The Lost Art Of Writing

[kernando]

  On 5/6/2011 at 12:44 PM, Dino Silone said:

...

I'm not worried about that generation not being able to read the Declaration of Independence in the original cursive.

...

 

There are several generations of that. I once made it to the National Archives, and some guy with his kids was looking at a Constitution or a Declaration, and he asked about why it was spelled Congrefs. I told him it was a long s, and felt a little sorry for the kids.

 

[edit: cut out more quote]

Edited May 6, 2011 by kernando

[Shangas]

I was taught cursive in school ("joined up writing" us young'un's used to call it) and I just loved it. It was all swirly and fun.

 

And damnation and hellfire, I'll continue using cursive until I die.

[beak]

  On 5/6/2011 at 12:55 PM, Dino Silone said:

............................ than learning how to write prettily, especially since they're probably going to type almost everything they produce.

In a way, your use of the word 'prettily' instead of 'legibly' or 'in the quickest manner' makes me want to say QED, but I don't know if that's right. Sure, we all prioritize differently, and perhaps your kids are different to many, they certainly sound as though they're doing well. If cursive seems relatively unimportant to you, that's fair enough, but I see huge benefits in the early teaching of basic cursive; technical, social and academic. Out of interest, do your children have lessons in speed-typing - which would seem to be a good thing for anyone - I wish I had been taught better technique with a keyboard at school. I don't see the two things as mutually exclusive or necessarily competing for the same space in the school timetable.

 

I first began learning to join letters at the age of about six or seven, perhaps even earlier, and had cursive under my belt well before secondary school (your high (?) school) and for the few hours here and there of formal classwork at that age, I believe the rewards were well worth the time - of course, continual practise happened during all other subjects, and the corrections and odd bits of guidance that accommpianied each history or English essay did the rest.

 

I would never try to suggest that all today's children are lazy and misguided, but was really only banging on about a pet bugbear; that so many are being strenuously, and successful, encouraged to be so by the TV etc they absorb. I think this is a relatively new phenomena, and worth talking about and watching out for.

Edited May 7, 2011 by beak

[mstone]

  On 5/6/2011 at 11:00 PM, kernando said:

If it wasn't a joke, I'd have to tell the person to sound out the words, and failing that, I'd have to read along slowly.

 

What good would that do if the letterforms are unfamiliar? Do you read secretary hand or english chancery (different from the later italic/italian chancery) or even shorthand? (Consider something like the below; if the answer is yes, then you're more likely a scholar or an enthusiast rather than a member of the general public.) Writing systems evolve, and part of that process is to discard obsolete forms.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Shakespeare-Testament.jpg

 

  Quote

I'll take what you mean, but wording it as "original letterforms" opens up a lot of holes.

 

"Original" was probably a poor choice (what is "first" in a evolving process dating back thousands of years?)--I meant the form that people are usually taught first and which they read in books and on screen; "fundamental" would probably have been better. It's interesting to note that printed material by and large ignores 1000 years of handwriting evolution and reflects majuscules which were common in republican Rome and miniscules which aren't far off half uncials which predate the fall of the western empire. Why? Because those were just plain easier to read. Modification of those forms which were intended to maximize density on the page or speed of writing in volume just aren't relevant to most people in the 21st century and have no compelling reason to remain common knowledge.

 

  Quote

I'm sorry you have so many of these people to deal with that you have to dumb down your handwriting.

 

I fail to see why it is dumb to use a form developed for clarity when communicating with people for whom handwriting is increasingly nothing but an anachronism.

Edited May 7, 2011 by mstone

[beak]

Repeating myself, I think, but why is there such an air of mutual exclusivity going on here. I think people are just saying that cursive should not be indecipherable to anyone with a basic education, and that the tiny amount of time required to master that is worthwhile.

[JDR]

My grandchildren are being taught cursive in their school. My granddaughter is in first grade and she has been taught (just like my grandson was) to add a tail, or slight upswing at the end of each letter, except "P" and "R". Now in second grade, my grandson is being taught to link the letters together by extending the tail to form the next letter. Just like film, it will be a long time before cursive is dead!

[mstone]

  On 5/7/2011 at 1:45 AM, beak said:

Repeating myself, I think, but why is there such an air of mutual exclusivity going on here. I think people are just saying that cursive should not be indecipherable to anyone with a basic education, and that the tiny amount of time required to master that is worthwhile.

 

I understand that people are saying that, I just disagree. :-) Almost all the handwritten material I see these days is the stuff I write myself--it's just not common in my work environment. And I'm not exactly in an exotic workplace; it seems that electronic and printed communications are the norm around here, anyway. So even if it is taught to this generation in school it will end up being some half-remembered grade school lesson twenty years from now. Reading cursive is like any other mental skill, it will deteriorate if not used. I do find it somewhat odd that people can't even imagine that this is true. I suppose that's the result of being in a self selected group that tends to fiddle with archaic writing systems as a hobby, so they can't even imagine going years at a time without seeing any cursive writing?

[beak]

Perhaps you weren't addressing me directly, but I for one can imagine it very well, in fact imagining things is one of the things that I do for a living. I doubt that I'm in a minority.

 

Perhaps I mistake what you find odd that can't be imagined - that if cursive is not understood it will be forgotten because it is not used? That there could be decades between seeing written samples? Fairly easy ones. That there will be decades between seeing any handwritten text, I strongly doubt - but then many will not see what they can't understand; it may be mentally invisible.

 

The argument is that it is better for it to be introduced in schools, hence understood - even if only read. I find no lack of imagination in this, unless someone defines a contrary opinion as lack of imagination. I think someone wrote somewhere recently about that.

 

One of the most important points about not reading cursive is that it cuts one off from many primary sources. I should not like to be in the position of being unable to read Orwell manuscripts, for instance, for want of a little timetabling space when I was very young. Neither should I want to have my fathers logs and letters appear to me as so much Venusian.

 

 

Ps

Your example is of secretary hand (?) of several centuries ago. It ends, I think, 'In witness whereof I have hereunto put my seal hand the day and year first above written.'' This is a notoriously difficult hand to read.

Edited May 7, 2011 by beak

[Dino Silone]

  On 5/7/2011 at 1:34 AM, mstone said:

  On 5/6/2011 at 11:00 PM, kernando said:

If it wasn't a joke, I'd have to tell the person to sound out the words, and failing that, I'd have to read along slowly.

 

What good would that do if the letterforms are unfamiliar? Do you read secretary hand or english chancery (different from the later italic/italian chancery) or even shorthand? (Consider something like the below; if the answer is yes, then you're more likely a scholar or an enthusiast rather than a member of the general public.) Writing systems evolve, and part of that process is to discard obsolete forms.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Shakespeare-Testament.jpg

 

  Quote

I'll take what you mean, but wording it as "original letterforms" opens up a lot of holes.

 

"Original" was probably a poor choice (what is "first" in a evolving process dating back thousands of years?)--I meant the form that people are usually taught first and which they read in books and on screen; "fundamental" would probably have been better. It's interesting to note that printed material by and large ignores 1000 years of handwriting evolution and reflects majuscules which were common in republican Rome and miniscules which aren't far off half uncials which predate the fall of the western empire. Why? Because those were just plain easier to read. Modification of those forms which were intended to maximize density on the page or speed of writing in volume just aren't relevant to most people in the 21st century and have no compelling reason to remain common knowledge.

 

  Quote

I'm sorry you have so many of these people to deal with that you have to dumb down your handwriting.

 

I fail to see why it is dumb to use a form developed for clarity when communicating with people for whom handwriting is increasingly nothing but an anachronism.

+1

 

Nostalgia is fun, when kept in perspective. When it becomes militant,... not so much.

[nicholasyeo]

Cursive handwriting is lovely!

[mstone]

  On 5/7/2011 at 1:09 PM, beak said:

Perhaps I mistake what you find odd that can't be imagined - that if cursive is not understood it will be forgotten because it is not used? That there could be decades between seeing written samples? Fairly easy ones. That there will be decades between seeing any handwritten text, I strongly doubt - but then many will not see what they can't understand; it may be mentally invisible.

 

No, I find it odd that people can't imagine that there are people right now who rarely if ever see handwritten documents, are years out of practice for reading such documents, and aren't particularly interested in reviving such skills. The have other priorities and other things to do. They're not stupid, they're not lazy, they simply don't care about deciphering documents written in cursive handwriting. My thoughts are addressed mainly at the idea that it's risible that someone can't decipher cursive, or that there's something wrong with people who aren't interested in doing so.

 

  Quote

One of the most important points about not reading cursive is that it cuts one off from many primary sources. I should not like to be in the position of being unable to read Orwell manuscripts, for instance, for want of a little timetabling space when I was very young. Neither should I want to have my fathers logs and letters appear to me as so much Venusian.

 

People who are interested in doing so will spend the time and effort to learn to do so, the same way that people who want to read cuneiform do today. Most people don't, and it doesn't impoverish their lives that they do not. For the record, I'm not convinced that mandatory cuneiform classes are justified, either.

 

  Quote

Your example is of secretary hand (?) of several centuries ago. It ends, I think, 'In witness whereof I have hereunto put my seal hand the day and year first above written.'' This is a notoriously difficult hand to read.

 

See, there will always be people who learn esoteric skills. It would be a boring world if everyone were the same.

[HDoug]

My friend's college age son can read my conjoined italic but not his mom's schoolbook Palmer. The loopy letters are unfamiliar and present too much of a challenge to the kind of quick recognition required of reading (as opposed to deciphering). It's a shame, but I don't know what we should do about it...

 

Doug

[Moagy]

I learnt cursive, I still write cursive (though a handwriting expert would do this: if they saw it, because it has transformed itself through writing at speed over the years into...well I don't what you'd call it - messy?!). I am so glad I learnt however, because it means that I can at least a hazard a guess at what has been written when I look at the original archive documents to do with my family's genealogy - census forms, birth, marriage and death certificates for instance.

 

I can't alway read it first time, but if I stare at the word long enough usually it comes to me what has been written. Quite often my sense of satisfaction is enhanced because it was difficult, and not for the world would I trade that in to get it in a more accessible but not original format. I've seen my great great grandparents signatures! I've seen the truly shocking report on one of my ancestors who applied for Poor Relief and was turned down in what, to me, is a horribly callous way, written by someone who actually saw her and heard her. History comes alive before me because I am able to read the words as they were written down at the time. What a gift! I would not deny this to the next generation for all the tea in China, I hope cursive never dies.

 

Morag

 

PS - I watched a tv programme about Nelson's Navy tonight - I'm interested in the subject anyway because I have a somewhat Naval background, but blow me down, did I not spend a large proportion of the programme just admiring the writing in the ships logs about the various people the programme was talking about? And actually, when I come to think of it, as a lot of the logs were shown in close up as illustration, there was an assumption on the part of the programme makers that those watching would be able to read what they could see!

[kernando]

  On 5/7/2011 at 9:04 PM, HDoug said:

My friend's college age son can read my conjoined italic but not his mom's schoolbook Palmer. The loopy letters are unfamiliar and present too much of a challenge to the kind of quick recognition required of reading (as opposed to deciphering). It's a shame, but I don't know what we should do about it...

 

Doug

 

He had to have at least one year of learning cursive in elementary school, so what style did they teach? I think of Palmer as being only one step loopier than the D'Nealian my district used, and of basic cursive as being a step away from joined up Italic but with a few different letters. How did he grow up not being able to read notes from his mom?

 

Does he want penpals? The vast majority here would practice their cursive on him.

[beak]

  On 5/7/2011 at 7:27 PM, mstone said:

..........

 

No, I find it odd that people can't imagine that there are people right now who rarely if ever see handwritten documents, are years out of practice for reading such documents, and aren't particularly interested in reviving such skills. The have other priorities and other things to do. They're not stupid, they're not lazy, they simply don't care about deciphering documents written in cursive handwriting. My thoughts are addressed mainly at the idea that it's risible that someone can't decipher cursive, or that there's something wrong with people who aren't interested in doing so.

 

.....................

One of us is going round in circles and not listening - that's a sure sign to leave off. But I agree on the last point - I for one merely said that it would be better that they did, not that they were stupid or any of that - I did, however, note that their choices were being restricted, their interests sculpted, how I thought this was happening, and why I disliked it.

[ethernautrix]

All I know for sure is that my mother looks dismayed whenever I curse, so I am careful with my language around her.

 

And around most people, except in traffic.

[ethernautrix]

Oh! Cursive.... Never mind. I cursive a lot.

[HDoug]

  On 5/7/2011 at 10:18 PM, kernando said:

...

How did he grow up not being able to read notes from his mom?

 

Well, that is a question for all eras. And a happy Mother's Day to all.

 

Doug

[encremental]

As handwriting is part of the national curriculum in the UK, and is scored in SATs (which concentrates a school's mind wonderfully) cursive is still taught everywhere, although styles and methods have never been prescribed.

 

What is interesting is that a current popular way of teaching handwriting (in maybe 20% of schools) is for children to begin joining letters right from the start, so that they never learn how to print !. Obviously, they use capital letters where appropriate, but the muscle memory is trained for cursive. Although a teacher myself, my charges are three and four, so our formal mark making is more to do with pattern than correct letter formation (ball and stick, zigzags etc) and our school doesn't subscribe to this system. A friend of mine does teach it however, and she reports that children particularly enjoy writing the ligatures, which they call 'kicks' mainly because they are encouraged to shout 'kick!' as they write them. I don't like to think about the noise, but then she does have a fairly small class ...

 

Thinking about skills which appear and disappear as needed, do you remember that period of a couple of years after mobile phones came on the scene, but before predictive text became widespread? Teenagers quickly learnt the complex patterns of button pressing needed to send a message almost at the speed of speech. Easily as complex as those needed to make fine lace by hand, I would imagine. All gone - firstly with the rise of predictive text, and now touch screens, which have bred a new sort of one handed 'hunt and peck'.

 

John

[kernando]

  On 5/8/2011 at 3:59 AM, HDoug said:

  On 5/7/2011 at 10:18 PM, kernando said:

...

How did he grow up not being able to read notes from his mom?

 

Well, that is a question for all eras. And a happy Mother's Day to all.

 

Doug

 

On the latter, indeed, to all the mothers at least. On the former, we are taking being able to read a note from Mom as separate from actually heeding it, right? Oh well, maybe she'll have to leave off so many leading/connecting strokes to leave him to focus on the downstrokes until he picks it back up. I am a fan of both italic nibs and round flexible nibs for giving greater line weight to downstrokes.