My Rotring 600 Mech Pencils

[attika89]

I'm a huge fan of these pencils and I have them for a while, but I was thinking:

I have 3 of them, but they are all different inside:

 

I have no idea about the exact age of the two older ones, but they are clearly not from the same series....

The newest has the "lava finish" thats for sure only has the lead diameter on it so that is clear...

It'd be good to know the approx age of the other two as well

....I'm still very happy I could get them only for $27....

Edited May 22, 2011 by attika89

[Number3124]

That third one is a third generation 600 made in Japan. I'm not sure so don't quote me on this, but I think the first one is a second generation German one and the second one is a first generation German.

[mana]

First two are first gen even though the internals differ, second gen was of completely different design externally (tip is a cone instead of the stepped design, no knurling on grip etc.). Curious, have not seen any first gens with the plastic internal mechanism before.

[Tinola]

I got a first gen as well. They're so nice. Fits perfectly in my hand. Mine is silver though.

[streeton]

First two are first gen even though the internals differ, second gen was of completely different design externally (tip is a cone instead of the stepped design, no knurling on grip etc.). Curious, have not seen any first gens with the plastic internal mechanism before.

Like the OP, I also have 2 series 1 RR600's - one with the spring and one with the white sheath. There must be some telepathy going on here because on other forums I have also been asking this same question - are there two or more versions of the series 1? I can't find anything on the web - most places seem to concern themselves with the Rotring lettering on the barrel and not the internals at the grip section. I bought my "spring" version in 1991 and just a couple of days ago received my NOS version with the white sheath and was surprised that there was no spring. They both have the full "rotring" red lettering followed by the lead size which supposedly is the major determinant of a series 1 - however I think the spring at the grip section seems to be clearer evidence (1991 purchase). I still need to be convinced my recent acquisition is a series 1 and not a series 2 with full rotring lettering (never heard of this combination before).

 

Because of the need to accomodate the plastic white sheath neither of the grip sections are interchangeable - seems odd that a critical design difference such as non interchangeable grip sections doesn't create a different series number.

 

I'm pretty sure the only difference between series 1 and 2 (other than the above discussed issue - series 2 has the white sheath also) is the lack of the "rotring" red lettering on the barrel, only the lead size is shown.

 

Check this ebay auction for a Series 2.

 

I hope this queston can be solved.

 

Edited for clarity

Edited May 22, 2011 by streeton

[Number3124]

I've always wanted to try out a rOtring 600 first generation MP/FP/BP combo, but I think I would completely blow my budget.

Edited May 22, 2011 by Number3124

[flight878]

I concur that the upper two are Series 1 Rotring 600 pencils, and the last is the Series 3 made in Japan. All current production of the Rotring 600 pencils is from Japan. The included little paper manual has the old logo of the Osaka-based Holbein Works Ltd, a large manufacturer of art supplies, which can only indicate that it's the company licensed by Rotring (i.e., Sanford, i.e., Newell-Rubbermaid) to produce the pencils.

 

As additional info for the fans, Rotring has been producing some of its 600 products in Japan long before it was bought by Sanford. I have a Series 1 Rotring 600 knurled ballpoint with "Japan" engraved on the clip, and I've seen a Series 1 Rotring 600 Trio (black) on eBay with "Japan" engraved on the barrel right above the knurled grip.

 

Somewhere in the catacombs of this forum lurks the Gottlieb Document, which gives a thorough summary of the evolution of Rotring 600 series writing tools on a spreadsheet. Regrettably, based on my investigations and efforts to acquire a satisfactory specimen of the Rotring 600 Trio multi-pen matriarchs for a reasonable price, that document contains a few possible inaccuracies. Per the Gottlieb Document, the Series 2 600 pencils contained the lead diameter marked in red on the barrel, in addition to 'mm', but I've never seen such a version for sale, only the diameter printed (e.g., 0.5, 0.7) with decimal point and not the European comma format. Also, the Series 3 was described to have no marking of any kind on the barrel. I've seen these models for sale on the German eBay, and the only way you could identify the lead diameter of the pencil is by inspecting the cap engraving.

Edited May 22, 2011 by flight878

[streeton]

I still believe the middle pencil in the OP's photo is a series 2 (or at least an uncategorized series 2). It is closer to a series 2 as pictured and described in other places on the web - identical grip section design with white plastic sheath, just with the full Rotring lettering on the barrel. Using the rotring lettering on the barrel as the main determinant of series number as opposed to significant design differences at the grip section (noted at post #5) I find rather odd.

 

Did the Rotring company name these series numbers or are they a consensus of rotring owners determining them?

 

EDIT: If it is true that the top 2 photos are both series 1 - then the next question is when did rotring start manufacturing the plastic sheath series 1?, which has to be later than my 1991 spring version ....and, which is more common?.

Edited May 22, 2011 by streeton

[streeton]

I can answer my own question on why there are two series 1 models of the pencil... because the series number was determined across all their 600 models BP/RB/FP/MP not just the pencil and the lettering was the determining criteria. (at least I think thats the answer).

 

Now I know there are two variants I shall ask the vendor in future which series 1 pencil I am buying by asking them to check the grip section for a spring or white sheath, because the internals are rarely photographed when buying online. I am particularly looking to complete the "spring" version in series 1.

 

flight878 - I agree with your observations regarding the "mm" in series 2 on the excel spreadsheet. My ebay link in post #5 bears this out. Also are you aware that the clip on the spring model is 36mm and the clip on the white sheath version is 34mm. Just another bit of difference.

 

EDIT - Thanks to the OP for the excellent pics - its always easier discussing issues when there are excellent pics to analyse.

Edited May 22, 2011 by streeton

[attika89]

Thank you EVERYONE for the answers!

I have to say I'm somewhat "happy" to see that I'm not the only one who is a bit confused about this series thing.

I could not find any more information than you've said here.

This is surely interesting!

 

I thought I've saved that mentioned datasheet of the evolution of the series, but I can't find ti now

I remember there wasn't any further info, except the lettering and the retracing gold or non-retracing tips...

 

EDIT - Thanks to the OP for the excellent pics - its always easier discussing issues when there are excellent pics to analyse.

Thanks

Edited May 22, 2011 by attika89

[streeton]

Thank you EVERYONE for the answers!

I have to say I'm somewhat "happy" to see that I'm not the only one who is a bit confused about this series thing.

I could not find any more information than you've said here.

This is surely interesting!

 

I thought I've saved that mentioned datasheet of the evolution of the series, but I can't find ti now

I remember there wasn't any further info, except the lettering and the retracing gold or non-retracing tips...

 

EDIT - Thanks to the OP for the excellent pics - its always easier discussing issues when there are excellent pics to analyse.

Thanks

 

Heres the Spreadsheet.

[attika89]

Thank you EVERYONE for the answers!

I have to say I'm somewhat "happy" to see that I'm not the only one who is a bit confused about this series thing.

I could not find any more information than you've said here.

This is surely interesting!

 

I thought I've saved that mentioned datasheet of the evolution of the series, but I can't find ti now

I remember there wasn't any further info, except the lettering and the retracing gold or non-retracing tips...

 

EDIT - Thanks to the OP for the excellent pics - its always easier discussing issues when there are excellent pics to analyse.

Thanks

 

Heres the Spreadsheet.

 

[mana]

Sorry for the late reply, took a while to compile it and do some additional research.

 

The naming conventions, i.e. first and second generation are by users only (rOtring never used any such) and they refer to rOtring product lines of rOtring 600 (aka. first gen) and rOtring Newton (aka. second gen, introduced in mid 90s').

 

The series naming convention in the Gottlieb pdf was created by himself to categorize the different makes and models of rOtring pens.

 

While I applaud his efforts the fact remains that he "neatly" bunches up three entirely different design generations to which he refers to as "basic variations of 600" (which they are not, rOtring never marketed them as such).

 

The different design generations (named the way rOtring marketed them) are:

 

- rOtring 600 : production began mid 80s', discontinued when rOtring Newton was introduced. Also includes the later introduced luxury line 600G with gold nibs, trimmings and retractable tip mechanism for mechanical pencils. Mechanical pencils of 600 and 600G line were later produced in Japan under license as the 600 and 800. The external appearance was true to the originals but new products were introduced (namely the 2mm clutch pencils) and the internal mechanisms (and also function) differed from the originals (I recall someone mentioning that the 600G and 800 series pens retraction mechanisms function in a slightly different way).

 

- rOtring Newton : the original 600 series re-engineered/updated (often referred to as rOtring 600 Newton). Launched mid 90s. Has both steel/chrome and gold/gold versions and also includes the later introduced Newton Lava. First recorded internet appearance can be found here > (

Apr 04, 1997

). It disappears from the rotring.de site in conjunction with the introduction of the new NEWTON, last recorded internet appearance >

Apr 18, 2006

.

 

- the 2006 introduced new NEWTON: Launched under Sanford ownership. That model has about as much to do with the first two generations as the VW New Beetle has with the original VW Beetle. First recorded internet appearance can be found here >

Jun 13, 2006

Now, if those series introduced by Gottlieb would be appropriately divided and linked to actual rOtring product names/lines it might actually be usable. More accurate dates & pictures would not hurt. There are also some intermediary models between the 600 and Newton that have the 600 body (knurlings, selectors and all) but they also have the Newton cap retaining studs in the section etc. So there is a lot that is missing from that pdf and a lot that is just his invention.

 

Thus I prefer to use to what had been used by rOtring or what has been long established by other users. Were the document corrected and amended in the way described above I would most likely have no problem using whatever naming conventions introduced there.

[attika89]

Thank you mana for your research!

I highly appreciate it!

 

I think the Gottlieb pdf is a good start, but it truly needs some correction...

 

What really interests me now is the 800...I was about to buy one before I got the 600s, but I've read that the retracing nib wobbles a bit...I don't know its true or not.

I had the chance a few weeks ago to hold a silver 600 with the gold retracing nib! It was gorgeous! The girl didn't even know what she was using! It was insane!

I told her its a wonderful pencil and I have 3 of it too, but not more because I'm still thinking of trying to buy it from her

We'll see...the 800 is still in my sight, and there is a sale on ebay...(0.5 + 2.0) for $135 or so....there is a 3 pack sale on the 600s as well....

Edited May 22, 2011 by attika89

[mana]

Thanks!

 

Wobbly tip > Yeah, have heard the same, the original ones (600G) had little or no play and hence no wobble, the japanese ones (800) are more loose but can be tweaked to reduce it.

 

Lovely series all in all even though not perfect mechanically... they just feel so precise, perfect and solid in hand... and the design!

 

Writing instruments that just cannot be dismissed.

[flight878]

flight878 - I agree with your observations regarding the "mm" in series 2 on the excel spreadsheet. My ebay link in post #5 bears this out. Also are you aware that the clip on the spring model is 36mm and the clip on the white sheath version is 34mm. Just another bit of difference.

 

Interesting observation. I just confirmed this on my Rotring BPs. The Series 1 black clip length (with the red Rotring 600 labeling) is 36 mm, and I have a silver Series 3 BP without the printing whose clip is 34 mm.

 

Now that you brought this up, for those Rotring 600 fans and curious collectors, here are some other aesthetic observations/inconsistencies about the series:

- The red ring on the black Series 1 Rotring 600s tends to have more of a pink hue compared to the silver models' red ring, which has more of an orange hue.

- On the 600 knurled ballpoints, the changing color bands on the viewer/color indicator are separated by a white line, but not always.

- On some 600s, the red ring comes loose, and eventually breaks off; on the German eBay, these still sell really well used (> EUR 50,00).

- The 600 BP and MPs were common corporate gifts, imprinted with the company logos, many of which have gone bankrupt or acquired - these have been tough to sell.

- The knurling is inconsistent among the FPs and RBs of the 600 series; a few featured the bumpy knurling of the consistent BP and MPs, while some had more of a flat knurling, particularly the rollerballs; the flat knurling was more common with the black FP and RB, and the silver and black Trio multi-pens.

- The color indicators on the rollerballs tend to be sloppy, likely made on a Friday one hour before punching out. The inner plastic material only had black and blue bands, but with strange perforations, and at times, a crack across.

[attika89]

Interesting observation. I just confirmed this on my Rotring BPs. The Series 1 black clip length (with the red Rotring 600 labeling) is 36 mm, and I have a silver Series 3 BP without the printing whose clip is 34 mm.

 

Same here: the first one's with the spring is 36 mm, the other two's are 34 mm...

 

 

- On some 600s, the red ring comes loose, and eventually breaks off; on the German eBay, these still sell really well used

 

- The knurling is inconsistent among the FPs and RBs of the 600 series; a few featured the bumpy knurling of the consistent BP and MPs, while some had more of a flat knurling, particularly the rollerballs; the flat knurling was more common with the black FP and RB, and the silver and black Trio multi-pens.

 

Funny. The red ring is loose on my newest, Japanese one....the other two are good...

 

As I know the knurling is flat on the retrackable gold tipped MPs as well...the one I've tried had a flat knurling too...

Edited May 22, 2011 by attika89

[flight878]

Now, if those series introduced by Gottlieb would be appropriately divided and linked to actual rOtring product names/lines it might actually be usable. More accurate dates & pictures would not hurt. There are also some intermediary models between the 600 and Newton that have the 600 body (knurlings, selectors and all) but they also have the Newton cap retaining studs in the section etc. So there is a lot that is missing from that pdf and a lot that is just his invention.

 

I will address some inaccuracies/holes in the Gottlieb Document, using his most recent Nov 2009 update of the spreadsheet.

 

Rotring 600 Pencil:

- Unsure if inaccurate, but would like some sort of confirmation on the Series 2 - I have never seen this version. Two German eBay sellers who regularly sell NOS 600s also informed me they've never seen these models.

- There is no Series 3 lava pencil; methinks this was just a typo. The Lava versions never had knurling.

 

Rotring 600 Ballpoint:

- There also exists a black ballpoint with gold retractable end; on the US eBay you can get one new for $455.00 today.

 

Rotring 600 Fountain Pen:

- There is no official Series 2 gold-end silver FP with a metal nib, unless the end-user replaced the nib or cap himself. There is one on sale now on the German eBay, but I strongly suspect this is a frankenpen where a stray gold cap was partnered with a barrel w/o the gold nib. Individual caps are often sold of the Series 1 models, understandably to replace old, worn-out caps that no longer fit tightly with the corresponding barrels. Hence the introduction of Series 2 spring-loaded pegs...

- Were there also Series 1 gold-nibbed pens w/o gold-tipped caps? I suspect another frankenpen.

- Like the Series 2, the Series 1 also had the same nib widths available.

 

Rotring 600 Rollerball:

- There exists a silver Series 1 knurled rollerball with the 'Rotring 600' inscription; one is on sale now on the US eBay.

- There exists a black and silver rollerball with gold tip and cap end, and the knurled grip; both versions are on sale on the US eBay now.

- Not to be confused with the Series 2 w/o the 'Rotring 600' inscription (which is regularly sold on the German eBay), there exists also a transition model in silver of the rollerball, like the FP. The transition model is between the 600 and the 600 Newton, where the knurling of the former is preserved, and the spring-loaded pegs on the grip of the latter is added.

 

Rotring 600 Trio Pen:

- There exists a knurled-grip version w/o the 'Rotring 600' inscription, both in black and silver. The silver version appears more often on German eBay listings, and a black was recently sold on the US eBay.

 

---------------------------

 

A few notes:

- The transition models of the FP and RBs have only been seen in silver, never black.

- Rotring 600 Frankenpens: Apart from the fountain pen, I've also seen 600 Series 3 BPs with the Rotring 600 Newton (non-knurled) conical grip sold on the US eBay, in addition to a Series 1 rollerball with a 600 Newton (non-knurled) grip sold on the German eBay, and then bought and resold by a US eBay seller for a very profitable price.

- The use of Series 1, 2, 3 jargon is used here only to be consistent with the Gottlieb Classification Scheme per the spreadsheet, but I prefer the official Rotring classification as pointed out by mana.

- The Series 1, 2, x jargon has also been used by many sellers on the German eBay, so either they've been perusing the relevant FPN threads, or this informal grouping originates from somewhere else.

Edited May 23, 2011 by flight878

[streeton]

I'm not hearing much more on the spring version of the series 1 versus the plastic white sheath version. Ostensibly the plastic white sheath version is really a series 2 with full red lettering - the section grip of the white plastic sheath series 1 will fit a series 2 (both the same) but not a spring version seres 1. I'll keep hammering on this one.

 

EDIT 1: - Andrey the ebay seller clearly understands the difference.

 

I believe that the grip sections are such a fundamental design difference (in fact as far as I'm aware, the only significant design difference across the 3 series) that the spring version warrants its own series naming (eg Original Spring Series) in a revised Gottlieb document - else how do we know which version of the series 1 we are buying - it certainly fooled me on my recent purchase and the seller certainly didn't tell me. This is important because it seems there are precious few if any replacement sections for the spring series.

 

I suppose we could now also ask the seller the clip length but I doubt they would be accurate enough in their response. I have a feeling the clip length was shortened on the plastic sheath models to maintain the balance point of the pencil - the spring being heavier and therefore having a longer clip to compensate at the top end and vice versa - just a theory mind you.

Edited May 23, 2011 by streeton

[attika89]

Just updating with a better picture for those who might be interested:

 

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6146/5933482054_3c24c5f73a_b.jpg