Parker Penman Sapphire Ink...

[xiewadu]

Mine came today, after six days.

I ordered four packs, and was sent six.

 

- Jen

[Iranna]

I don't want to spoil it for anyone, but I don't think these can possibly be genuine. I got my lot of 48 today.

 

-The form of the cartridge is different from the known Penman form; why would Parker have changed the form at the last minute before ending production? None of us seems to have seen this form before. It just looks cheaper in my opinion.

-These don't have any packaging other than the cello envelope, which to me looks like it came like that from the factory

-The seller doesn't claim these to be "Parker Penman Sapphire", rather they are "Gold lable" (lable...)

-The seller has more than 10 packs of 100 carts available, with 48 sold.

 

From what I understand, an ink is extremely hard to copy. But is it possible? That's what I'm wondering. Even that cromatography doesn't convince me! And to be totally honest, the HK one looks ever so slightly different from the Greece one. Hmm...

[SamCapote]

  On 10/13/2011 at 4:09 PM, Iranna said:

I don't want to spoil it for anyone, but I don't think these can possibly be genuine. I got my lot of 48 today.

 

-The form of the cartridge is different from the known Penman form; why would Parker have changed the form at the last minute before ending production? None of us seems to have seen this form before. It just looks cheaper in my opinion.

-These don't have any packaging other than the cello envelope, which to me looks like it came like that from the factory

-The seller doesn't claim these to be "Parker Penman Sapphire", rather they are "Gold lable" (lable...)

-The seller has more than 10 packs of 100 carts available, with 48 sold.

 

From what I understand, an ink is extremely hard to copy. But is it possible? That's what I'm wondering. Even that cromatography doesn't convince me! And to be totally honest, the HK one looks ever so slightly different from the Greece one. Hmm...

 

I could take detailed photos of all this, but I really don't think it is necessary.

 

I shared all of your concerns in my earlier post above. However, I would go so far now as to say I am 100% sure. The slight differences between the two chromatography strips was the amount transferred from the syringe to the coffee filter paper was not identical in quantity. In person, I am certain their profiles are the same. I have done chromatography on at least 100 different inks, and differences are relatively obvious to see. I'll tell you a couple other reasons why I am certain.

 

Every single measurement other than the bottom is identical to the Greek supplied stock that arrived in boxes. The gradual taper, the indentation below the gold lettering, even the inside cone cup at the bottom is the same in both. The only structural difference is the cross support, which makes logical sense as an improvement to give more even support to prevent the sides in the Greek model from being pressed in.

 

The blue puncture cap is identical in size, shape, internal indented recess, color and appearance of plastic.

 

The gold printing color matches identically, with two printed sides exactly opposite. The cartridge model number at the top of the HK model says "5A" or "5B" while the Greek ones say "3FA" or "3GA" but both model numbers are in the same exact location only on the side above the word "Sapphire" They imply there were different cartridge versions, and perhaps date codes. It also makes sense that 5 may represent a more recent year code (? 2005 vs. 2003 ?) correlating with more ink content. I'm not exactly sure when they stopped making it.

 

Like all the other countries, it would make sense that Parker farmed out the factory production to an Asian country with cheaper labor in later years--leading to that factory having left over stock, and perhaps it was put in printed cartons elsewhere. It also makes sense if you are dumping extra stock on Ebay with free shipping, to toss the cartons to save weight.

 

If I was cloning these cartridges, trying to bring them back out into the market, I would NOT release them out as 67% full, as most buyers not understanding about evaporation over time would feel ripped off. Do you know what a hassle a series of Ebay claim disputes can cause to an otherwise reputable seller with almost 10,000 positive ratings, and selling 2800 various items in his store?

 

There is the same waxy/powdery faint coating on both, that likely helped them zip through the automated production equipment. It wipes off the same easy way with both, and feels the same on your fingers.

 

They have the same color on several papers, and performance in pens.

 

They smell the same. Yes, I'm ashamed enough to admit routinely smelling ink as another way of evaluating it.

 

One of the most convincing details is if you hold up both cartridges and look through against a backlight, and slowly rotate, you will see 4 sets of double plastic thin channels that I'm guessing was a Parker development to improve ink transfer down to the feed. Those 4 sets of plastic channel lines are aligned identically between the two cartridge sources. These lines are not something a Chinese clone would bother with.

 

This HK seller was originally selling 100 of these for $25.80 which is 26 cents per cartridge. If you look at the remaining Ebony cartridges that our previous Greek seller, kphil75 is selling 60 x 2 (120 total) for $35 that works out to 29 cents each...and as I recall, the Sapphire went for a bit higher price than that. If China is going to clone it, it would be a lot more cost effective to do bottles.

 

There's not a big enough market for these remaining PPS scraps, as only a limited number of afficionados here at FPN are even going to know about this ink. Fewer still are going to want to put dehydrated ink in their pens, so it then adds an additional burden of sucking out the ink with a syringe to rehydrate properly. Only a select few of us are that crazy and obsessive over this ink.

 

Even if they eventually sell 10,000 of these at 29 cents each (including postage), that is a grand total of $2,900.00 which is not even enough to get started on a cloning setup.

Edited October 14, 2011 by SamCapote

[Iranna]

  On 10/14/2011 at 7:57 AM, SamCapote said:

  On 10/13/2011 at 4:09 PM, Iranna said:

I don't want to spoil it for anyone, but I don't think these can possibly be genuine. I got my lot of 48 today.

 

-The form of the cartridge is different from the known Penman form; why would Parker have changed the form at the last minute before ending production? None of us seems to have seen this form before. It just looks cheaper in my opinion.

-These don't have any packaging other than the cello envelope, which to me looks like it came like that from the factory

-The seller doesn't claim these to be "Parker Penman Sapphire", rather they are "Gold lable" (lable...)

-The seller has more than 10 packs of 100 carts available, with 48 sold.

 

From what I understand, an ink is extremely hard to copy. But is it possible? That's what I'm wondering. Even that cromatography doesn't convince me! And to be totally honest, the HK one looks ever so slightly different from the Greece one. Hmm...

 

I could take detailed photos of all this, but I really don't think it is necessary.

 

I shared all of your concerns in my earlier post above. However, I would go so far now as to say I am 100% sure. The slight differences between the two chromatography strips was the amount transferred from the syringe to the coffee filter paper was not identical in quantity. In person, I am certain their profiles are the same. I have done chromatography on at least 100 different inks, and differences are relatively obvious to see. I'll tell you a couple other reasons why I am certain.

 

Every single measurement other than the bottom is identical to the Greek supplied stock that arrived in boxes. The gradual taper, the indentation below the gold lettering, even the inside cone cup at the bottom is the same in both. The only structural difference is the cross support, which makes logical sense as an improvement to give more even support to prevent the sides in the Greek model from being pressed in.

 

The blue puncture cap is identical in size, shape, internal indented recess, color and appearance of plastic.

 

The gold printing color matches identically, with two printed sides exactly opposite. The cartridge model number at the top of the HK model says "5A" or "5B" while the Greek ones say "3FA" or "3GA" but both model numbers are in the same exact location only on the side above the word "Sapphire" They imply there were different cartridge versions, and perhaps date codes. It also makes sense that 5 may represent a more recent year code (? 2005 vs. 2003 ?) correlating with more ink content. I'm not exactly sure when they stopped making it.

 

Like all the other countries, it would make sense that Parker farmed out the factory production to an Asian country with cheaper labor in later years--leading to that factory having left over stock, and perhaps it was put in printed cartons elsewhere. It also makes sense if you are dumping extra stock on Ebay with free shipping, to toss the cartons to save weight.

 

If I was cloning these cartridges, trying to bring them back out into the market, I would release them out as 67% full, as most buyers not understanding about evaporation over time would feel ripped off. Do you know what a hassle a series of Ebay claim disputes can cause to an otherwise reputable seller with almost 10,000 positive ratings, and selling 2800 various items in his store?

 

There is the same waxy/powdery faint coating on both, that likely helped them zip through the automated production equipment. It wipes off the same easy way with both, and feels the same on your fingers.

 

They have the same color on several papers, and performance in pens.

 

They smell the same. Yes, I'm ashamed enough to admit routinely smelling ink as another way of evaluating it.

 

One of the most convincing details is if you hold up both cartridges and look through against a backlight, and slowly rotate, you will see 4 sets of double plastic thin channels that I'm guessing was a Parker development to improve ink transfer down to the feed. Those 4 sets of plastic channel lines are aligned identically between the two cartridge sources. These lines are not something a Chinese clone would bother with.

 

This HK seller was originally selling 100 of these for $25.80 which is 26 cents per cartridge. If you look at the remaining Ebony cartridges that our previous Greek seller, kphil75 is selling 60 x 2 (120 total) for $35 that works out to 29 cents each...and as I recall, the Sapphire went for a bit higher price than that. If China is going to clone it, it would be a lot more cost effective to do bottles.

 

There's not a big enough market for these remaining PPS scraps, as only a limited number of afficionados here at FPN are even going to know about this ink. Even if they eventually sell 10,000 of these at 29 cents each (including postage), that is a grand total of $2,900.00 which is not even enough to get started on a cloning setup.

 

Well, that's a very detailed description. Thanks. Real or not, I still enjoy the ink.

[SamCapote]

  On 10/14/2011 at 8:55 AM, Iranna said:

Well, that's a very detailed description. Thanks. Real or not, I still enjoy the ink.

 

Iranna, I applaud your skepticism. You can see from my posts that I was 10 times more doubtful. I'll let you know if HK seller answers some questions I sent.

[Alohamora]

  On 10/13/2011 at 4:09 PM, Iranna said:

I don't want to spoil it for anyone, but I don't think these can possibly be genuine. I got my lot of 48 today.

 

-The form of the cartridge is different from the known Penman form; why would Parker have changed the form at the last minute before ending production? None of us seems to have seen this form before. It just looks cheaper in my opinion.

-These don't have any packaging other than the cello envelope, which to me looks like it came like that from the factory

-The seller doesn't claim these to be "Parker Penman Sapphire", rather they are "Gold lable" (lable...)

-The seller has more than 10 packs of 100 carts available, with 48 sold.

 

From what I understand, an ink is extremely hard to copy. But is it possible? That's what I'm wondering. Even that cromatography doesn't convince me! And to be totally honest, the HK one looks ever so slightly different from the Greece one. Hmm...

 

I think the "Hong Kong" cartridge is better made compared to the "Greek" cartridge. The ribs inside the cartridge extend all the way into the tail section, allowing ink to flow out of that tail more easily, instead of getting stuck there. Second, the cross on the bottom of the cartridge prevents that end from getting splayed out when it's inserted in a pen under pressure (to pierce the nipple section).

 

Less evaporation, later date code (if Sam's theory is correct) and improved cartridge all add up to later production.

 

OTOH, I specifically asked the seller weeks ago if these were Parker Penman Sapphire and I never got an answer.

 

The cartridges still say "FRANCE", I don't think Parker would mis-label country of origin. How did they end up in Hong Kong?

 

 

To me, this is all just fun speculation, the way it writes, I think it's really PPS. If someone knows how to clone PPS this well, they should bottle and sell it under a new name, they'd have a very popular product.

[Alohamora]

  On 10/10/2011 at 8:06 PM, Astrea said:

Thanks for this post, I've always wanted to try this ink and just got myself 15 cartridges.

 

Just wondering how to use the ink- can I add water directly to the cartridge and insert it into a pen, or do I have to do the mixing in another jar?

 

 

Yes, as I mentioned before, it's quite possible to add water directly to the cartridge with pipette or syringe. The cartridges fit Parker or Lamy cartridge pens.

 

[current Quink cartridges don't fit Lamys as well as these Penman ones do. The Quink ones tend to get stuck in the bottom of the Lamy pen barrel].

[SamCapote]

  On 10/15/2011 at 2:31 AM, Alohamora said:

 

I think the "Hong Kong" cartridge is better made compared to the "Greek" cartridge. The ribs inside the cartridge extend all the way into the tail section, allowing ink to flow out of that tail more easily, instead of getting stuck there. Second, the cross on the bottom of the cartridge prevents that end from getting splayed out when it's inserted in a pen under pressure (to pierce the nipple section).

 

I didn't even notice that those inside "flow enhancing" plastic ribbing lines were added to the bottom, but now that you point that out, no question it is an intentional product enhancement. I did however notice their effect of how the ink in these new HK cartridges slides right down when drawing out ink with syringe, where the Greek ones I had to flick the end to get it to migrate. I had thought the "stuck ink" was mainly related to the dehydrated state of the Greek ones, but you add even more convincing evidence of this being another intentional product improvement...and entailing more expense of design and retooling for the new cartridge features.

[Iranna]

  On 10/15/2011 at 2:31 AM, Alohamora said:

  On 10/13/2011 at 4:09 PM, Iranna said:

I don't want to spoil it for anyone, but I don't think these can possibly be genuine. I got my lot of 48 today.

 

-The form of the cartridge is different from the known Penman form; why would Parker have changed the form at the last minute before ending production? None of us seems to have seen this form before. It just looks cheaper in my opinion.

-These don't have any packaging other than the cello envelope, which to me looks like it came like that from the factory

-The seller doesn't claim these to be "Parker Penman Sapphire", rather they are "Gold lable" (lable...)

-The seller has more than 10 packs of 100 carts available, with 48 sold.

 

From what I understand, an ink is extremely hard to copy. But is it possible? That's what I'm wondering. Even that cromatography doesn't convince me! And to be totally honest, the HK one looks ever so slightly different from the Greece one. Hmm...

 

I think the "Hong Kong" cartridge is better made compared to the "Greek" cartridge. The ribs inside the cartridge extend all the way into the tail section, allowing ink to flow out of that tail more easily, instead of getting stuck there. Second, the cross on the bottom of the cartridge prevents that end from getting splayed out when it's inserted in a pen under pressure (to pierce the nipple section).

 

Less evaporation, later date code (if Sam's theory is correct) and improved cartridge all add up to later production.

 

OTOH, I specifically asked the seller weeks ago if these were Parker Penman Sapphire and I never got an answer.

 

The cartridges still say "FRANCE", I don't think Parker would mis-label country of origin. How did they end up in Hong Kong?

 

 

To me, this is all just fun speculation, the way it writes, I think it's really PPS. If someone knows how to clone PPS this well, they should bottle and sell it under a new name, they'd have a very popular product.

 

Yes, exactly, a fun speculation. The ink itself is wonderful, and I don't think it would spoil the pleasure even if we found out it was fake. But since the seller in Hong Kong refuses to comment, I don't think we'll ever know.

 

Oh, and I didn't compare these cartridges to the ones from Greece, but to ones I bought when this ink was still available. Of course 'cheap' is a relative concept.

[dcwaites]

Like several others on the FPN, I ordered one of the packs of 100 NOS Parker Penman Sapphire cartridges from Pokydaddy on eBay. They arrived after a week. Incidentally, I got 13 packets of 8 cartridges, so 104 in total. No complaints there.

 

Each cartridge contains about 0.9ml of ink, and has lost about 0.3 ml, or 25%. So, un-reconstituted, I got 100 mls of classic Parker Penman Sapphire for AU$27. If I reconstituted it all, I will have bought over two bottles of PPS for less than AU$14 each. This compares more than favourably with the retail price of Private Reserve and Diamine inks in Sydney.

 

I experimented a bit with the correct amount of water to use for reconstitution. Using the ink as it is gives you an ink that is too thick and too dark, and it doesn't shade. I experimented with adding 15% and 30% water, and think that somewhere between 20% and 30% is about right, depending on your pen.

 

I have used it in four pens, so far. a Parker Frontier, a Parker Sonnet, a TWSBI 530 and my new Jinhao Century (currently under review). It has behaved flawlessly in all of them, with the Sonnet giving the best result (after all, this pen was built for this ink, flakey inner cap notwithstanding). The Sonnet gives great shading on Rhodia paper. The Frontier is a bit bleaghh, but TWSBI and the Jinhao both give good results with this ink.

 

I do think this is genuine, and even if it isn't (although SamCapote's discussion seems to put paid to that), it is a spot-on replica of Parker Penman Sapphire, which no-one else has been able to do (although PR American and DC Supershow blues are very close).

 

I looked on eBay today, and Pokydaddy now has lots of 100, 50 and 20 cartridges up.

[PJohnP]

  On 10/15/2011 at 9:00 AM, dcwaites said:

...I do think this is genuine, and even if it isn't (although SamCapote's discussion seems to put paid to that), it is a spot-on replica of Parker Penman Sapphire, which no-one else has been able to do (although PR American and DC Supershow blues are very close).

 

I looked on eBay today, and Pokydaddy now has lots of 100, 50 and 20 cartridges up.

 

There are several pieces to the discussion here on this ink, but it's important to note that the seller hasn't once listed the ink as "Penman Sapphire" on eBay. It's instead been listed as "Gold lable" (sic) and "Blue". I find the idea that someone is running a counterfeit scam on these cartridges - aimed at fountain pen users who obsess on inks, no less ! - a bit OTT given their approach. Had they trumpeted the ink as "the great loved but sadly discontinued Parker Penman Sapphire fountain pen ink", there might be some (small) traction in this concept.

 

As for the quantities being sold, this is in total not more than one or two cases of quantity packed cartridges, not a giant wholesale revival of the ink by the carboy volume, decanted by the liter and quart for distribution. Alas and alack for that, as a "re-creation" of the ink would indeed sell by those volumes !

 

Speaking of which, as noted by Sam, this is actually a reasonably competitive price on the ink, working out to the equivalent of about ~US$13 per 50mm bottle. Even allowing for the (slight) annoyance of decanting the ink, how is the pricing on this ink in any way unfair ?

 

Given the incredible closeness of the colour, the lack of discernable issues with the ink, and the simple fact that these are not getting sold in the quantity necessary for a fake to be counterfeited, it's unlikely to be other than the Parker product.

 

Then, as several have noted, the ink, regardless of the provenance, is thoroughly delightful. Maybe we can just use it and enjoy it. :hmm1:

 

 

 

 

John P.

[dcwaites]

[ugly]

IMO those are genuine Parker Penman Sapphire.

I've got some and I can easily see they are a high quality production.

Even the inscription on it is perfect ( under a 15x magnifying loupe ).

No way a counterfeit product will go that far.

 

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8393/dsc0542g.jpg

 

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/1677/dsc0540e.jpg

[SamCapote]

The one message I did get returned by the seller who signed it as "Stella" when I pointed out that her listing this as gold label blue, that she should label it as Parker Penman Sapphire. She thanked me and said she will change it so Sapphire. If you look at the huge amount of refill products, I'm not at all sure that Stella even knows what PPS is for sure, and has no other colors listed. Every few days I send another message asking:

 

 

Dear pokydady/Stella,

 

Can you please help us settle an ongoing dispute we are having at Fountain Pen Network Forum over your Parker Penman Sapphire ink which a number of us have promoted, and believe is genuine?

 

Because it is being sold out of Hong Kong, people have a "default bias" that it is a Chinese counterfeit. I know that is unfair, so please don't hear this as a threat, as I do believe this is genuine Parker Sapphire Blue.

 

Your answers would help to clear up any questions regarding your reputation and certainly lead to even more sales for you.

 

1) Can you PLEASE say how many cartridges of you got (including already sold) to sell in bulk? Part of the doubt is the never-ending supply you seem to have.

 

2) Can you say where it came from, and why it is not in the little 5 pack cartons (& 12 cartons in a box) like many of us bought from Ebay seller kphil75 earlier this year who lives in Greece?

 

3) Do you have other colors of this Parker Penman (gold printing) Ink for fountain pens?

 

Thanks

 

It is a testimonial to the power of PPS that all of us would go through all this hassle to psychoanalyze the seller. LOL! I don't even need any of these cartridges with all the PPS bottles I have, but here I am doing all this buying, checking samples, and sending her messages

Edited October 16, 2011 by SamCapote

[PJohnP]

  On 10/16/2011 at 11:44 AM, SamCapote said:

It is a testimonial to the power of PPS that all of us would go through all this hassle to psychoanalyze the seller. LOL!

 

Chuckle. Yes, quite an amazing commentary on so many of us. As I noted in an earlier post, perhaps it's time to just use the ink and enjoy it. I find that I like to put an otherwise recently untouched ink in a pen from time to time, just to see what it's like once again, almost like a date with an old friend.

 

I ordered some more PPS, but not as a hoarding exercise. I'm planning to send out some cartridges to friends so that they too can enjoy some of this ink. So many people have heard about PPS, talked about it, but never had the opportunity to play with this delightful colour. The cartridges are an excellent mechanism for shipping the ink to other people, no decanting from a bottle by me into vials is needed !

 

 

 

 

John P.

 

 

P.S. Thanks for the follow-up on this Sam, as it might well yield some other Penman hues, something else to be enjoyed and savoured.

[WOBentley]

I am so convinced it is legit (or if not...and I doubt that based on evidence presented...at least such a good copy) I just bought another 100, between that and the Greek purchase I should be set for quite a while...(equivalent to about 6 bottles)

Thanks to all for the notice and the discussion!

I am thrilled with my purchase.

[SamCapote]

I wonder how long Stella can ignore my Ebay messages.

[stuartk]

  On 10/14/2011 at 7:57 AM, SamCapote said:

 

One of the most convincing details is if you hold up both cartridges and look through against a backlight, and slowly rotate, you will see 4 sets of double plastic thin channels that I'm guessing was a Parker development to improve ink transfer down to the feed. Those 4 sets of plastic channel lines are aligned identically between the two cartridge sources. These lines are not something a Chinese clone would bother with.

 

I have seen those same lines in older Parker Quink cartridges, from at least the late '60s and through the early '80s, which is the last time I bought Parker in in cartridges.

 

I agree that a clone probably wouldn't include details like this.

[stuartk]

  On 10/15/2011 at 2:31 AM, Alohamora said:

 

I think the "Hong Kong" cartridge is better made compared to the "Greek" cartridge. The ribs inside the cartridge extend all the way into the tail section, allowing ink to flow out of that tail more easily, instead of getting stuck there. Second, the cross on the bottom of the cartridge prevents that end from getting splayed out when it's inserted in a pen under pressure (to pierce the nipple section).

 

The earlier Parker Quink carts that I used in school had a "tap tank" and those lines stopped short of it. The idea was that you had a reserve ink supply after the main part of the cartridge ran out. You tapped or flicked the end of the cartridge with your finger and the ink ran out into the main chamber and thence to the feed, so you could get maybe another 1/2 a page out of it before having to replace the cartridge with a new one.

[SamCapote]

  On 10/17/2011 at 7:05 PM, stuartk said:

  On 10/15/2011 at 2:31 AM, Alohamora said:

I think the "Hong Kong" cartridge is better made compared to the "Greek" cartridge. The ribs inside the cartridge extend all the way into the tail section, allowing ink to flow out of that tail more easily, instead of getting stuck there. Second, the cross on the bottom of the cartridge prevents that end from getting splayed out when it's inserted in a pen under pressure (to pierce the nipple section).

 

The earlier Parker Quink carts that I used in school had a "tap tank" and those lines stopped short of it. The idea was that you had a reserve ink supply after the main part of the cartridge ran out. You tapped or flicked the end of the cartridge with your finger and the ink ran out into the main chamber and thence to the feed, so you could get maybe another 1/2 a page out of it before having to replace the cartridge with a new one.

 

Good to know that they had an intentional design for the back part of the cartridge not having the flow enhancing lines. I think it is a better design to have them go all the way to the back. If you run out, you replace/refill.

 

Now, I did finally today hear from EBay seller who signs as "Stella" Here was [her] message:

Hi friend,

 

Thanks for your enquiry.

 

We get all of the catridges in Hong Kong and they are original, not "default bias" or Chinese counterfeit.

 

There are only around 7000 of them in our stock, we sold around 500 everyday.

 

And the supplier told us that these cartridges have no boxes because all of these are got from the pen (The cartridge that with the pen, not for individual sell)

 

WE are sorry for the late reply, because our office was closed on Sat and Sun.

 

Best regards,

Stella

 

-pokydady