Can Anyone Identify This Pen? Possibly German.

[chunya]

Hi Bo Bo,

 

Looks like our pens are twins, and apparently with the same genetic ailment!I've contacted Eric (eckiethump) to see whether he might be able to take it to repair, and just awaiting a response. I didn't actually 'buy' it, rather I swapped it for an old coin, which I may have managed to sell for £20.

 

Amazing the discussion a small pen like this (well, a relatively rather 'large pen' I suppose) can generate!

 

Many thanks all

 

Mario

[Bo Bo Olson]

20 pounds.

I'm sure some others are just as at my € 70 price. I just know mine was so much better than I expected it to be.

 

 

Actually it's a standard sized pen. I have some 50 pens, mostly vintage and most are that size.

My only four of vintage pens that are medium large are a P-51, Geha 725, Pelikan 400NN and a Reform P-125.

 

Large pens like the 800, 146, Cross Townsend being considered 'normal' is only for the youth....us old Fogies remember when standard sized pens were 'standard'.

[chunya]

20 pounds.

I'm sure some others are just as at my € 70 price. I just know mine was so much better than I expected it to be.

 

 

Actually it's a standard sized pen. I have some 50 pens, mostly vintage and most are that size.

My only four of vintage pens that are medium large are a P-51, Geha 725, Pelikan 400NN and a Reform P-125.

 

Large pens like the 800, 146, Cross Townsend being considered 'normal' is only for the youth....us old Fogies remember when standard sized pens were 'standard'.

 

Hi Bo Bo,

 

Yes, I think that I certainly came out better in that swap! But I think I can put it right. When I said 'relatively large' i was thinking of it when it is posted. I've used it a few times and I like the way it handles, but find I need to keep the cap off. I think that I'd qualify as an 'Old Fogie' ... but enough said! I've heard back from Eric, he is very busy right now, but thinks he can fix it, so I'll keep you up to date on any progress.

 

Wherever your money bush is, it's probably got mine for company!

Edited August 21, 2011 by chunya

[acies]

 

If it's a wartime pen, then it must be early wartime. Hitler didn't like Fraktur so it was used less and less. There was a "semi official ban" on Fraktur after 1940.

Hi acies

Interesting. Did you know him personally?

Thomas

 

Read it somewhere in a book about typography. At first, it sounded strange to me as one might think the Nazis would appreciate Fraktur as part of an "Ur"-German heritage. It's reported that Hitler considered fraktur to be Jewish. Another - more practical - argument against it was perhaps that it's less legible than an Antiqua.

 

Aris

[Kaweco]

Quote gobblecup:

I know it may be an assumption to say he (Mr. Hitler) didn't like fraktur, but it was no longer being used by the end of the war, I think the 'argument was that Jews invented it. BUT I don't have any available info to reference this to, and it's not all that important to me to do so. Maybe it's a big misconception, it wouldn't be the first. <shrugs>

/Quote gobblecup

Hello Gobblecup, Yes, all broken writing styles, included „Fraktur, Gothic, Schwabacher and Sütterlin style“ had been abolished by the nazi party in January 1941. This is remarkable because the Fraktur and Sütterlin were well known as the „German writing style“. The law carries the signature of Martin Bormann. The official reason actually was, that the characters should have been been invented by Jewish People. It is for sure, that this was only one of Bormanns numerous boring history falsificates.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Schrifterlass_Antiqua1941.gif

The possibly real reason for the law could be found in the last sentence: „First of all each of the German print media sold in foreign countries had to switch to the new „Normal writing style“. It was nothing but to enlarge the area of printed nazi propaganda. The „Fraktur“ style was common in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway and the germanophone parts of France and Tchechoslovakia. It was not common and difficult to read in the occupied France and the associated fascist countries Italy and in Spain.

Another economic reason was that in addition to the print media, the instruction guides for German export goods had to change the writing style, because the papers possibly couldn`t be read in foreign countries.

The „Normal writing“ was a classic „Antiqua- style“ for print characters and also a round „Latin style“ for handwriting.

I was a little bit angry about flat guesses like “hitler didn`t like the „Fraktur style“. He was surely able to write in all styles very well, he was an artist and tried to earn money with art- writing, commercial writing and drawing post- cards. hitler tried to enter the art academy in Vienna in 1907 but his entry examination failed. Too bad, the world in the following decades could have been a better place.

I also don`t like what we call ebay sellers research. Most online sellers do not know much about the history of vintage objects which they have on display. Vintage fountainpens get older more than ten years and each style of making is compared or in parts made by well known and expensive trade marks like Pelikan or MB. Unknown fountainpens were often described as unics and prototypes. A seller telling that he is for 30 years a collector buddy and seller must be one of the greatest fountainpen Nabobs or one of the greatest swindlers. Trusting the stories of online sellers without reliable sources could destroy a lot of historic research.

Kind Regards

Thomas

[Gobblecup]

Quote gobblecup:

I know it may be an assumption to say he (Mr. Hitler) didn't like fraktur, but it was no longer being used by the end of the war, I think the 'argument was that Jews invented it. BUT I don't have any available info to reference this to, and it's not all that important to me to do so. Maybe it's a big misconception, it wouldn't be the first. <shrugs>

/Quote gobblecup

Hello Gobblecup, Yes, all broken writing styles, included „Fraktur, Gothic, Schwabacher and Sütterlin style" had been abolished by the nazi party in January 1941. This is remarkable because the Fraktur and Sütterlin were well known as the „German writing style". The law carries the signature of Martin Bormann. The official reason actually was, that the characters should have been been invented by Jewish People. It is for sure, that this was only one of Bormanns numerous boring history falsificates.

http://upload.wikime...Antiqua1941.gif

The possibly real reason for the law could be found in the last sentence: „First of all each of the German print media sold in foreign countries had to switch to the new „Normal writing style". It was nothing but to enlarge the area of printed nazi propaganda. The „Fraktur" style was common in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway and the germanophone parts of France and Tchechoslovakia. It was not common and difficult to read in the occupied France and the associated fascist countries Italy and in Spain.

Another economic reason was that in addition to the print media, the instruction guides for German export goods had to change the writing style, because the papers possibly couldn`t be read in foreign countries.

The „Normal writing" was a classic „Antiqua- style" for print characters and also a round „Latin style" for handwriting.

I was a little bit angry about flat guesses like "hitler didn`t like the „Fraktur style". He was surely able to write in all styles very well, he was an artist and tried to earn money with art- writing, commercial writing and drawing post- cards. hitler tried to enter the art academy in Vienna in 1907 but his entry examination failed. Too bad, the world in the following decades could have been a better place.

I also don`t like what we call ebay sellers research. Most online sellers do not know much about the history of vintage objects which they have on display. Vintage fountainpens get older more than ten years and each style of making is compared or in parts made by well known and expensive trade marks like Pelikan or MB. Unknown fountainpens were often described as unics and prototypes. A seller telling that he is for 30 years a collector buddy and seller must be one of the greatest fountainpen Nabobs or one of the greatest swindlers. Trusting the stories of online sellers without reliable sources could destroy a lot of historic research.

Kind Regards

Thomas

 

Thanks for the kind post in response to mine, and the interesting reference document. It seems you are right, about why Fraktur and other old German styles disappeared, Franco and Mussolini were probably the ones who disliked Fraktur! I totally understand your anger at the large bits of history lost to ignorance in our day, I'm glad you posted back! It seems like everyone these days "knows" more about what Hitler liked than his own aides would have. And I also concur that history might have played out much better if the Viennese contented him with being a painter!

 

You're certainly a great help to everyone here with your special knowledge of German pen history!

Edited August 21, 2011 by Gobblecup

[Bo Bo Olson]

In Andreas Lambrou's Pen book, I've been looking at the box at the cap end...I end up with a lot of almost matches like a Faber Castell, Granvisible, Standard. None are quite a match.

 

Everyone had a flat topped pen, some had some slant to the end cap others had pens that were just tall stove pipe end caps.

For the second pen the one with the stove pipe flat top, there are many German pens of the early. MB has them, Soennecken; so the company copied 'classic' designs, MB, Soennecken and for the first chased pen, Pelikan 100.

There were some 120 pen makers, some made from scratch, many of the big boys made parts for other pen companies or stores like Osmia made pens for the Dutch Aakkerman (sp.

 

Both are well made pens. Erstklassiger....first class fountain pens...

The clip was once gold plated...or gold washed. I can see the remains underneath the clip.

 

Here is both pens.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0424.jpg

 

I have a total of five tall capped '30's German pens including a couple of Frankies, this one is the flattest with the least slope to it.

Here is the pictures of the second pen, with the matching cap ring to the box.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/BrSiKugBGkKGrHqIOKjQEuPM6rSyBLzD8mef_12.jpg

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/BrSiL-wB2kKGrHqQOKjIEuTggSioBLzD8IPKw_12-1.jpg

These pictures show only the band of the box and the second pen.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0421.jpg

 

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0422.jpg

 

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0423.jpg

 

Odd, by me it don't take much to move a pen out of the 'so what' class into...a class higher.

 

It may well be I'll take a fancy clip from a non-fitting spare cap and give the pen a bit of fancy more.

Is that immoral? Not when done with true no name pens.

[Kaweco]

.............

 

Odd, by me it don't take much to move a pen out of the 'so what' class into...a class higher.

 

It may well be I'll take a fancy clip from a non-fitting spare cap and give the pen a bit of fancy more.

Is that immoral? Not when done with true no name pens.

Hi BoBo Olson

I think such an upgrade is ok because noname X noname = noname

If I remember correctly there must be some nice unused brass clips deep in my celler....

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab1/Thomasnr/flclipsnake.jpg

Kind Regards

Thomas

[Bo Bo Olson]

Thomas those are beautiful.

 

I don't of course have a lot of 'spare' clips that are nice.

The first one is a pretty no name, I'll not do anything but re-cork starting next week. Some times a good quality 'no name' can be just as good looking as a name pen.

 

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0427.jpg

 

 

The other two are lonely caps. One Frankies another barrel but it's just a fit. It has 9 flats and the pen body it fits is round.

Perhaps some one can ID the cap...if so it could be some one would need it.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0428-1.jpg

 

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0429.jpg

 

 

 

The last one a war cap as one can tell by the rills, has no fitting pen body. Nice clip though. It's more than likely the one to change caps if they fit.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0426.jpg

 

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0425.jpg

 

I have a couple of other 'nice' clips, but the pens have a name...even if it's a 'No Name', like a Leander (more than likely named after the famous WW2 Swedish singer), or a Pewado.

[acies]

I was a little bit angry about flat guesses like “hitler didn`t like the „Fraktur style“. He was surely able to write in all styles very well, he was an artist and tried to earn money with art- writing, commercial writing and drawing post- cards.

 

...

 

I also don`t like what we call ebay sellers research.

...

 

Hello Thomas,

 

I noticed you were angry. To my excuse I may only say: it was not just "flat guess" but "inspired guess". There's is a reference about Hiltler's dislike of Fraktur, a speech from 1934:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiqua%E2%80%93Fraktur_dispute#cite_note-2

"Didn't like" actually comes quite close, as he says Fraktur doesn't fit the era of steel and glass - which is somehow another form of saying "I don't like it".

 

All I tried was to narrow the field of search a bit to early war / pre war.

 

Yes, and you are damn right: eBay "research" should not be taken too serious as anything resembling a rusty lighter becomes "Dunhill style" on eBay. And anything old with no makers mark may easily turn into "Dunhill style, not marked, perhaps a prototype by one of the famous makers working for Dunhill I found on Google" ...

 

I use Google frequently to check if something I can't identify has been offered or sold somewhere or sometime in the past, most likely on eBay. That's all.

 

Cheers,

Aris

 

(edited for spelling)

Edited August 23, 2011 by acies

[noctrl02]

Didn't realize that Hitler et.al. didn't like Fraktur. I always associated it with Germany and the third reich...seems like when I think of a war movie I think of Fraktur. Interesting to learn this tidbit.

 

A good find...an old pen with the box and instructions. Glad that it didn't get thrown out in favor of the new! It is a beautiful pen.

 

Andy

[Kaweco]

 

I noticed you were angry. To my excuse I may only say: it was not just "flat guess" but "inspired guess". There's is a reference about Hiltler's dislike of Fraktur, a speech from 1934:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiqua%E2%80%93Fraktur_dispute#cite_note-2

"Didn't like" actually comes quite close, as he says Fraktur doesn't fit the era of steel and glass - which is somehow another form of saying "I don't like it".

 

 

Hello Aris

Ouooch... I think you are right. I really didn`t expect that there was a so early conclusion against Fraktur.

I quote from hitlers speech (translated) in 1934 published in your wiki link. It touches upon history interests:

quote:Your alleged gothic internalisation does not fit well in this age of steel and iron, glass and concrete, of womanly beauty and manly strength, of head raised high and intention defiant... In a hundred years, our language will be the European language. The nations of the east, the north and the west will, to communicate with us, learn our language. The prerequisite for this: The script called Gothic is replaced by the script we have called Latin so far.../quote

It is well known that most people in Germany wished that "a new time" will beginn end of the 20th and in the beginning of the 30th, even Graf Staufenberg or Elisabeth von Thadden had been early followers of the fascist parties. But, did the Germans listen to hitler in the early times carefully? The quote doesn`t read like a friendly co- existence between neighbours in Europe, it reads like offensive war.

Bormanns act followed and fit logically in 1941. After Duenkirchen and the occupation of France they thought they won the war.

But, sorry, we get too far away from our original topic

Thanks for the missing link

Thomas

[cocosi]

Look today sell - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EDELCHROM-pen-German-ULTRA-RARE-no-reserve-/121076679779?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PensPencils_WritingEquipment_SM&hash=item1c30bb8463

[Kaweco]

Look today sell - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EDELCHROM-pen-German-ULTRA-RARE-no-reserve-/121076679779?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PensPencils_WritingEquipment_SM&hash=item1c30bb8463

nice try ...

[georges zaslavsky]

interesting topic, I applaud your knowledge bobo