Waterproof? Water Resistant? Whats Going On?

[professionaldilettante]

This has been something that I've been wanting to get off of my chest, as it's been bothering me every time I read something on here about ink. People throw around the two terms "waterproof" and "water-resistant" like they are the same thing. I'm not a linguist, but to me, but -proof denotes something that is as defined as something impervious or impenetrable in quality, aka, it's unalterable. Something that is resistant on the other hand, means that it attempts to oppose the change, but doesn't do it completely.

Please look at these examples:

Noodler's Bay State Blue is water resistant. It does get partially washed off with water, but leaves a legible stain.

Something like Lamy Blue-Black, is waterproof. Water doesn't change it in any way once it's bonded to the paper.

See???? If this confusion is cleared up in this community, I feel that it would be much easier to understand each other in ink reviews.

There. The pressure is lifted. I'm getting off of my soap box.

[corniche]

Hello PD,

 

I understand what you mean. I think the difference in terms is more of a cultural entity; e.g., older people grew up with the term "proof." After the lawyers and the consumer advocate groups all started chiming in; companies had to change "proof" to "resistant" in most cases. The younger crowd grew up with "resistant," so they toss that word around as freely as the older folks use the term "proof."

 

Fortunately, the proof, as it were, is in the pudding- and you can usually spot whether or not an ink is waterproof or waterresistant by the water test pictures within the review.

 

All the best,

 

Sean

Edited August 15, 2011 by S. P. Colfer

[raging.dragon]

Indeed. I don't use the terms interchangably but rather to describe different behaviours.

 

There are numerous water resistant inks which can be rendered illegible or even washed entirely off the paper with some effort. However, they will survive most spills or a bit of accidental exposure to rain. There are far fewer truly waterproof inks available. As far as I know they are: Noodler warden, bulletproof and eternal inks, Private Reserve invincible inks, and iron gall inks (the latter are made by many companies, and can even be home made). Some of these inks may run a bit if they get wet, but water cannot render them illegible without destroying the paper.

[dizzypen]

Some of this depends on how much ink is put down in the paper, and what paper is used.

 

In my tests BSB is 100% waterproof. I did not loose any color at all when I did a soak test and a water droplet test and a swab test. Also, BSB is marketed as 100% waterproof. I think it's more than fair to call it a waterproof ink.

 

However, you seem to have lost some color in tests with BSB?

 

For my own purposes, any ink that remains at least 95% on the page after tests is waterproof (even with a waterproof ink, if you put a lot of ink on the page you are likely to get a tiny bit of color running off). Anything that loses significant amount of color, but remains legible is water resistant

[Lloyd]

Your test is partially comprised of evaluating if the ink is dried on/absorbed into the paper quickly enough. Iron gall inks dry quite quickly and run dry; BSB is highly saturated and, as such, can take longer to dry if it comes out of a wet nib onto low absorptive paper.

[corniche]

Your test is partially comprised of evaluating if the ink is dried on/absorbed into the paper quickly enough. Iron gall inks dry quite quickly and run dry; BSB is highly saturated and, as such, can take longer to dry if it comes out of a wet nib onto low absorptive paper.

 

Greetings all,

 

When I was doing water tests on inks for my reviews; I always gave the ink at least 20 minutes to dry, (usually, it was much longer).

 

All the best,

 

Sean

[tonybelding]

People throw around the two terms "waterproof" and "water-resistant" like they are the same thing.

 

I've always tried to be clear about the difference.

 

In the old days there was "washable" and "permanent". A permanent ink was what we now call water-resistant. Part of it would wash away, but a legible stain was left. Truly waterproof inks for fountain pens seem to be a relatively recent development.

 

Noodler's Bay State Blue is water resistant. It does get partially washed off with water, but leaves a legible stain.

Something like Lamy Blue-Black, is waterproof. Water doesn't change it in any way once it's bonded to the paper.

 

Did you not get those two mixed up? I'm not familiar with Lamy ink, but I know from experience that Baystate Blue is waterproof.

[tonybelding]

As far as I know they are: Noodler warden, bulletproof and eternal inks, Private Reserve invincible inks, and iron gall inks (the latter are made by many companies, and can even be home made).

 

Also Baystate Blue is waterproof, and so are several of the Japanese "carbon" or "pigmented" inks. They work pretty well, but do have a reputation of being high-maintenance.

 

The Warden inks are hard to categorize, as they have both a component that washes out, and also a component that is "bulletproof". The same is true of the new shading inks, I think. . . Black Swan, Blue Nosed Bear. . .

 

In terms of merely "water-resistant" inks, there are quite a few around, but it's sometimes hard to figure out which ones they are. Companies don't seem to advertise this trait much. Typically black and blue-black inks are water-resistant, but there are some exceptions. For example, I found Noodler's Blue has good water resistance, and I found that Everflo Blue-Black has none.

[raging.dragon]

As far as I know they are: Noodler warden, bulletproof and eternal inks, Private Reserve invincible inks, and iron gall inks (the latter are made by many companies, and can even be home made).

 

Also Baystate Blue is waterproof, and so are several of the Japanese "carbon" or "pigmented" inks. They work pretty well, but do have a reputation of being high-maintenance.

 

The Warden inks are hard to categorize, as they have both a component that washes out, and also a component that is "bulletproof". The same is true of the new shading inks, I think. . . Black Swan, Blue Nosed Bear. . .

 

In terms of merely "water-resistant" inks, there are quite a few around, but it's sometimes hard to figure out which ones they are. Companies don't seem to advertise this trait much. Typically black and blue-black inks are water-resistant, but there are some exceptions. For example, I found Noodler's Blue has good water resistance, and I found that Everflo Blue-Black has none.

 

Doh. I forgot about the Japanese pigment inks.

 

You're right about the Noodler Black Swan inks - I tested Black Swan in Australian Roses and Black Swan in English Roses yesterday. Alot of ink washes off, but there is most definetely a waterproof component as well.

 

I think part of the problem in this discussion is that water resistance isn't a binary trait, rather it is spectrum including everything from inks which will wash off the page with some effort (but don't do so easily) to the bulletproof and pigment inks. Thus we really should be discussing the degree of water resistance an ink possesses.

[wallylynn]

Can I get something off my chest too? In addition to waterproof vs. water resistant, there's the smearing. Sample topic: "My super-duper impossible to remove ink...smeared! I thought it was impossible to remove! It was supposed to be unalterable, now it's all smudgy." And then follows the posts to explain the conditions to the waterproofness.

 

I feel better now.

 

(If I recall correctly, watches can't be labeled waterproof, only depths of water resistance)

[JakobS]

I am definitely a stickler with this too, especially when iron gall Inks are referred to as water resistant, they are most definitely water proof, and unmovable by drops, spills , or cascades of water!

 

Just to clarify the OP statement of Lamy Blue Black being waterproof, this ink is generally considered an iron gall ink, I have yet to try it yet, but others who have on this forum have shown that this is the case.

Edited August 15, 2011 by JakobS

[Sandy1]

Hi,

 

In the course of doing Ink Reviews my method and evaluation have changed.

 

I now do a 'Splatter' and 'Soapy Soak' to emulate day-to-day domestic hazards.

• The Splattter shows the results of drops of water falling on the written sample, without blotting.
• The Soapy Soak shows the result of a portion of the written sample being immersed in what I use for hand washing dishes & cutlery. This includes a sanitising amount of bleach. So it is not a water resistance sample - the ink is exposed to washing-up liquid and bleach - more substances than plain water.
  

Also, a scale was developed to describe and assign values to the combined results - the 4S Scale:

0 : Nothing left but wrinkled paper.

1 : Some inky artifacts remain as evidence of activity, but no words legible.

2 : Over half is legible.

May provide basis for 'best guess' restoration. (Think Dead Sea scrolls.)

3 : All legible, but either very faint and/or has heavy staining from re-deposit of soluble dye.

Needs recovery/restoration for anything beyond personal use.

4 : All legible, can be easily read and/or have light staining from re-deposit of soluble dye.

Use as-is for work papers & internal use.

Adjustments to a scanner may drop-out the stain.

5 : Cannot really tell that it was wet, except for the wrinkled paper.

Line quality may be ever so slightly degraded: woolly/feathering.

Use as-is.

May need to be photocopied/scanned to replace wrinkled paper.

However, as this seemed to be irrelevant to practitioners who use nefarious acts as a means to evaluate water resistance; and use the USA Postal Service as a means to evaluate acceptability of water damaged writings, I abandoned attempts to describe the effects of water on written samples - I just refer readers to the Splatter & Soapy Soak examples. However, I do point-out unexpected results, such as those from the so-called 'bulletproof' Noodler's 41. № 41 LINK

 

So unless there is an accepted methodology of sampling, I rather doubt a common 'scale' / nomenclature can be used to uniformly describe the subsequent results of water on the written samples.

 

Enough is enough; sauve qui peut.

Also, I believe Member mstone ran some samples of inks' resistance on various papers. I do not recall the results or conclusion. (?)

 

Bye,

S1

 

Prior exploration: Comparison & Wet Tests - Pelikan Blue-Black::Montblanc Midnight Blue::Noodler's Legal Lapis. http://www.fountainp...90#entry1701290

 

EDIT - to add: Link to Noodler's # 41 IR.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Sandy1

[professionaldilettante]

Sorry guys, my bad. BSB is waterproof. I was thinking of another ink, but I forget now. If you need an example of what I was thinking of, try Pelikan Brilliant Black.