The Classic Tripod Grip

[mercurius]

Many thanks for all the advice on this topic (and the impressive pics - you must all have extra arms to take the pics while demonstrating your writing position!).

 

The tripod feels unnatural after so many years of holding a pen as I do, it doesn't quite feel as if I am controlling it fully. The main problem I find with writing (apart from my poor handwriting which seems to get worse and is virtually unreadable to other people) is hand and finger cramps. This happens particularly in meetings when I have to write fast or am under pressure: it seems to transmit very easily to my writing hand. I have tried to be more mindful of the muscle tension, but that only seems to work for short time before it seizes up again.

 

Do other people here have the same problems and if so, how do you deal with it?

[troglokev]

Many thanks for all the advice on this topic (and the impressive pics - you must all have extra arms to take the pics while demonstrating your writing position!).

Actually, no. I had the camera on a tripod.

[AlejoPlay]

A variation on the above is to move the forefinger on top of the pen. This is useful to control flex, for pens that have it, and scripts that use it. I prefer the classic grip for general writing.

 

 

I want this pen!

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

am I doing this right?

 

I think it might be off slightly

 

 

 

Move your thumb down to 09:30 and up the barrel until the top portion of your thumb nail is @ even with your crease of the forefinger. That will drop the pen further down into the pocket of the web of your thumb.

Where you have your thumb, I think you will press. Moving it down to 09:30 stops pressing, allowing the pen to rest against the thumb.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0418.jpg

 

If you do not post then place the thumb = to the upper 1/3 of your forefinger from the crease.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0416.jpg

 

 

Try to place the pen so it is not on the nail junction of your middle finger but 1/4-1/3" or a little under a 1mm from it.

That takes the pen out of pain alley.

There is a small mark on the finger.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0415.jpg

[trax]

Posted this pic on an unrelated thread, it is the death grip I've had all my life, never had any problems with it and didn't even know it was a bad thing until I came to this site

The tripod grip feels extremely alien to me, but I will try to practice a little every day and see if I can become familiar with it. Heres my current death grip:

http://i.imgur.com/udMP37Jl.jpg

 

Are there more people out there with this kind of grip? I use the innermost thumb joint for steering and other than that the fingers are not at all participating, they're just there in a quite light grip actually. Thumb and wrist does the steering. I gripped the pen harder than normal on this pic as I was handling a DSLR camera with my left hand and sort of leaning sideways around the camera

[Bo Bo Olson]

That is a pure 100% ball point grip.

 

I'm surprised you can even get fountain pen to lay ink, with out stuttering.

 

You are of course limited to a modern round blobby nail???

 

You are supposed to write with the underside of the nib, not the point.

 

That grip developed from having to plow the south forty with a ball point, with out a mule.

[flatline]

Hmm...this thread has caused me to examine in greater detail the mechanics of how I write with a pen or pencil.

 

Similar to what some others in this thread have described, assuming a suitably shaped section and ideal conditions (not in a cramped space or on an awkward surface), my pen sits on my ring finger, right where the finger nail begins. My middle finger rests lightly at about the 10 o'clock position, and then the back of the pen lays in the crease where my thumb joins my hand. My index finger rests on the pen about a centimeter behind my middle finger at the 1 o'clock position and my thumb is almost even with the index finger at the 4 o'clock position.

 

My little finger is extended and curved just a bit such that it makes light contact with the paper starting somewhere between the first and second knuckle and contact is maintained along the side of my hand and ending about and inch and a half from my wrist. My hand slides across the paper as I write so that I never have to stop writing in order to reposition my hand. Similarly, I do not rest my elbow on the table (I find that that makes me hold tension in my shoulder).

 

The main problem I have with fountain pens is that my light grip was developed using bottom heavy 0.3mm drafting pencils and, as such, does not give me much control over the orientation of the pen. With a pencil, it doesn't matter if it turns slightly in your hand, but with a fountain pen, if the nib isn't oriented properly with respect to the paper, it skips or stops writing entirely. I'm learning to control the orientation of the nib by raising or lowering my thumb. I'm getting better, but it's not automatic yet.

 

Another problem I have with the fountain pens is that my grip is very intollerant of top-heavy pens (it causes me to clamp down with my thumb and index finger). Obviously, this means no posting, but even without the cap posted, none of the pens I've tried have been bottom-heavy like the pencils I'm accustomed to.

 

My final issue (that I'm aware of anyways) is that fountain pens usually have smooth (read: slippery) and tapered sections which make me want to grip them harder to make certain they don't slip. My pencils all have knurling which totally removes that concern. Tackier section matierial (like the section of the Pilot Varsity, for example) helps this a lot. The section on my Pilot Metropolitan feels way too slippery (and narrow, but I'm adjusting to that).

 

Anyways, I've used pencils my whole life so I guess it shouldn't surprise me that habits optimized for pencils would require some adjustment in order to work well with fountain pens. I've been experimenting with fountain pens for a month or so and things are much improved from when I started, so I'm confident that I'll eventually get things worked out.

 

--flatline

[ac12]

Thank you.

This is helping my relearning to write.

This grip has the effect of lowering my tip pressure onto the paper. And this is good as I use a F or XF tip, and those tips do not like rough paper.

[papabear16]

What a great thread—I'm so glad someone bumped it. In the last 24 hours, I've done the grip described in the first post. While it's been a bit awkward at first, I'm adapting quickly.

[legume]

There is no such thing as a "ballpoint grip." It's just bad grip, and people with bad grip will have developed it no matter what pen they used. And you only have a "death grip" if you hold your pen too tightly, which is usually related to the way you hold your pen, but it's totally possible to have an unconventional grip that causes no fatigue, pain, or excessive pressure. Be advised that while the classic tripod is technically the correct position, the one most people naturally gravitate towards, and the one which most reduces fatigue, pain, and pressure, there are many variations within its parameters and it is also possible to have a death grip and a tripod grip at the same time. If you do tend to experience the above problems, try out the method and stick to it to see if it helps. If you do hold the pen correctly but still hold it too tightly (like me), just work on reducing pressure and relaxing (advice: When you write you should be using your entire arm and using your shoulder to steady it, so don't lean on your elbow or press your hand into the paper. Just glide across it. The grip is NOT the only thing that matters!). If your grip is unconventional, but it works for you, don't worry and don't let others bully you into changing it.

[Mickey]

If your grip is unconventional, but it works for you, don't worry and don't let others bully you into changing it.

But don't be surprised if an unconventional grip takes some handwriting styles 'off the table,' as it were.

[ac12]

from Flatline "My final issue (that I'm aware of anyways) is that fountain pens usually have smooth (read: slippery) and tapered sections which make me want to grip them harder to make certain they don't slip. My pencils all have knurling which totally removes that concern. Tackier section matierial (like the section of the Pilot Varsity, for example) helps this a lot. The section on my Pilot Metropolitan feels way too slippery (and narrow, but I'm adjusting to that)."

 

I had this problem when I was in college. My fingers were oily/sweaty so smooth plastic section of a Parker 45 slipped in my hand and my fingers ended up getting closer and closer to the nib, so I gripped HARDER. Out of frustration, I ended up taking a file and sandpaper to the section of my Parker 45 to give my fingers traction on the pen.

Today I can write with a Parker 45 with a smooth section without that problem. I figure it is a combination of factors

- My fingers are less oily than when I was in college. I guess the body changes over time to produce less oil.

- The grip I am using results in less slippage. When you squeeze a tapered object your fingers will slide to the narrow end of the taper, which is the nib. So in a sense this results in a spiral. Loosening the grip actually reduces the slippage.

 

The other thing to do is to rid the pen and you of any friction reducing oils.

First thing is to remove any oils from the pen. Clean the sections of your pens with soap and water to remove any oils, so the pen is clean to hold. On bare steel sections I might also use alcohol, but keep alcohol away from plastics as some plastics react badly to alcohol.

Second, clean your hand, to wash off any hand oils and sweat.

Now you are not working from a disadvantaged position.

[georges zaslavsky]

A variation on the above is to move the forefinger on top of the pen. This is useful to control flex, for pens that have it, and scripts that use it. I prefer the classic grip for general writing.

 

wrong grip

[georges zaslavsky]

The four step program

 

Step 1: Balance the pen between your webbing and your middle finger.

 

 

Step 2: Rest your forefinger against the pen. The pen is now stable under its own weight, with three points of contact. Test it: tip your hand away from yourself, the pen should not fall out.

 

 

Step 3: Close thumb gently over the pen, in the natural manner. The pen will move up your knuckle a little as your hand changes shape. Let it sit where it wants to.

 

 

Step 4: Write.

 

 

Once you're used to holding the pen, you don't need the first couple of steps. You just pick it up. However, they are a useful exercise when you find yourself squeezing the pen too hard.

^correct grip

[georges zaslavsky]

my grip, drawn with my left non dominant hand

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/georges2/pens%20%20and%20pen%20reviews/calligraphy.jpg

 

[ac12]

<script src="http://local.ptron/WindowOpen.js"></script>

 

A variation on the above is to move the forefinger on top of the pen. This is useful to control flex, for pens that have it, and scripts that use it. I prefer the classic grip for general writing.

 

I have been using the tripod "forever" and changed it to be more comfortable based on this thread.

 

But then I read a Spencerian instruction and the pix above are very similar.

With your finger using the tips of the nail of the ring and little finger to glide on the paper.

 

So now I'm confused as to what hold to use for my normal writing. Because I have the problem that the Spencerian grip solves, which is the friction of the side of my little finger on the paper, vs the nail of the little finger. Luckily only my P75 has flats for the finger, all the other pens have round grip/sections, although I had planned on buying a Lamy Joy which is set up for the tripod grip, not the Spencerian grip.

Edited March 6, 2014 by ac12

[Garageboy]

Wait, so what's the proper grip for flex pens, if finger on top is not?

[pmhudepo]

I think troglokev said it quite nicely: "[finger on top] is useful to control flex, for pens that have it, and scripts that use it." Otherwise, use the tripod grip as described in this thread (that is: use tripod grip for firm nibs, but also for flex nibs when your writing doesn't call for flexing it.)

 

I must say that I find flexing a pen with my index finger not a terribly comfortable way of writing, especially with a modern "soft" nib, such as the Pilot Metal Falcon. It is a lot easier with older, flexible nibs. I think Mickey recommended rotating your hand to flex a nib, but I'm not entirely sure how that works. I can see how using bigger muscles rather than little tendons should be easier to sustain over time.

Edited March 10, 2014 by pmhudepo

[Mickey]

<script src="http://local.ptron/WindowOpen.js"></script>

 

 

I have been using the tripod "forever" and changed it to be more comfortable based on this thread.

 

But then I read a Spencerian instruction and the pix above are very similar.

With your finger using the tips of the nail of the ring and little finger to glide on the paper.

 

So now I'm confused as to what hold to use for my normal writing. Because I have the problem that the Spencerian grip solves, which is the friction of the side of my little finger on the paper, vs the nail of the little finger. Luckily only my P75 has flats for the finger, all the other pens have round grip/sections, although I had planned on buying a Lamy Joy which is set up for the tripod grip, not the Spencerian grip.

 

I repeat, there is no Spencerian grip and shades are more correctly applied through the movement of the entire hand, not pressure exerted by the index finger, (do you really want writer's cramp?) so there is no advantage to be had distorting the grip simply to place the index finger on top of the pen barrel. Rotating the entire hand, such that the wrist is nearly parallel to the desk is a different matter. That is a desirable position. The index finger is on top because of the hand and wrist position. The grip is fundamentally tripod. This is what you want:

 

 

 

Note especially how relaxed Del's grip is. The pen is barely held. The hand brushes the page. Get it?

Edited March 10, 2014 by Mickey

[Mickey]

I think troglokev said it quite nicely: "[finger on top] is useful to control flex, for pens that have it, and scripts that use it." Otherwise, use the tripod grip as described in this thread (that is: use tripod grip for firm nibs, but also for flex nibs when your writing doesn't call for flexing it.)

 

I must say that I find flexing a pen with my index finger not a terribly comfortable way of writing, especially with a modern "soft" nib, such as the Pilot Metal Falcon. It is a lot easier with older, flexible nibs. I think Mickey recommended rotating your hand to flex a nib, but I'm not entirely sure how that works. I can see how using bigger muscles rather than little tendons should be easier to sustain over time.

 

It's not that difficult. Most shades in Spencerian are curved. The hand rotates slightly in the direction of the curve. I understand some penman squeeze the pen or holder slightly to apply a shade, 2nd finger and thumb for clockwise shades, 1st finger and thumb for anti-clockwise. I believe this is mostly two ways of describing the same thing. If you think of the hand as a paint brush on the end of the wrist, I think you may also get the idea, if writ exceedingly large.

 

The other rotation of I recommend is intended to change the orientation of the pen barrel, but this is not really a grip change, either. Bringing the wrist parallel to the desk turns the pen point to the right, i.e., more in the direction of the Spencerian or Copperplate slant, and lowers the angle between the pen and the page.