Copperplate With A Fountain Pen

[ihtzazqamar]

Salman,

 

I have three flexible-nibbed fountain pens.

 

1) A Vintage Waterman's 92 made in the USA and fitted with an 'Ideal' nib. Very wet and flexible with good snap-back but not quite fine enough for fine hairlines. It's probably a 'wet noodle', but I've never been entirely sure what that means.

 

2) A Namiki Falcon with a flexible SF nib. This is a nice pen, but shaded strokes require too much pressure which, inevitably, leads to lack of control.

 

3) A Pelikan M250 with a normal, medium nib which has been modified by Richard Binder. This is the best of the three. I sent him this letter which he has placed in his Gallery on his web site. Being a Pelikan, it's entirely reliable, with sufficient, easy flex for modestly-shaded Copperplate. However, it's a little bit stiff for the heavily-shaded strokes of Spencerian.

 

Someday, I'd like to try a Noodlers flex pen. I've read a couple of reviews and it sounds as though it writes a bit like my Falcon but with less reliability - but at a fraction of the price!

 

Ken

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/LettertoRBinder400.jpg

 

Just beautiful, Ken. I have just ordered mine from Richard Binder and will be shipped on Saturday.

Ihtzaz

[Mauricio]

Ken,

 

Enclosed are some writing samples made with three different vintage Waterman wet noodle nibs with great snap back. Please note that I am not very proficient at writing with extremely thin and soft nibs, my hand leans towards a heavier writing hand, and I am not proficient with Copperplate writing either. Unlike the typical vintage flexy Waterman nibs, wet noodIe nibs are very hard to find, especially those capable of producing hairlines, in good condition, and smooth writers like the ones below ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder what those nibs would do in the hands of someone like you. Let me know what you think of them. I would like to ship your way one or two pens fitted with nibs like the ones above so you can write and play with them. When you are done you just pay for return postage.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Mauricio

[caliken]

I would like to ship your way one or two pens fitted with nibs like the ones above so you can write and play with them. When you are done you just pay for return postage.

Mauricio,

 

They all look like excellent pens - it looks to me as if the Waterman's 32a is best with finest hairlines and, as you say, great snap-back.

 

I'm afraid that I have to decline your generous offer. If I found your pens to be as good as I expect they are.....you'd never get them back!

 

Seriously, I really appreciate your trust in me; thanks very much for the offer, but I'll pass for now. If they are as they seem, I'd hate to let them go!

 

Ken

Edited August 26, 2011 by caliken

[Watercycle]

from the very start i must say it looks like the first picture was printed out the letters keep such consistency!

 

honestly is it every about getting it exactly perfect? or to achieve what is appealing and can hold that very consistency?

[penpals]

Do you think a lefty would have an easier time aintaining the 55 degree angle? Just seems like an underwriter lefty would have an advantage here by not having to contort as much. Granted I only played with copperplate with dip nibs and no where close to your level.

[caliken]

Do you think a lefty would have an easier time aintaining the 55 degree angle? Just seems like an underwriter lefty would have an advantage here by not having to contort as much. Granted I only played with copperplate with dip nibs and no where close to your level.

Left handed underwriters have a natural advantage when writing Copperplate as the nib is already pointing to the slope line with a normal hand hold. The disadvantage is that the hand is moving over the wet ink, so extra care has to be take. Some lefthanders use an oblique pen but a straight one is usually fine.

 

caliken

[WestLothian]

I have been looking more closely at the writing process for generating English Round-hand, the slope as you noted is usually at 55 degrees. This slope is the diagonal on most sizes of common modern writing papers. I checked that all the A4, A5 sizes are based on a ratio of width to height (one:root-two) many of the small notebooks are 120x170mm too. The advantages of basing a paper size upon an aspect ratio of √2 were already noted in by Professor Lichtenberg in 1700s.

 

Rotating the paper anti-cockwise so that the right-hand sweeps a straight line horizontally across the page, with minimum compensation, requires that the arm is parallel to the page edges at halfway across the line. This can be a reasonable right-handed posture and it will normally result in the page-diagonal being set to be in the line-of-sight, inline with the shoulders. If this is the writing slope then it is easy to keep an eye on the consistency of parallel down-strokes.

 

Where it seems to go a bit awry is when looking at the flexible nib geometry and the pen contact to the page. If the pen is held with a very small angle to the forearm and pointing parallel to the page then the pen's maximum bold stroke will be on vertical lines drawn towards the writer. After a bit of trigonometry the down-strokes at 55 degrees will only be 18% less wide than the maximum pen width.

 

The effect of having a stronger rotation of the pen anti-clockwise relative to the forearm, and towards the body, will be to dramatically reduce the ability to produce bold down-strokes and this is when the off-set nib or pen holder will be essential to restore the angles and get the optimum shading.

 

 

P.S. I note that Willis A. Baird recommended a 10c pen oblique-holder, in his Lessons In Roundhand published in The Business Educator.

Also that one should "Use the same position at the table as in light-line writing, both as regards the arm and the paper."

"The hand may be turned farther to the right and may rest on the side; the little finger being the center of control".

 

If you read through his lessons you soon realise that his method is not really a true cursive flowing script, as he draws-in loops, dots and liaisons independently with "unnatural" directions in separate strokes. The results are wonderful calligraphy but not really a method for fountain pen handwriting.

Edited September 1, 2011 by WestLothian

[Val]

I think Salman's got the right idea.

 

If one avoids changing pen grip and using an oblique holder, the pen just can't get to the correct angle if one keeps the vertical lines perpendicular to one's chest.

It seems to me that one can improve the situaion by turning the page anti-clockwise even more by a similar amount to what an oblique pen holder grants.

 

There are a couple of downsides: the movements are in different directions from the ones practiced with an oblique holder and the wrist ends up being a lot more static.

Nonetheless, the larger problem of pen angles is solved by further rotation and both the fingers and the arm are free to move and create the necessary shapes.

My guess is that mid-size letters (where the wrist is used) would become a lot tougher, but small, finger-sized letters should be fairly doable by someone skilled at the art (/me looks at caliken).

[Mickey]

Page position relative to the body, as well as rotation, determines the orientation of the pen slit. (This is the geometry underlying the side-saddle to the desk seating which effectively extends the desk to the right. This is what I do.) For example, a page placed farther away and to the right does not need as much rotation to achieve the same nib / slant alignment.

 

Ultimately, proper page position and equipment choice (oblique or straight) devolves to satisfying a limited number of conditions. Any combination of position and equipment is acceptable if 1 the hand can smoothly traverse the writing line an acceptable number of characters without disturbing the geometric relationship of nib, page plane, and slant angle and 2 applying pressure for shades is well controlled and is (potentially) intuitive. In essence, find such a configuration and place the paper under it. (Visual considerations, which are undoubtedly important, would generally be satisfied by condition 1.)

[WestLothian]

It seems that the oblique holder is an invention of the 2Oth Century (in USA)?

The steel flexible nib is an invention of the 19th Century?

The Copperplate was first being used as an ideal form for copybooks from 17th and early 18th Century.

The most notable reference The Universal Penman (1st ed.1743) would have been for quills?

Edited September 8, 2011 by WestLothian

[Mickey]

It seems that the oblique holder is an invention of the 2Oth Century (in USA)?

 

 

The earliest patent for an oblique holder was filed in England in 1831, though the fundamental device was probably old then.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Mickey

[WestLothian]

Thanks Mickey.

They seem to be very rare in Europe now, more availability and choice in USA.

There is only one plastic model available for sale in Europe, as far as I could see.

[Chevalier]

Do you mean the oblique variation of the basic Speedball holder?

 

Seperate oblique metal flanges (used like a nib) and oblique nibs have been used in Europe, at least more than oblique holders (I don't know if oblique holders have been used at all until shortly after the new advent of pointed pen styles)

[WestLothian]

I couldn't find a UK or European supplier for the metal-flanged, oblique holder. Where would you get the separate flange?

 

The plastic Speedball holder was available and also the Mitchell oblique nib. Both of these have fixed angles and seem to be weaker solutions intuitively. I recently ordered an import holder from a USA shop discussed on this forum. Normally these import parcels get stopped at UK customs; they charge for handling and grab even more tax off you, before you can collect the item that you paid to get delivered.

[Florenze]

I couldn't find a UK or European supplier for the metal-flanged, oblique holder. Where would you get the separate flange?

 

The plastic Speedball holder was available and also the Mitchell oblique nib. Both of these have fixed angles and seem to be weaker solutions intuitively. I recently ordered an import holder from a USA shop discussed on this forum. Normally these import parcels get stopped at UK customs; they charge for handling and grab even more tax off you, before you can collect the item that you paid to get delivered.

 

I don't know if this will assist you, but there's a discussion group called "Ornamental_Penmanship" on Yahoo groups, that I've found helpful in many ways. The Mod is the IAMPETH president, and people ask all kinds of questions there, some technical, some creative. The group includes world-class calligraphers and there are a lot of instructional guides there, too. I expect there's someone who could advise you on this. The video guides are just great. I hope this will be useful to you.

[nawybot]

Hi, Ken,

 

Some very personal notes and recommendations from one who has been struggling with this issue for years and has spent thousands of dollars to find my ideal fountain pen (but I call my handwriting "Roundhand.")

 

Note 1. The skill and intentions of the person who rebuilds (an old) or modifies (a new) fountain pen is most critical to its Roundhand capability.

 

Note 2. The hairline is more important than the downstroke. It's no use having a "wet noodle" downstroke, struggling with your pen angle, or worrying about your nib's snappiness, if it produces a fat upstroke.

 

Note 3. All of the "restored" flex pens in my collection appear to me to have been made too "wet" so that their downstrokes will impress the unsophisticated buyer (which I was when I bought them. P. S.: I bought none of my restored pens from Mauricio.)

 

Recommendation 1: Try a new fountain pen that has been modified by a "nib meister" who understands the problem.

 

Recommendation 2: The best new fountain pens I have found for this purpose are Pilot-Namiki. 14K points only; 18K is unsuitable for this purpose. Pilot 14K nibs start soft and can be made extremely flexible by a good meister without losing their snap. Fantastically nice pens in general, too.

 

Recommendation 3: On the less expensive (not cheap!) side, in California, USA, Greg Minuskin regrinds the black resin Falcon to a "needlepoint" with "superflex." I own several of Greg's modifications. In this price range, Greg produces the thinnest hairline I have found, but, be warned, his nibs are really, really sharp and will snag and spray ink in all directions if you press down on the upstroke at all. You need to know your onions to use them (but you do, Ken.) Converter or cartridge. Small-average size.

 

Recommendation 4: I second Florenze's recommendation of IAMPETH's Yahoo group and web site. And for a second opinion on my Recommendation 3, read Joe Vitolo's comments on the pen he bought from Greg. (Hint: he likes it.)

 

Recommendation 5: (drumroll) And now, my ideal Roundhand fountain pen, found after all these years. (Warning: expensive!). The Pilot 823 Amber demonstrator with "Spencerian modification" by John Mottishaw (www.nibs.com). Wow! smooth, thin hairlines, and that "paintbrush" feel (when I get the rhythm right) that will support Roundhand (fast), Copperplate (slow), or Spencerian (fast) handwriting. I carry two of these pens every day, with different inks of course. Vacuum pump holds about a third of a bottle. A large pen that does not need to be posted to provide sufficient length. Excellent build quality.

 

Hope this helps.

 

-- Toby

[Mauricio]

Toby ... Great observations you have made.

 

Note 2. The hairline is more important than the downstroke. It's no use having a "wet noodle" downstroke, struggling with your pen angle, or worrying about your nib's snappiness, if it produces a fat upstroke.

-- Toby

 

When looking for a vintage flexible nib, make sure you check the line variation of the nib. Those fat strokes are made by nibs capable of line variation that goes up to a BB, BBB or BBBB line. There are very flexible and very thin nibs which line variation only goes up to a B or B/BB line, which may better suit your needs.

 

Note 3. All of the "restored" flex pens in my collection appear to me to have been made too "wet" so that their downstrokes will impress the unsophisticated buyer (which I was when I bought them. P. S.: I bought none of my restored pens from Mauricio.)

-- Toby

 

Many times, but not always, the pen/nib can be set up as a dry, normal, wet or somewhere in between. These adjustments are not easy to perform as those very flexible nibs have different ink requirements resulting from different levels of writing pressure, speed, writing directions, line variations, etc. It takes a lot of skill (and time) to properly set up one of these nibs so that you will have the ideal pre-determined ink flow and spectacular pen/nib performance during all these different demands. Different writers have different ink flow preferences, and if you specify your preference to someone who knows how to performs these pen/flexible nib setups and also knows how to write with flexible nibs, you are set for success. I have been very successful playing with my vintage pens and vintage flexible nibs. Just last week, I installed a wet noodle XXXF-BB for a pen enthusiast who mainly uses dip nibs. However, he was looking for the portability of a fountain pen to carry everywhere. The real challenge was that he only writes with ultra thin nibs, likes them extremely flexible with good snapback, capable of making thick lines as well ... but he only writes VERY FAST and does not like toothy nibs. I was up to the challenge and, luckily, had a very special 14K vintage nib (factory original nib with no retip, no added flex and no grind customization), a very dear nib and the perfect candidate for this challenge. I was successful installing that nib into his pen. I have set up hundreds of flex nib into vintage pens, but this was by far the hardest of all due to the multiple requirements, especially the fast writing of an ultra thin and ultra flex nib with no toothiness!

 

So, it is possible and it can be done. And as you said, I am certain your favorite nibmeister will gladly assist anyone with similar challenging requirements. Now there are limitations. Sometimes, certain pen/nib combinations are just incompatible for the extreme results described above. There is also the law of physics involved ... do not expect miracles!

Edited September 17, 2011 by Mauricio

[fuchsiaprincess]

Ooooh! Can I have one too please Mauricio? Pretty please!

[fuchsiaprincess]

http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y331/fuchsiaprincess/Ken.jpg

[Pietru]

Love that green ink!