Death Grip Elimination...

[taranir]

I have a very similar problem with my hand shaking. It isn't so much of an issue with writing, but the tremor becomes even more noticeable when I draw with a tablet pen, which is much more sensitive than pen-and-paper and picks up every tiny movement. The only solution I found to correct this, unfortunately, was to develop a death grip for linearting-- which then transferred over to my handwriting as well.

I do have a tripod grip, and I can write normally with a Safari. But I grip the pen with my fingers so hard that my joints ache after one or two hours. If there is a solution to this trembling, I'd love to read about it.

[Shaughn]

  On 7/26/2011 at 10:28 PM, DanF said:

Here is a photo of the grip I was trying to describe. I don't know if this is actually the tripod grip or not, but it is a very relaxed grip, I think that one may have the thumb on the section too, and is a minor deviation of this one. Either one leaves the hand in a very natural, restful state. Don't know how your tremor will figure into the equation, but there has already been much advice for you to experiment with. Hope some of it proves helpful. Good luck.

 

 

Dan

 

This is the tripod grip indeed, as it should be. A death grip is a tripod gone wrong.

 

Just to add some more information:

http://www.janice-campbell.com/2011/07/11/how-to-hold-a-pen-or-pencil/

http://www.drawyourworld.com/lessons/hold-the-pencil.html

http://www.ringpen.com/ABCD/

 

and ofcourse

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/162555-the-death-grip/

[Bo Bo Olson]

I find this important in I have moved the pen down from the middle knuckle nail junction 1/4-1/3 of an inch or about 1cm. It is out of the dent or callus and rests there, where it is harder to add pressure that many are use to.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0415.jpg

 

 

Having looked at the pictures it's not quite what I wanted to show but close and the difference is not much. Shows I'm more flexible in my ways of grasping a pen than I thought.

 

I am placing my forefinger at @ 12:30. You can place it at 12:00, 12:30 or 13:00 as you wish.

 

 

The main thing is having the forefinger up, and the thumb pad flat, with only enough pressure to hold a featherless baby bird.

 

If you post you move your thumb pad up the barrel a tad to @ the crease of the first joint of the forefinger. Re Read what I wrote.

 

This is a non-posted pen, a medium large thick MB Virginia Woolf, a nice springy modern B or vintage BB. It rests just after the first finger fore knuckle.

The thumb pad is a bit lower on the pen.

This if I had thought a bit would show you the 45 degree angle. I was more interested in showing the forefinger up and thumb position rather than the angle. :embarrassed_smile:

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0417.jpg

 

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0416.jpg

 

The next are posted pens. The basic trick is to move your thumb up the barrel of the pen a tad when posting.

 

If you are posting a heavy metal pen like a Lamy Persona or a Cross Townsend your whole 'grip' will move up the pen until you find a balance point.(With a tad of practice your writing will be normal.)

A light metal pen like a silver P-75 does not require moving up the pen.

 

This is a nice perfectly balanced (for me) thin(P-75 width but longer) rolled gold trim Geha 725 a grand semi-flex M. It actually sits a tad ( a pen width) lower than a non posted pen...at about the start of the web of my thumb or 40 degrees.

 

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0418.jpg

 

 

This is a back weighted MB 234 1/2 Deluxe (52-55 only) Grand...Semi-flex KOB. I did not think to grab a heavier metal pen. It is a 'heavier' plastic pen because of the brass piston guts, and back weighting.

It normally rests in the depth of the web of my thumb...or 35 degrees.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0419-1.jpg

 

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0419.jpg

 

I hope now what I wrote makes sense.

repeat of the other post.

I do not like the 'classic' tripod grip.

The reason I don't like that is it promoted a thumbnail 'crab pinch' and pressure.

 

I like either of two versions I call the forefinger up.

That takes two minutes to learn.

I was able to switch back and forth real easy. With in a week I found I was using a forefinger up method of grasping my pen 90% of the time with no thought.

Now the only pen I grasp other wise is my triangle gripped P-75.

 

 

It takes two-four minutes to practice. With one sheet of paper, where you let your writing flow very large on the first 1/3 of the page, some what large in the second third, and smaller in the last third.

If you have super tiny writing, you have to turn the page over and continue.

 

If you write super tiny...micro-management it may take longer.

IMO any one can learn to write larger...if they wish...some are super stubborn too.

Writing larger (On Demand) allows one to play with nibs and inks. There are free templates that allow you to scale the lines you print on your paper to wide, medium and small and even tiny.

I'd write a bit larger for a few extra pages to let your writing settle in. You can go back to super tiny micro-management writing if you wish....but that is sort of against the flow.

 

 

Second, go to advanced search and type in including quotes; "Death Grip" in this section....writing instruments.

 

First:

Take your pen, place the section 1/4-1/3 of an inch lower than the nail junction of your middle forefinger joint. A tad down from the dent or callus you have.

 

Place your forefinger on top of the section, between 12:00-13:00.

 

If you are not posting.....place the pad of your thumb parallel to the pen barrel so there is a gap between your forefinger and pad of your thumb. If you are placing your forefinger at 12:00 the gap will be smaller than if you place your forefinger at 13:00.

 

The end of your thumbnail will be under the last 1/3d of the forefinger first joint pad.

 

The barrel of the fountain pen will be behind the big knuckle of your forefinger about 45 degrees.

............

 

If you post, the end of your thumbnail will be at the crease of your first joint of your forefinger...with a gap between forefinger and thumb pad.

Depending on how heavy the pen is, it will be a tad lower than the 45 degrees of a non posted pen. It will be at 40 degrees or the start of the web of your thumb.

Should the pen be heavy it will rest in the pocket of the web of your thumb, which would be about 35 degrees.

 

Do not force a pen to be somewhere, let it rest somewhere in the web of your thumb as the weight of the pen dictates.

Different pens will rest in different parts of the web of your thumb.

 

You are not fighting your pen.

 

 

You Do No Grip the pen, you Grasp it, like you were holding a baby featherless bird.

That is all the pressure you need to write with.

You are not plowing the south forty with out a mule like with a Ball Point Pen.

The fountain pen skates on a small puddle of ink.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Bo Bo Olson

[mstone]

Don't worry if you can't find a difference between bo-bo's long-discussed grip and an actual tripod grip, you're not alone. It's the same grip that's been drilled into scribes for hundreds of years, just don't tense up or apply too much pressure--it should be possible to pull the pen out of your hand while writing with it. The angle of the pen is a bit of personal preference: for longhand I tend to keep it low toward the thumb, for italic/calligraphy much higher and more toward the vertical. (The latter is more in line with older tradition, and maximizes line variation, but I find it less suited for high speed cursive writing. It's probably a bit more prone to falling into bad-habit ballpoint tight gripping.)

[Bo Bo Olson]

I've noticed many shades of rose colored glasses, that allow one to see what one wants, and not what one could see with un-tinted glasses.

 

The basic difference is a flat thumb pad and not a nail on the barrel...pinching it. Look at the 'basic' tripod and you are pinching with one finger and one thumb nail.

I explained before the tripod is a pinch way of gripping a pen. :bonk:

 

I have also said I don't like the word grip because it has pressure associated with it. Grasping is a less forceful word, except for money.

 

I said there is as I see it two versions of the tripod; the two finger pinch , and the forefinger up.

 

Tripod is real good for pencils, and ball points that have to be dragged by force across a sheet of paper. If you look at the drawings showing the tripod, you see the Tripod Pinch.

 

There is two slight variations of the forefinger up, depending where you place your thumb pad; depending on if you post or not.

 

This eliminates plowing the south forty with out the mule like a tripod nail pinch grip.

[mstone]

  On 7/28/2011 at 4:52 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

I've noticed many shades of rose colored glasses, that allow one to see what one wants, and not what one could see with un-tinted glasses.

 

The basic difference is a flat thumb pad and not a nail on the barrel...pinching it. Look at the 'basic' tripod and you are pinching with one finger and one thumb nail.

 

Except that's not the tripod--you were doing it wrong and invented a whole new word for the classic tripod grasp, which serves only to increase confusion. If you check the links posted by others above you'll see that they all warn against squeezing the pen tightly or holding it at too high an angle or with a clenched first. I can't fathom how you'd put a thumbnail on the pen with a proper tripod grip unless you've got nails that belong in Guinness' book.

 

  Quote

Tripod is real good for pencils, and ball points that have to be dragged by force across a sheet of paper.

 

You're ignoring the fact that people were holding their pens with a classic tripod back when the pen was what you shoved into your pen-holder.

[Mickey]

Bobo, old buddy, you seem to be trying to reinvent the wheel.

 

What you demonstrate in your photos is the tripod grip, i.e., the pen is stabilized (loosely) by three points (one each from the thumb and first 2 fingers) with the barrel resting somewhere in the web between index finger and thumb. Where exactly the three contact point are on the digits and where the barrel contacts the web is determined by the size of the hand, the relative length of the digits, the diameter of the gripped area of the pen barrel, and the rotation of the hand relative to the page. The distance between the grip points and the nib end will also create variation. In other words, two tripod grips may appear quite different while being operationally identical.

 

Trying to exactly mimic another person's grip (or even clone one's own on a different sized pen) can result in tension and fatigue. The concept is important, not any particular realization.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Mstone.

If you had cared to look, you can find old drawings of masters of penmanship having a fore finger up.

Some nice poster posted a link to that showing they had used a fore finger up method of grasping a pen holder also, back when a pen was the nib.

 

What is there to confuse? If some one tries the method I learned here and pass on, that I call fore finger up...in that is what it is, a fore finger on top of the pen, and not at 02:00 pinching lightly or otherwise, it works. If it works there is no confusion.

What is confusing is calling something gripping at 2 and 10 (classic triangle) the forefinger up method of grasping a fountain pen.

They are similar like a VW and a Porsche.

 

You can hold it like a tripod with your fingers at 10 and 2 with your finger joints bent in and pinch....lightly.

Or you can put your forefinger on top; basically sort of flat , 12-12:30-13:00 with the pad of the thumb flat at @ 09:30 and grasp the fountain pen lightly with out having to crab pinch the pen like a classic tripod.

 

One wishes only to prove a point in assumed semantics; where I wish to show a better and easy way to grasp a fountain pen.

 

 

I as I have stated lots of times, I find the classic tripod, for me not the best way to grasp a fountain pen; it promotes pinching.

I used the 'classic' tripod; dent and callus on the middle finger joint and all, ever since the day of the nickel Snickers and dime comic book.

 

Then two years ago I got ever so lucky and learned one forefinger up method, and adapted that to posting pens also.

 

Read my signature.

 

Mickey. a triangle is a triangle, but there are a few different kinds. When I moved my left thumb a 1/4 of an inch to the right, I stopped slicing a golf ball. So is it with fountain pens.

Fore finger to the side or on top...makes a big difference.

 

I find it wrong to say triangle grip when that means 10-2 not 9:30-12:30. A huge difference of flat finger/thumb pads vs pinched in end finger knuckles is a huge difference too.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Bo Bo Olson

[Mickey]

  On 7/28/2011 at 6:39 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

Mstone.

If you had cared to look, you can find old drawings of masters of penmanship having a fore finger up.

Some nice poster posted a link to that showing they had used a fore finger up method of grasping a pen holder also, back when a pen was the nib.

 

 

I have looked, possibly more extensively than you have, starting back 3 decades ago. I stand by my original statement. Fore-finger up hardly qualifies as a variation. I would also point out that the human hand is possibly the most difficult object to draw accurately. It is quite possible that drawings in old manuals are far from anatomically correct or usefully illustrative. (The hands I've seen in some old books would not look out of place in an F. W. Murnau film.)

[Mickey]

  On 7/28/2011 at 5:34 PM, mstone said:

 

I can't fathom how you'd put a thumbnail on the pen with a proper tripod grip unless you've got nails that belong in Guinness' book.

 

 

In fairness to BoBo, it's not that difficult to put the corner of the thumbnail on the section. I just don't find that variation comfortable or more useful than the more conventional placement. It still fundamentally tripod.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Mickey

[Sailor Kenshin]

THe pics help a lot. Thanks.

[mstone]

  On 7/28/2011 at 6:39 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

What is there to confuse? If some one tries the method I learned here and pass on, that I call fore finger up...in that is what it is, a fore finger on top of the pen, and not at 02:00 pinching lightly or otherwise, it works. If it works there is no confusion.

What is confusing is calling something gripping at 2 and 10 (classic triangle) the forefinger up method of grasping a fountain pen.

They are similar like a VW and a Porsche.

 

What's confusing is making up terms that other people can't investigate without reading repetitive multi-page diatribes from the same person, especially if those same rants dismiss a traditional, centuries-old practice essentially by misattributing it.

 

  Quote

You can hold it like a tripod with your fingers at 10 and 2 with your finger joints bent in and pinch....lightly.

 

If you're pinching, you're not using the traditional tripod grip. Just because you're using three fingers doesn't make it the tripod grip. E.g., you can hold a pen with your thumb, ring finger, and pinky. This is "a tripod" but it is not the tripod grip.

 

  Quote

One wishes only to prove a point in assumed semantics; where I wish to show a better and easy way to grasp a fountain pen.

 

No, I wish to clear up confusion for people who research pen grasps, see the traditional one, but are sure there's something wrong with it because there's a really really long and dedicated series of rants against it. E.g.,:

 

  Quote

I as I have stated lots of times, I find the classic tripod, for me not the best way to grasp a fountain pen; it promotes pinching.

I used the 'classic' tripod; dent and callus on the middle finger joint and all, ever since the day of the nickel Snickers and dime comic book.

 

If you were pinching, you were not doing the traditional tripod. It sounds like you may have started with the tripod and then morphed into the typical "ballpoint vertical" hold, but redefining the traditional hold and inventing a new term for it only adds to the confusion.

[Bo Bo Olson]

As was taught in the late '50's with a posted fountain pen held just behind the big knuckle and or in the web of the thumb...Classic Triangle 10-2, tip of the forefinger and thumb Pinch Method.

 

 

Was there, rented the table to the guy selling the T-shirts.

 

Can remember when cartridges hit the poor folk too.

 

Prefer the method of flat forefinger and thumb pad at 9:90-12:30 I now use. Took me two minutes to chance from the classic tripod to something better. Took me a bit more to adapt my thumb up the barrel a tad for a posted fountain pen; making it more balanced.

 

It's too bad you nor anyone else tells any fountain pen noobie that one of the first things he's got to learn to hold a fountain pen different than a ball point.

I do.

You don't.

 

So I'll use my terminology; as I do, to explain the way I do it.

 

You can feel free to explain the exact way you do any time you wish to do so. But you don't.

 

And I feel my way is better; having tried the 'classic' Tripod for 50 years of 'doing it wrong' and finding it lacking due to the fact that too much pressure can be applied easily.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Bo Bo Olson

[Sleepy]

  On 7/28/2011 at 11:57 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

 

Was there, rented the table to the guy selling the T-shirts.

 

 

How can anyone argue with a man who randomly inserts sentences like this into his writings.

 

Although I agree with BoBo that it is good to be imparting knowledge to the newbies (myself included) I think that mstone and Mickey have a point when they argue that you should really be using the correct terminology when trying to help said newbies. It's all well and good inventing your own terms, but unless they become the terms that are universally used it really does just increase confusion. We've had a similar discussion in the past regarding your choice of terms for flexible nibs, which you have actually altered so now an increase in flexibility corresponds with the correct vocabulary (thank you ). In fact I have a similar issue with your use of grasp and grip (where you imply that the word 'grasp' means 'to grip lightly') but am too lazy to pull you up on it! Back to the point, maybe an agreed upon set of vocabularly is the way forward here, and would save this post from what seems like an attack on BoBo (which I don't mean it to be).

[Bo Bo Olson]

Good.

Modern fountain pens are really great, they allow one to write just like a ball point.

There fore how they hold one is their problem...well it ain't a problem, is it...as long as they stay from old pens with its obsolete grind angles and weird bendy nibs.

 

You are right I shouldn't confuse noobies any more.

I'll let the experts do it...if and when.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Bo Bo Olson

[Glenn-SC]

  On 7/28/2011 at 11:57 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

It's too bad you nor anyone else tells any fountain pen noobie that one of the first things he's got to learn to hold a fountain pen different than a ball point.

I do.

You don't.

 

If I have to "change my grip" to make a particular FP work then I get a different FP.

 

II have many many many FPs that work with my natural and customary grip and I use those just fine.

 

[Let's see, with this pen I need to put my thumb at 10:21 and my index finger at 2:46 and push upward with the middle finger with 0.12oz of pressure and hold the whole contraption exactly 23degrees from horizontal and THEN I can get good ink flow and 1.5x variation in line width. Oh boy!]

[pmhudepo]

  On 7/26/2011 at 2:17 PM, Mickey said:

Probably the easiest way to lose the Death Grip doesn't involve writing at all, but simply holding the pen in a relaxed manner while not writing. Grip the pen lightly while reading or watching television, let the rest of your arm relax. When holding the pen lightly becomes second nature, when you stop noticing you're holding it, only then start trying to use it. Start by drawing simple figures, lines, circles, and spirals, starting large and gradually decreasing their size until they approach the scale of writing. When you can draw these figures easily, then try writing.

 

Remember you are trying to decouple a bad habit from a necessary skill. It may take time. Hint: pay attention to how you start moving the pen. If your grip pressure increases as soon as you begin moving the pen (or before!), stop immediately. Begin again (and again...) until you can start moving the pen without immediately (or preemptively) tightening up. (This will probably seem odd, but watching your hand while you try may help a lot.)

 

I recommend a tripod grip. how arched your index finger is in this grip relates to hand size and confirmation and to pen barrel diameter and length. Don't slavishly try to make your hand look exactly like some picture you've seen. How rotated your wrist and hand are when your grip the pen will also change the appearance of your grip.

 

Remember, when you change your grip, you may also change the orientation of your writing line, so be prepared to change your paper position. In fact, you may discover that simply changing the rotation of the page on the desk may help you reduce your grip pressure.

 

+1 on this advice. It's what I've been trying to do during my handwriting practice session for the past 2 weeks.

 

Indeed, when I write, old habits like a death grip creep in. The more I concentrate on the writing, the worse it gets. When I doodle, sketch, cross hatch, I can relax more easily. See my "Fun with handwriting practice" thread in the Penmanship forum for the kind of silly stuff this results in. Slow progress, but at age 37 it has been a while since I learned how to write and those bad habits have had a long time to settle in.

 

I did always use a tripod grip on my pen. I guess I was taught well. I just tend to grip it too tightly, perhaps also resulting in too much pressure on the nib.

Edited July 29, 2011 by pmhudepo

[Bo Bo Olson]

Perhaps you should try to learn the un-classic tripod. It takes a whole two minutes...no more death grip. No more excessive pressure.

 

Works well, the only pen I use the 'classic' tripod on now is the American P-75 with it's triangle tripod grip...the French version with out that tripod grip is high on my buy list.

 

As to reading why I say grasp and some don't. You can vice-grip the little dead bird any way you want too. I grasp the little featherless birdy and and put him back in his nest still chirping.

 

Glenn, Whoops I'm so sorry, I do know from my reading that many no longer know how to tell time from a round faced clock.

I really can't tell you how to grip a pen digitally. Well your solution to the problem of not being able to tell time does work for you.

[pmhudepo]

I always thought The Tripod (or Triangular) Pen Hold by caliken an excellent explanation, with Ghost Plane's addition to "Drop the pen into the webbing between thumb and forefinger". I just don't grip the pen above the threads as she suggests, but suspect that may be due to the choice of pen and size of hands. Or, more likely, my inexperience in these matters.

 

Bo Bo, I hope you take no offence, but "Classic Triangle 10-2" reads a bit like a police conversation to me. 10-9 say again? 10-7 pmhudepo out of service.

 

Edited to add that I am learning (here, and while writing) all the time and I certainly find threads like this interesting.

Edited July 29, 2011 by pmhudepo

[Moagy]

  On 7/29/2011 at 1:55 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

I really can't tell you how to grip a pen digitally.

 

Gripping a pen digitally is the most common method of use.

 

Of course some people use their mouth or foot, but for 90% it's the digits that do it!