31/2013 at 7:30 PM, mvarela said:

As usual, thanks for the feedback, Mickey. May I ask where you're measuring from? From the baselines, I get closer to 45-46 in the first few lines, and, it drops below. Note that this was taken with a phone camera, not scanned, and has a clockwise skew or 1 or 2 degrees. Still too low, as you point out, despite the guidelines being exactly at 48. I obviously have a big issue with this...

I set one axis on your writing line (I reference an entire line, no single short stretch) and measure a number of the longer down-strokes (d, l, t, etc.), then average the result. Slant is really determined by the down strokes, which are mostly straight. Upstroke are arcs, their measurable slant angle dependent on their end points. Consequently, they make poor visual references.

 

Maybe this will help you break old habits. Only pay attention to the angle at which the down-strokes return to the writing line. When you become consistent with them, pay attention to the angle of the first stroke of descenders (f, j, g, etc.). Ignore everything else for awhile. When you are consistently nailing 52 (or 48) degrees with those strokes, start concentrating on the width of the loops. This will set the upstroke angle. I also recommend that you work at 52 degree. When you conquer that, then try 48.

 

Formula for the letter 'l': curve out at (about) 30 degree, turn around and return straight down at 52. Similarly, the formula for descenders is straight down at 52 degree, turn around and curve back at 30.

[mvarela]

  On 8/31/2013 at 8:13 PM, Mickey said:

I set one axis on your writing line (I reference an entire line, no single short stretch) and measure a number of the longer down-strokes (d, l, t, etc.), then average the result. Slant is really determined by the down strokes, which are mostly straight. Upstroke are arcs, their measurable slant angle dependent on their end points. Consequently, they make poor visual references.

 

Maybe this will help you break old habits. Only pay attention to the angle at which the down-strokes return to the writing line. When you become consistent with them, pay attention to the angle of the first stroke of descenders (f, j, g, etc.). Ignore everything else for awhile. When you are consistently nailing 52 (or 48) degrees with those strokes, start concentrating on the width of the loops. This will set the upstroke angle. I also recommend that you work at 52 degree. When you conquer that, then try 48.

 

Formula for the letter 'l': curve out at (about) 30 degree, turn around and return straight down at 52. Similarly, the formula for descenders is straight down at 52 degree, turn around and curve back at 30.

Thanks again, Mickey... I really appreciate you taking the time to help so much!

[MusinkMan]

Here's some of my Spencerian practice doodling. I was trying to get those big fat wedge shapes on the t's and d's by doing a little retouching. I don't know if I was successful though...can't really tell if it's "better" or "worse" than a "regular" swell would have been? It's more "dramatic", but that doesn't mean it's more pleasing to the eye. Ho hum...who knows...the more I learn, the more I realize that I am sooooo in the dark on everything! haha

 

[Mickey]

  On 9/1/2013 at 7:08 PM, MusinkMan said:

Here's some of my Spencerian practice doodling. I was trying to get those big fat wedge shapes on the t's and d's by doing a little retouching. I don't know if I was successful though...can't really tell if it's "better" or "worse" than a "regular" swell would have been? It's more "dramatic", but that doesn't mean it's more pleasing to the eye. Ho hum...who knows...the more I learn, the more I realize that I am sooooo in the dark on everything! haha

 

The questions to ask yourself are 'does the shade advance or stop the eye' and 'which do I want?' These are pretty much speed bumps.

[Mickey]

Software flatulence

Edited September 1, 2013 by Mickey

[MusinkMan]

  On 9/1/2013 at 7:25 PM, Mickey said:

 

  On 9/1/2013 at 7:24 PM, Mickey said:

The questions to ask yourself are 'do the shades advance or stop the eye' and 'which do I want?' These are pretty much speed bumps.

 

Yeah, probably so. Yet this "over-emphasizing" seemed to be a popular thing back in the day for some reason. Oh well, fun to do. Always learn something new with each new experiment.

[Mickey]

  On 9/1/2013 at 8:48 PM, MusinkMan said:

Yet this "over-emphasizing" seemed to be a popular thing back in the day for some reason.

Bad taste is never out of style.

[GClef]

  On 9/1/2013 at 7:24 PM, Mickey said:

The questions to ask yourself are 'does the shade advance or stop the eye' and 'which do I want?' These are pretty much speed bumps.

Thanks Mickey, I just learned something new today. The "advance or stop" consideration never occurred to me before. Excellent point.

[MusinkMan]

  On 9/1/2013 at 10:04 PM, Mickey said:

Bad taste is never out of style.

 

hahaha...True Dat!

[Iso*]

As Madarasz once said - study as much as you practice.
And another said - eye training is just as important as muscular training.
Both are tedious to attain.

Your shades, Musinkman, are a bit over-used. The older style suggests that shading should be generally applied not more than every other letter, from P.Z. Bloser.

But with much practice, I assure that your hand will smoooooth out, and become much lighter. It looks like good practice so far. If you keep up will with your movement exercises, it won't take long.

[MusinkMan]

I hear ya Iso...I over-shaded on purpose. I was trying to mimic some of the heavily shaded writings from older works that I had seen. I've seen that sort of thing on old Spencerian writings from the golden years, where the penman used heavy overshading for a dramatic and somewhat playful effect. I think that some of this playfulness has merit, even though it's thought to be in bad taste by some. I mean really...look at some of the stuff Madarasz himself came up with...lots of that stuff sure wasn't "textbook spencerian", and he was the greatest of them all. I guess that's one of the things that appeal to me about the Spencerian hand...the "individuality" and liberties that different writers use; as individual and personal as your regular handwriting...yet it is still very much identifiable as Spencerian and as a legitimate schooled hand. I want it all.....and I want it now! hahahahaha

[Scribe_Not]

  On 9/1/2013 at 10:30 PM, GClef said:

Thanks Mickey, I just learned something new today. The "advance or stop" consideration never occurred to me before. Excellent point.

+1 on the learned epiphany.

 

And in the words of Sandra Bullock...

"Stay on or get off?";

SPEED, 20th Century Fox 1994.

[Estefa]

Hi there, I am jumping in. I am quite new here i.e. that's my first post, but I have been reading here now for quite some time. Great site and wonderful thread - thanks to all for so much interesting, beautiful input and advice!

 

I have started trying to learn spencerian some weeks ago.

 

My materials:

I started with the "Spencerian System of Practical Penmanship", a Century Oblique holder with a Brause Rose, and iron gall ink. In the meantime I switched to a Gillot 404 and sometimes other ink (just for a change). I am now also waiting for the Michael Sull books to arrive from Johnnealbooks (and for a beautiful holder from Brian (Musinkman) ).

 

What I learned:

1. I filled quite some pages, before I found out - mainly on this site! - that it will not work without really learning the arm movement techniques. I must admit that it was quite mysterious to me because I couldn't imagine to form controlled letters without even the side of my hand touching the paper / table. I now usually start working some time with the first exercise sheet from "Spencerian Script, taken from Real Penwork, 1881" (from Iampeth) and then work with the copy sheets in the booklets. One by one now.

I still think it's really hard and I tend to either get too fast - then everything gets sloppy and uncontrolled and ugly - or I go slow but then I mostly start working too much with finger movement, and touching the paper with the hand, and everything gets shaky and ugly …

2. It is also hard to keep the slant. It tends to get too extreme in the downstrokes is what I think.

3. Shades. I have difficulty to start shading later in the downstroke - you can see it in the Capital stems for example. I have Copperplate practice, maybe that is a problem.

4. Spacing. When I concentrate on letterspacing, lines get shaky because I get too slow - and when I get too fast, I loose control of the spacing.

5. Coffee is not very helpful … beeing tired either.

 

I post here some of my current work sheets. If anyone has some wonderful idea how to make this much easier and faster would be great! - I guess I know that the simple answer will be "Practice, and then practice, and some more practice" .

 

I am sorry if something sounds strange - i am not a native speaker and surely make mistakes!

 

It seems I cannot upload pictures from flickr for some reason. So I try to attach them hope that works!

 

[Mickey]

  On 9/9/2013 at 9:33 AM, Estefa said:

 

What I learned:

1. I filled quite some pages, before I found out - mainly on this site! - that it will not work without really learning the arm movement techniques. I must admit that it was quite mysterious to me because I couldn't imagine to form controlled letters without even the side of my hand touching the paper / table. I now usually start working some time with the first exercise sheet from "Spencerian Script, taken from Real Penwork, 1881" (from Iampeth) and then work with the copy sheets in the booklets. One by one now.

I still think it's really hard and I tend to either get too fast - then everything gets sloppy and uncontrolled and ugly - or I go slow but then I mostly start working too much with finger movement, and touching the paper with the hand, and everything gets shaky and ugly …

2. It is also hard to keep the slant. It tends to get too extreme in the downstrokes is what I think.

3. Shades. I have difficulty to start shading later in the downstroke - you can see it in the Capital stems for example. I have Copperplate practice, maybe that is a problem.

4. Spacing. When I concentrate on letterspacing, lines get shaky because I get too slow - and when I get too fast, I loose control of the spacing.

5. Coffee is not very helpful … beeing tired either.

 

I post here some of my current work sheets. If anyone has some wonderful idea how to make this much easier and faster would be great! - I guess I know that the simple answer will be "Practice, and then practice, and some more practice" .

 

I am sorry if something sounds strange - i am not a native speaker and surely make mistakes!

 

 

Don't worry. You're easy to understand. Here are a few hints.

 

1. Don't worry too much about touching the paper. Your hand can brush the page. Just don't lean on the desk with your writing hand. It helps to wear long sleeved shirts.

 

2. Remember, there are two important angles in Spencerian, 30 degrees and 52 degrees. Practice the letter l. Begin the upstroke at 30 degrees, loop around, then pull the stroke straight back down at 52 degrees, almost to the writing line before turning back up. Concentrate on the straight down stroke and you will eventually memorize the proper slant.

 

3. Everyone has trouble starting shades too early. Begin your stem practice writing stems with no shade at all. Learn the feeling of down strokes with no shade. Then, try to shade only the last 1/8 of the stroke. You'll probably still start too early, but the results will be correct.

 

4. Concentrate on learning the 30 degree angle up stroke, not just the 52 down stroke. This will help your spacing. Practice writing eee. This will help you get a feel for the spacing. Spacing is not automatic in Spencerian. You need to train your eye to see (imagine) the proper spacing. Look ahead. Look where you want the pen to go, not where it is. That will help your spacing, too.

 

5. Drink less coffee.

 

Welcome