Learning Spencerian...

[hlyuqi]

I recently obtained some cards (the largest is 6 x 8.8cm) with names written on them in ornamental script. The seller thought they were from the 1920s, but had no more information. I assume these were all written by the same person, but I'm not 100% certain.

 

The minuscules are approx 1.5mm tall and very faint pencil head and baselines are visible when closely examining the cards.

 

I have scanned them:

 

(This is the largest, being 6 x 8.8cm)

 

http://i.imgur.com/UuJh6.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/IoBj7.jpg

Wow!They are veryyyyyyyy fascinating, how I envy you!! I've been always dreaming of having even just one piece of real Ornamental Penmanship Signature like these!

Words just can not express my love on them,so I pick up my pen, and imitate two of them, to show my respect to the skillful penman who executed these beautiful cards.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8435/7814765148_54195146e3_h.jpg

[Columba Livia]

so I pick up my pen, and imitate two of them, to show my respect to the skillful penman who executed these beautiful cards.

 

Your work is excellent. It is a good tribute.

[schin]

That is beautiful! It seems like the paper is extra smooth? Every time I try to do an upstroke, my nib gets caught in the paper and create splotches.

[hlyuqi]

That is beautiful! It seems like the paper is extra smooth? Every time I try to do an upstroke, my nib gets caught in the paper and create splotches.

Yes, when doing this rapidly executed style,you'd better use smooth papers.But it really seldom happens when my nib would cut in the paper even I use some papers which are not so smooth.Have you ever adjust your flange angle? Set a proper angle of your flange will make the nib slide on the paper more smoothly.

 

See here:http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/getting_started/adjusting.pdf

[JoeyZ]

Hello all, diving into this as well. I received the Michael Sull kit just a few days ago and I have a few starter questions, if you don't mind.

 

-- I am having scratchy issues with a Nikko G nib too. I have adjusted the angle of the flange and the issue seems to be a dryness to the McCaffrey's ink. On a whim I tried Noodler's Kiowa Pecan and the same nib felt much more smooth. Is this just a matter of getting used to the penman ink or do I need to adjust the ink a bit?

 

-- What practice regimen did you start with? I have filled a couple of pages with i's, u's, and n's so far. Do you recommend only focusing on small letter forms at first or incorporating the cross drill exercises at the same time?

 

Thank you, everyone, for leading me down another rabbit hole.

[thang1thang2]

Yes, when doing this rapidly executed style,you'd better use smooth papers.But it really seldom happens when my nib would cut in the paper even I use some papers which are not so smooth.Have you ever adjust your flange angle? Set a proper angle of your flange will make the nib slide on the paper more smoothly.

 

See here:http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/getting_started/adjusting.pdf

 

The degree of how heavy you hold your pen on the paper is also crucial for upstrokes (and downstrokes as well, but not quite as much as copperplate). I've always struggled to maintain the lightest amount of pressure possible while keeping it constant; it's good practice, but I need a lot more. I can't wait to get my penmanship supplies in the mail, and then begins the debate of whether to learn copperplate first or spencerian...

[MrMGWard]

Count me in!!!

 

I have been meaning to jump in on this thread for quite some time now. I have fairly neat writing, and try to write exclusively with flex nib pens. BUT I have always wanted to go through the proper steps to fix some bad habits, and acquire a truly beautiful hand.

 

My "tools"

- Oblique holder I got from Michael Sull at the 2012 LA Pen show

- McCaffery's Penman's Black Ink

- HP 32lb Premium Choice Laser White Paper

- "New Spencerian Compendium" by the Spencer Brothers

 

Main focus right now is doing everything "by the book" instead of the way I am used to doing it. It's frustrating (not in a bad way though, it's really inspiring me to get this right) to know that I could easily create a more visually appealing version of these tests if I held the pen my "regular" way. I have never before used the "gliding on the finger nails" technique, and can see that I need a LOT more work controlling my up and down strokes.

 

Anyways, here is a photo of Day 1

Looking forward to sharing my experiences with everyone here.

 

 

Swavey

[Mickey]

Excellent attitude and approach, Michael. Most worthwhile change requires dedication verging on stubbornness.

 

Let me throw in a piece of advice I posted in another thread.

 

"On a more general note, I believe there is an over-emphasis on shades, with little attention to their polar opposite, hairlines. This is unfortunate, because real penmanship, I believe, is more surely gained pursuing hairlines than shades. Any ham-fisted fool can mash a pen point into the page. It takes real practice and a light hand to produce beautiful hairlines. (Master penman Del Tysdal claims he's worn out 3 kitchen tables pursuing his art. I've barely scratched the surface of one, so far.)"

 

My projects for this morning is learning not to shade the right side of the letter s accidentally and making starting hairlines nearly as fine as my best exit strokes. (Many reams before we rest...)

[MrMGWard]

I know I'm coming late to this thread, and there was a lot of talk about incorrect guide sheets earlier. I'm a weirdo when it come so making all my stuff look nice and clean, for archiving purposes, so I made my own. These were modeled (literally traced and multiplied) off the samples used in "New Standard Practical Penmanship" with an added place for your name and date. I decided to split the page in two to add some structure, and made the guides themselves very faint, to not distract from the writing. I do not have a protractor to test the angle, but since they were copied directly from a Spencer Brothers book, if it's wrong, I don't want to be right

 

I have uploaded a .PDF of the guide in 3mm here: Spencerian Guides 3mm

 

If there is need for a different size, please let me know and I can make a new one

 

Swavey

Edited September 21, 2012 by Swavey

[Mickey]

The confusion, if I remember correctly, arose because someone was trying to use copperplate guides (55 degrees). Eventually, the earth opened up and swallowed him.

 

Your guide sheet looks close enough for government work, but, while 52 degrees is the prescribed slant angle, the number is not quite holy writ or revealed truth. Possibly the greatest penman in this tradition, Louis Madarasz, often wrote at flatter angles, closer to 48. Of course, genius does pretty much what it wants.

 

http://www.iampeth.com/artwork/Madarasz_study_as_much.jpg

[wallylynn]

I know I'm coming late to this thread, and there was a lot of talk about incorrect guide sheets earlier. I'm a weirdo when it come so making all my stuff look nice and clean, for archiving purposes, so I made my own. These were modeled (literally traced and multiplied) off the samples used in "New Standard Practical Penmanship" with an added place for your name and date. I decided to split the page in two to add some structure, and made the guides themselves very faint, to not distract from the writing. I do not have a protractor to test the angle, but since they were copied directly from a Spencer Brothers book, if it's wrong, I don't want to be right

 

I have uploaded a .PDF of the guide in 3mm here: Spencerian Guides 3mm

 

If there is need for a different size, please let me know and I can make a new one

 

Swavey

I just printed out your guide sheet. What did you trace it from, more specifically? It doesn't feel right; too narrow. For 5 "spaces", I'm measuring 13mm horizontally, and 16mm vertically. (I tried to print without resizing but that shouldn't matter)

 

I'm comparing to http://www.iampeth.com/books/practical_penmanship/new_standard_page1.html, and for example the "d" is 15mm x 15mm on my monitor.

[wallylynn]

I suppose I'm getting better for me to be able to notice that slight difference in the guide sheet compared to my practice.

 

I've been trying to incorporate the handful of letters I know into my regular writing and it's so hard. During practice, I'm counting strokes: up, down, up, down... and it looks halfway decent. But writing, I'm just thinking of the words, barely spelling the letters and my hand+arm are moving on their own, resulting in my usual script. It's difficult for me to imagine anyone writing at speed with such deliberate strokes.

[thang1thang2]

I suppose I'm getting better for me to be able to notice that slight difference in the guide sheet compared to my practice.

 

I've been trying to incorporate the handful of letters I know into my regular writing and it's so hard. During practice, I'm counting strokes: up, down, up, down... and it looks halfway decent. But writing, I'm just thinking of the words, barely spelling the letters and my hand+arm are moving on their own, resulting in my usual script. It's difficult for me to imagine anyone writing at speed with such deliberate strokes.

 

Muscle memory is a wonderful thing, eventually you will find yourself making the proper deliberate strokes (or at least close approximations) at speed and a legible Spencerian can be written at normal handwriting speed even though true beautiful spencerian is probably written at about a quarter handwritten speed with the capital letters being artfully drawn.

[hlyuqi]

I suppose I'm getting better for me to be able to notice that slight difference in the guide sheet compared to my practice.

 

I've been trying to incorporate the handful of letters I know into my regular writing and it's so hard. During practice, I'm counting strokes: up, down, up, down... and it looks halfway decent. But writing, I'm just thinking of the words, barely spelling the letters and my hand+arm are moving on their own, resulting in my usual script. It's difficult for me to imagine anyone writing at speed with such deliberate strokes.

 

Muscle memory is a wonderful thing, eventually you will find yourself making the proper deliberate strokes (or at least close approximations) at speed and a legible Spencerian can be written at normal handwriting speed even though true beautiful spencerian is probably written at about a quarter handwritten speed with the capital letters being artfully drawn.

 

I just want to point out one thing, that the true beautiful spencerian can't be anything drawn but should be executed at a relatively high rate, at least it is true for the Uppercase letters. The "drawn" Capitals will no doubt be trembling ones.

[Brew]

Seriously struggling at the moment, I can't seem to write anything "fine" that looks half decent. At any sort of speed - and its very dlow, my slant angle, spacing, and letter size all vary and it looks a mess. A t slow speeds I get shade in down strokes so my hand looks less like Spencerian! I think the term frustrated would be precise.

I'm thinking that switching to Copperplate might be better for me. Takin my time and drawing the letters seems to give me control and consistency.

Is that defeatist?

[Mickey]

Possibly the most frustrating thing about Spencerian is that it is more difficult to fake than Copperplate or Italic. Good hairlines are important for good Copperplate; they're absolutely crucial for Spencerian, even mediocre Spencerian, and there's almost no way you will ever make hairline down strokes without practicing the various pen control exercises DILIGENTLY.

 

It might help to remember that the copy book exercises are for learning letter forms, not pen control. Pen technique is what the circles, ellipses, spirals, and such are about. Incremental progress should be expected on the copy book passage, but control of line weight (hairline and shade) seems to come as epiphanies. One day you can't make a decent spiral and the next day you wonder how you ever couldn't.

 

I've been at it (learning Spencerian) for that last half year or so and monoline Spencerian has been my daily handwriting almost that long, but it has only been in the last few weeks, however, that the control necessary for ornamental penmanship has started to appear.

 

The best piece of advice I can offer is to start your Spencerian studies with fairly stiff nibs like the Nikko or Zebra G, Gillott 404, and Hunt 56, and stay away from the more flexible nibs (Gillott 303, Hunt 99, 101, Leonhardt Principal, Brause Rose, etc.) until you develop enough technique to wield them reliably in the basic pen movement drills. Keep a couple of real flexies in the back of your drawer and pull one out every couple of weeks to see if your hand is getting light, quick, and smooth enough to wield it sensibly. When you start to suspect that it is or is getting close, start drawing ellipses, etc.: a ream of paper, both sides, is probably a good start.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Mickey

[thang1thang2]

I just want to point out one thing, that the true beautiful spencerian can't be anything drawn but should be executed at a relatively high rate, at least it is true for the Uppercase letters. The "drawn" Capitals will no doubt be trembling ones.

 

I wasn't sure how fast one would write Spencerian, so I erred on the side of slow as I could never imagine being able to write so consistently so fast. I guess true Spencerian will be a task of the ages for me then, as it will take several years to develop a speed to mine that makes it look authentic. Ah, I shall master my Copperplate first before attempting it, as to get better with the pen and nibs. Thank you for the clarification, hlyuqi, it's much appreciated.

[Mickey]

I just want to point out one thing, that the true beautiful spencerian can't be anything drawn but should be executed at a relatively high rate, at least it is true for the Uppercase letters. The "drawn" Capitals will no doubt be trembling ones.

 

I wasn't sure how fast one would write Spencerian, so I erred on the side of slow as I could never imagine being able to write so consistently so fast. I guess true Spencerian will be a task of the ages for me then, as it will take several years to develop a speed to mine that makes it look authentic. Ah, I shall master my Copperplate first before attempting it, as to get better with the pen and nibs. Thank you for the clarification, hlyuqi, it's much appreciated.

 

I'm still not sure you quite understand and may have confused Spencerian, the practical hand, with Spencerian ornamental penmanship. Spencerian was developed to be written, not drawn, and to be learned relatively quickly. Developing the skill to do quality ornamental penmanship is a 'task of the ages,' but then, so is learning to do first rate Copperplate. One cannot really be mastered more quickly than the other.

 

Here's the tradeoff, as I see it. Learning Spencerian (before diving into Ornamental Penmanship) can have a profound effect on the quality of your day to day hand writing. (A lot of home schoolers are using the old Spencer copy books to teach cursive handwriting to their children.) OP is then built on top of a Spencerian foundation. For someone looking to improve their handwriting, learning Spencerian (or Italic) is probably the superior route. If you're looking for something to put on Xmas cards envelopes, but never really gain command of the hand, Copperplate is probably the easier route. Copperplate is easier to fake, but, in truth, it's just as difficult to master.

 

As for how long it takes to develop the pen velocity needed to begin creating convincing Spencerian OP, think weeks, not years. Just be prepared to pay your dues learning to grip and move the pen properly and doing the dog-dull pen movement exercises before jumping into copy book materials.

[MrMGWard]

I just printed out your guide sheet. What did you trace it from, more specifically? It doesn't feel right; too narrow. For 5 "spaces", I'm measuring 13mm horizontally, and 16mm vertically. (I tried to print without resizing but that shouldn't matter)

 

I'm comparing to http://www.iampeth.com/books/practical_penmanship/new_standard_page1.html, and for example the "d" is 15mm x 15mm on my monitor.

 

That is the exact page from "Spencers' New Standard Writing" that I imported into Photoshop and traced. It appears your printer is squishing horizontally 3mm resulting in an incorrect angle. My printed out sheets measure 16x16mm for 5 spaces. I will try and tweak the file so it is friendly to a wider range of print margins, but I find it strange that your printer is changing your width and not height.

 

Edit: Here is a copy of my latest practice sheet, not a huge visible improvement yet, as I am still getting used to the new techniques.

 

 

Swavey

Edited September 24, 2012 by Swavey

[thang1thang2]

This is my favorite script, it's absolutely phenomenal in its elegance and airiness. Such beauty.

 

http://imgur.com/a/SaH0U

 

Here's my humble (and awful) attempt at it. From what I see it's clear that I need to find some books with set exercises and follow them. Something like Swavey's practice sheet.

• 
  1. Slant is getting there
  2. Capitals. Haaaa... Yeah right. My version of capitals right now is looking at an ornamental capital and saying "wow I wish I could do that" and then lamely attempting to copy it. The resultant is something that probably should be outlawed from ever appearing in the wild... In the spencerian capital 'b' for example there's a really cool swell in the spine of the 'b' that I can't replicate no matter how hard I try. You have to twist your arm in some sort of black magic ritual or something. I dunno... Verdict, my capitals suck.
  3. I have a habit of, when writing, to make my 'e's look too much like my i's. The lower part of my d's resemble e's sometimes and my c's look too much like e's if I add a lip to them and too much like i's if I don't. I need to slow down a bit more and concentrate on them to get the muscle memory down so I stop doing that.
  4. I can never get the hang of pressing down, and then lifting up in a "flick" for the tails of the d's or t's. More black magic required here, I'm assuming.
  5. I can do flourishes like a white nerd can dance.
  6. Hopefully in about 87 years of dedicated practice, I might just hit Caliken's level of mastery in this script... Any thoughts on it?
  

x-height is 5mm and the nib is still the leonart principal ef. My new favorite nib. First two sheets are random practice junk to get warmed up.

Edited November 17, 2012 by thang1thang2