Is Gray Ink Just Very Diluted Black Ink?

[Chiro75]

Went to the local pen shop here in Kansas City looking for Noodler's #41 (which they didn't have) and, naturally, I walked out of there with a bottle of Noodler's Blue Black, Noodler's Golden Brown and Private Reserve Gray Flannel. Ridiculous!

 

Anyway, I LOVE the Gray Flannel, particularly with a broadish (2968) nib and a silver/gray Esterbrook SJ that matches the ink color perfectly!

 

I got to thinking, though... is gray ink just very diulted black ink? I'm guessing it isn't, but I'm curious what the composition differences are, etc. I mean, it'd be great to just be able to buy some Noodler's Black and water it down until it was gray, but I'm guessing it's not that easy...

[RainbowBright]

I can't answer your question, but shout out to a fellow KC resident! Do you go to the pen store at Crown Center?

[Chiro75]

Yep, that's the one. I don't know of any others, do you? It's a nice little shop, but I'm a vintage pen guy, so I just get my ink supplies there. It's a royal PITA to deal with Crown Center, parking, etc, but I prefer to support local businesses whenever possible, so it's worth the hassle.

[desertsquid]

Black ink is ink that does not reflect light of any colour. To make black ink grey, you'd need to make it reflect more light of all colours, as evenly as possible. So the thing to add to it would be white ink, if such a thing exists. I add about 25% water to one of my favourite black inks to make it flow better. But it does not affect the colour.

 

I suppose if you diluted it to the point that the (white) paper showed through the ink, you might get a slight grey effect.

[beak]

No expert in inks, but I think white added to black is not the only option.

 

Grey can be made by adding to any colour its exact complimentary - one can make a grey from a mixture of red, blue, and yellow, for instance, if the balance is perfect. In theory, one should be able to make black from these as well, but impurities prevent this in practice, I believe.

 

However, I'm not sure how internal light reflection and the nature of dyes, as opposed to pigments, effect the issue.

[Lorna Reed]

I thought that grey ink would look like watered down black ink, until I bought a bottle of Iroshizuku Kiri-same. I use it in my Sheaffer Royal Selangor pewter pen and its a great combination.

[ticoun]

no. most black inks look blue or purple when diluted. some will look gray, but the saturation is not great enough to be used for writing.

[Possum Hill]

I can't shed any light on the composition of gray ink, but I can recommend Noodler's Lexington Gray.

[notgiven]

I don't know, but some black ink look grey already as is.

[xiewadu]

I would think that chromatography tests could help determine how close they are.

- Jen

[Sandy1]

Hi,

 

I don't use Black ink in FPs, but I have done dilutions on Blue inks.

 

With a typical dye-based ink, the colour / tone becomes uneven - and that's not shading. Also the lack of lubrication becomes intolerable for other than the mot determined writer. (Private Reserve American Blue - Dilution: 100, 80, 66 & 40% https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/180919-dilution-private-reserve-americam-blue/#entry1820459)

 

So if one looks at a very pale Blue, which appears to be made from pale dyestuff, the lubrication, shading, etc are all wonderful. (Herbin, Bleu Azur https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/163998-herbin-bleu-azur/)

 

However, I diluted the Sailor nano Bl-Bk [sic] down to 10% and it looked fine, and ran well. Quite a shocker! (Diluted with water and Noodler's Whiteness of the Whale, are depicted here: My link)

 

So, if you were to pursue ink dilution to get a Grey, then I suggest trying a nano particle Black, of which I think there are several 'versions'. e.g. Platinum carbon ink.

 

I do agree with prior posts about dye-based Black not being so very neutral: the colour plays a significant role in our perception of 'richness', zero reflected light, etc.

 

Bye,

S1

[vela]

No, PR's Gray Flannel is not diluted black. -I have Gray Flannel. Love it. I think if you were to significantly dilute black, and write with it, then compare it to Gray Flannel, you would see a difference. Gray Flannel also has some interesting undertones.

 

So, Crown Center... My mom lives over that way. Now I know where to direct her when she asks what I want for my birthday, etc.

[zhangvict]

There is no such thing as a white dye. Dye based inks work by darkening the paper and coloring and darkening the reflected light off the white background of the paper. If you want a white color in ink, you will need a pigment based ink with small particles.

 

I think as a general rule, if your grey ink looks black inside the bottle, then it is a dye based color. Pigment inks look opaque, so a pigment grey ink will look like grey milk in the bottle.

 

I think most grey inks is simply black ink with alot less dye, reducing the darkening effect on the paper background. All the other chemicals that give the ink flow and lubrication are the same. Iroshizuku Kri Same and J herbin Gris nuage both look black while in the bottle, hence they are dye based. The reason they look black is that there is enough grey ink inside the bottle to completely darken it, suggesting that a more saturated grey ink (i.e. black ink) can achieve the same effect but with less volume of liquid.

 

Some blacks ink become brownish or bluish when diluted because they are not pure blacks to begin with. The blacks are slightly colored blue or brown, but it is already so dark that you cannot see much of a difference. Hence when diluted, it becomes light enough t tell.

 

Iroshizuku Fyo Snogan is a bluish grey, so I think it is a diluted version of a slightly blueish black color. Herbin Gris nuage is also blueish, but less so. Since Quink Black is a blusih black, I think if you dilute it down to a maybe a 15% ink/water mix, you get nearly the same color as Gris Nuage. The lubrication and flow can be replaced by adding a very very very tiny amount of liquid detergent, and the antibacterial properties can be re-fortified by adding a similar tiny amount of water based soluble dye-safe disinfectant. I do not know exactly how ink is made so take it with a grain of salt, but I think this is basically what most inks are made of.

 

I've also done experiments with mixing/diluting my own inks and have been successful at creating grey ink that still lubricates and dosen't grow mouldy, though I don't have a bottle of branded 'official' grey ink to compare it with.

[psfred]

Gray is not diluted black, it is the base fluid (water, flow modifiers, surfactants, and so forth) will less dye, and possibly not the same dye or dye mixture, as the manufacturer's black ink.

 

One cannot make gray ink by diluting black ink unless the dilution fluid is dye free base ink. Water alone, especially tap water, will change the writing character of the ink considerably.

 

Peter

[jgrasty]

Diamine Grey, my only gray ink, definitely is not watered down black. Very nice ink, in fact.

[zhangvict]

What I meant was that grey ink is basically a less saturated black ink, i.e. same as black but with less black dye to make it look grey. So the color of grey in grey ink is a diluted color of black.

[jgrasty]

What I meant was that grey ink is basically a less saturated black ink, i.e. same as black but with less black dye to make it look grey. So the color of grey in grey ink is a diluted color of black.

 

Diamine Grey isn't a less saturated black ink, instead, it is a gray colored ink. Try a sample, you will like it.

[scribbler77]

Black ink is ink that does not reflect light of any colour. To make black ink grey, you'd need to make it reflect more light of all colours, as evenly as possible. So the thing to add to it would be white ink, if such a thing exists. I add about 25% water to one of my favourite black inks to make it flow better. But it does not affect the colour.

 

I suppose if you diluted it to the point that the (white) paper showed through the ink, you might get a slight grey effect.

 

I have not tried diluting one of Noodler's blacks with Whiteness of the Whale, but that combination should produce a gray. It definitely produces pastels of other colors. I don't know whether WotW is dye or particle based, but if the latter, the particles do not settle in my bottle.

[zhangvict]

What I meant was that grey ink is basically a less saturated black ink, i.e. same as black but with less black dye to make it look grey. So the color of grey in grey ink is a diluted color of black.

 

Diamine Grey isn't a less saturated black ink, instead, it is a gray colored ink. Try a sample, you will like it.

 

 

I don't think you understand. Grey is not a color by itself like red, green or orange.

 

For example J Herbin Bleu Pervenche is a pure cyan color.

J Herbin Diablo Menthe is also a pure cyan color.

 

They are both inks by themselves, with adequate flow, lubrication etc. They even have the same color. The only difference is that Diablo Menthe has less dye content than Blue Pervenche. If you swab test Diablo Menthe a few times on the same spot and swab Bleu Pervenche once next to it, you see thay are the same color. Hence a very wet nib with Diablo Menthe will look the same as Bleu Pervenche on a less wet nib.

 

Same with most Black inks I am pretty sure. Grey and Black are the SAME type of color (if you call black a color). With dyes, the saturation alter what the ink looks like as well as the type of color. Write grey in a very very wet nib, and it will look the same as black in a dry nib. You cannot just get a grey 'colored' dye because the color is always relative to how much of the dye you use. Bleu pervenche can produce infinite different shades of cyan, just by carefully controlling the amount of ink on the paper. Diablo Menthe can also do that, except to achieve the same precise shade, you need more of it than Bleu Pervenche.

 

Imagine a bottle of food coloring. It is RED, but inside the bottle it looks so dark that you think it is black. In fact it is actually very dark red. Now you spread it out by adding 2 drops of it to a glass of water. It not looks compleatly different, a much lighter color. However, you must understand that the colors in the glass of water and the color in the food coloring bottle are EXACTLY the same type of color. Red is a whole spectrum of different colors, not just 1 shade.

 

Same with grey. Grey is just part of the spectrum of black (lol the irony). DIamiane grey has shading, no? if it can produce variabe shades of grey depending on the amount of ink on the paper, then it can make a black color (you can think of this as the darkest shade of grey) by just simply having lots in one place.

 

Hence color wise, I strongly believe dye based grey inks are less saturated dye versions of black inks. Jgrasty, if you think diamiane grey is a color by itself, seperate from black inks and the black spectrum, can you explain exactly how?

[jgrasty]

What I meant was that grey ink is basically a less saturated black ink, i.e. same as black but with less black dye to make it look grey. So the color of grey in grey ink is a diluted color of black.

 

Diamine Grey isn't a less saturated black ink, instead, it is a gray colored ink. Try a sample, you will like it.

 

 

I don't think you understand. Grey is not a color by itself like red, green or orange.

 

For example J Herbin Bleu Pervenche is a pure cyan color.

J Herbin Diablo Menthe is also a pure cyan color.

 

They are both inks by themselves, with adequate flow, lubrication etc. They even have the same color. The only difference is that Diablo Menthe has less dye content than Blue Pervenche. If you swab test Diablo Menthe a few times on the same spot and swab Bleu Pervenche once next to it, you see thay are the same color. Hence a very wet nib with Diablo Menthe will look the same as Bleu Pervenche on a less wet nib.

 

Same with most Black inks I am pretty sure. Grey and Black are the SAME type of color (if you call black a color). With dyes, the saturation alter what the ink looks like as well as the type of color. Write grey in a very very wet nib, and it will look the same as black in a dry nib. You cannot just get a grey 'colored' dye because the color is always relative to how much of the dye you use. Bleu pervenche can produce infinite different shades of cyan, just by carefully controlling the amount of ink on the paper. Diablo Menthe can also do that, except to achieve the same precise shade, you need more of it than Bleu Pervenche.

 

Imagine a bottle of food coloring. It is RED, but inside the bottle it looks so dark that you think it is black. In fact it is actually very dark red. Now you spread it out by adding 2 drops of it to a glass of water. It not looks compleatly different, a much lighter color. However, you must understand that the colors in the glass of water and the color in the food coloring bottle are EXACTLY the same type of color. Red is a whole spectrum of different colors, not just 1 shade.

 

Same with grey. Grey is just part of the spectrum of black (lol the irony). DIamiane grey has shading, no? if it can produce variabe shades of grey depending on the amount of ink on the paper, then it can make a black color (you can think of this as the darkest shade of grey) by just simply having lots in one place.

 

Hence color wise, I strongly believe dye based grey inks are less saturated dye versions of black inks. Jgrasty, if you think diamiane grey is a color by itself, seperate from black inks and the black spectrum, can you explain exactly how?

 

I'm not looking at the ink from a spectral standpoint; you are very likely correct that it is made of multiple colors, unless there is a gray colored dye. When you say that the ink is a less saturated version of black, you are wrong. The ink is as saturated as any other colored ink. Try a sample and then you will understand.

 

Let me try to explain this way. If you take a black ink and add water, you don't get a gray ink, instead, you get a less saturated black ink. It is still **black**, not gray.

 

Let me try another way. I'm saying that the dyes in a black ink are different than the dyes in a gray ink. For example, if I take a drop of black ink and drop it into a sink full of water, it still looks black as it slowly desaturates in the sink (some blacks do this, others look bluish or brownish). If I take a drop of gray ink into a sink of water, it still looks gray.

 

Get a sample and try it yourself instead of speculating.

Edited April 22, 2011 by jgrasty