Pelikan 4001 Blue - Black

[Bo Bo Olson]

Richard said a good blue black ink needs a full day to finish it's change.

With ESSR that depended on the paper. Some turned quickly, some took two days.

 

 

I believe but would not bet a beer on it, that Waterman Blue Black keeps it's blue. I think I remember reading that and moving my Waterman Blue-black out of the Cobweb corner too.

 

But I have way too many pens inked again. So both of those blue blacks (Pel.&Waterman) will have to wait.

[P.A.R.]

Richard said a good blue black ink needs a full day to finish it's change.

With ESSR that depended on the paper. Some turned quickly, some took two days.

 

 

I believe but would not bet a beer on it, that Waterman Blue Black keeps it's blue. I think I remember reading that and moving my Waterman Blue-black out of the Cobweb corner too.

 

But I have way too many pens inked again. So both of those blue blacks (Pel.&Waterman) will have to wait.

Are Blue-Black inks supposed to fade to gray/black?! That doesn't seem like a "good" quality to me.

[Sandy1]

Richard said a good blue black ink needs a full day to finish it's change.

With ESSR that depended on the paper. Some turned quickly, some took two days.

 

I believe but would not bet a beer on it, that Waterman Blue Black keeps it's blue.

✂ snip ✂

 

Richard said a good blue black ink needs a full day to finish it's change.

✂ snip ✂

Are Blue-Black inks supposed to fade to gray/black?! That doesn't seem like a "good" quality to me.

 

Hi,

 

I've not come across that statement by Richard (Binder?), so I do not know its context; but it would seem that the reference is to BlBk iron-gall inks, most of which will change density & appearance over time as the Blue dye fades and the I-G component of the ink oxidises and reacts to the constituents of the paper.

 

As Pelikan BlBk and Waterman BlBk are not known to contain [significant amounts] of iron-gall*, any change of appearance would be limited to that of the dyes which constitute the colour of the ink. As each dye may react differently, there may be colour shift over time - not just the initial settling of the ink onto the paper. (China Blue is known to change density in the near-term.)

 

So if an unstable Blue dye is used in a Blue-Black ink, then the ink colour may shift to gray-black over time. pH of the paper, exposure to light, etc. may also influence the process.

 

Bye,

S1

 

- - - -

* See http://www.fountainp...47#entry2232647

Edited February 10, 2012 by Sandy1

[Tweel]

Pelikan Blue-Black seems to be affected a lot by paper composition. In the last few days, I've happened to look at a few things that were written a year or more ago with this ink. On Tops index cards, it's remained the same blue-black as when written. On Southworth 100% cotton Resumé paper, it's turned solid black. And on Ampad Gold Fibre planning pad paper, it's faded to silvery ghost-writing. The unaffected Tops writing has been continuously exposed to light, and the faded Ampad writing has been continuously in the dark.

 

-- Brian

[Sandy1]

Pelikan Blue-Black seems to be affected a lot by paper composition. In the last few days, I've happened to look at a few things that were written a year or more ago with this ink. On Tops index cards, it's remained the same blue-black as when written. On Southworth 100% cotton Resumé paper, it's turned solid black. And on Ampad Gold Fibre planning pad paper, it's faded to silvery ghost-writing. The unaffected Tops writing has been continuously exposed to light, and the faded Ampad writing has been continuously in the dark.

 

-- Brian

Hello Brian,

 

Many thanks for sharing your experience with this ink over time, and ID-ing the specific papers.

 

I must say that I am taken aback by the change on the Southworth 100% cotton Résumé paper - I would have thought that to be stable/neutral/archival.

 

Then again, the useful lifespan of a CV is about two months; as is a Plan. So the Tops index cards, which may be for an enduring set of records, the performance suits the intended use. Cool.

 

Bye,

S1

[Toolattack]

Another great review Sandy1, thanks.

[Tweel]

I must say that I am taken aback by the change on the Southworth 100% cotton Résumé paper - I would have thought that to be stable/neutral/archival.

It explicitly says so on the box, but this is the second thing I've noticed that suggests that the printer-friendly sizing (perhaps) can be reactive in some way. Either they're splitting hairs ("Anything on the surface will fall off, but the substrate will last forever."), or any oddities don't affect its longevity.

 

So the Tops index cards, which may be for an enduring set of records, the performance suits the intended use. Cool.

That is nice -- another surprise.

 

-- Brian

[Sandy1]

Another great review Sandy1, thanks.

Hi,

 

You're welcome!

 

Bye,

S1

[Sandy1]

I must say that I am taken aback by the change on the Southworth 100% cotton Résumé paper - I would have thought that to be stable/neutral/archival.

It explicitly says so on the box, but this is the second thing I've noticed that suggests that the printer-friendly sizing (perhaps) can be reactive in some way. Either they're splitting hairs ("Anything on the surface will fall off, but the substrate will last forever."), or any oddities don't affect its longevity.

 

✂ snip ✂

 

-- Brian

Hi,

 

Thanks for the extra info about the Southworth. I think you may be right about the 'printer-friendly sizing' reacting with the dyes. Typically, a pure cotton [rag] paper is a bit fuzzy - with an open surface and/or soft hand. I thought the Southworth might be calendered at very high pressure to achieve a smooth printer-friendly surface, but perhaps not. I had considered purchasing a ream of that paper next time I was stateside, but not if it has a reactive ingredient.

 

Thanks again for the heads-up!

 

Bye,

S1

[Phormula]

Well, this ink turned me absolutely crazy. :bonk:

 

 

When I bought my first cartridges it was EXACTLY like in Sandy's beautiful review. Wow, since I suffer from a severe case of BBAD (Blue-Black Affective Disorder), and given the fact that this ink was well behaving in almost all my pens, I decided to dedicate a pen in my rotation to Pelikan BB!

 

Then, from time to time I found myself loading the pen with the same blue-black cartridges (albeit bought in different locations) but endig with a more or less dark, more or less bluish or greenish gray... :bonk:

I've read a lot of stories about Pelikan BB variability, well, now I can proof it.

 

The two examples have been written with the same pen (Markiaro Gaiola T, Medium nib) on the same paper (Rhodia). The only difference is that the cartridge comes from two different boxes of Pelikan Blue-Black, bought on the same day but in different stores of the same town. The difference speaks for itself, and to make things worse, it is not possible to tell the cartridges apart, they look exactly the same, and the ones that give the greysh color, do not show any sign of adulteration or deposit. The only way to tell which is which is to fill the pen.

 

 

I have no idea of what is happening, seems either that this ink suffers from great batch to batch variability or that is very sensitive to storage conditions. I have experienced more or less all the shades in between, including a really dull green-gray. So, if you happen to bounce into Pelikan BB and it is not like in Sandy's review, you can decide to give this ink a second chance (or a third one), by buying a new sample in a different location.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Phormula

[The Good Captain]

I've only ever used bottles of the stuff - 'font ink' - so I've no idea about the contents of the cartridges. Perhaps some are blanks.

[Phormula]

So far I am using only one bottle, compared to more than 50 cartridge boxes, so I cannot say if this variability is in bottled ink too. For sure, in bottled ink it is far easier to spot.

[Sandy1]

Well, this ink turned me absolutely crazy. :bonk:

 

 

When I bought my first cartridges it was EXACTLY like in Sandy's beautiful review. Wow, since I suffer from a severe case of BBAD (Blue-Black Affective Disorder), and given the fact that this ink was well behaving in almost all my pens, I decided to dedicate a pen in my rotation to Pelikan BB!

 

Then, from time to time I found myself loading the pen with the same blue-black cartridges (albeit bought in different locations) but endig with a more or less dark, more or less bluish or greenish gray... :bonk:

I've read a lot of stories about Pelikan BB variability, well, now I can proof it.

 

The two examples have been written with the same pen (Markiaro Gaiola T, Medium nib) on the same paper (Rhodia). The only difference is that the cartridge comes from two different boxes of Pelikan Blue-Black, bought on the same day but in different stores of the same town. The difference speaks for itself, and to make things worse, it is not possible to tell the cartridges apart, they look exactly the same, and the ones that give the greysh color, do not show any sign of adulteration or deposit. The only way to tell which is which is to fill the pen.

 

. . . ✄

I have no idea of what is happening, seems either that this ink suffers from great batch to batch variability or that is very sensitive to storage conditions. I have experienced more or less all the shades in between, including a really dull green-gray. So, if you happen to bounce into Pelikan BB and it is not like in Sandy's review, you can decide to give this ink a second chance (or a third one), by buying a new sample in a different location.

Hi,

 

Many thanks for adding clear examples of the naughty PBlBk: caught in the act, so to speak.

 

I've yet to encounter ink such as you've depicted, and that's after years of use, with ink purchased in many places, in both cartridge and bottle, and kept in less than ideal conditions when I'm in the field.

 

I would be driven to distraction if occurrence of the defective ink was totally random. e.g. One cartridge in a box sort of thing, as opposed to all cartridges in a box: Russian Roulette?

 

To my way of thinking, such a random occurrence indicates that a bad batch has not entered the market - the defective ink would be more widespread, and be in both cartridge and bottle.

 

I am curious about the characteristics of the defective ink: Flow, water resistance, line quality, smell, clarity, etc.

 

As mentioned in the Review proper, I suggest contacting Pelikan in Germany to arrange sending them a sample for investigation, including the cartridge itself. (Perhaps send them a link to your preceeding Post?)

 

About the only thing I can suggest that may be of value is to pierce the cartridge, then sample the ink prior to use. That would avoid flushing the ink from the pen, and colour variation in what's written. If the defective ink is sound enough to use, it might be salvaged by adding to the heel taps.

 

:hmm1:

 

Bye,

S1

Edited December 31, 2012 by Sandy1

[Phormula]

Hi Sandy,

the phenomenon is totally random. As I said, I cannot comment for bottled ink, because I have used one single bottle insofar (for my kind of writing while travelling, the convenience of cartridges is hard to beat). I have observed the phenomenon in cartridges.

What I have noticed so far:

 

The "good" and "bad" cartridges are totally indistinguishable, boxes and cartridges look exactly the same. No way to tell before trying...

The "bad" cartridges are not "older" than the "good" ones. Due to water vapour permeability, storage leads to a decrease in the volume of ink inside a cartridge, i.e. increase of the headspace (air) volume. When compared, "good" and "bad" cartridges look "fresh" exactly the same, i.e. they have the same tight headspace, indicating that they have not been around for that much time.

All the cartridges in the same box are of the same quality, either "good" or "bad". This supports either a batch production or a storage issue.

The phenomenon is quite "black and white", either the ink is OK, or it is a more or less greenish gray. I have not found intermediate shades of blue.

Apart from color, all other properties of the ink are OK. No deposit and perfect flow.

 

The most logical personal conclusion I can draw from the elements I have is that either something went wrong with the blue component of the ink, or such component is sensitive to degradation and it does if cartridges are mishandles. Heat could be the reason, but also freezing could be an explanation. However, this is my opinion only.

 

It would be interesting to see what happens to a Pelikan BB sample when heated to high temperature or frozen.

 

For me this is a real pity, Pelikan BB was a good and affordable BB available in cartridges all around Europe, but I cannot turn myself into a quality control guy for each box. I will continue to use it in bottles, but as far as cartidges are considered, once I have ended my stocks, I will turn to some other BB. Unfortunately there are not that much choices of BBs in cartridges and the choice is even lower if a "reasonable price" is included in the equation (a box of 6 Pelikan BB comes for less than 1.5$ in Europe, one of Mont Blanc is 3X the price). I am experimenting with Kaweco BB, looks like a well behaved ink, we'll see...

[wastelanded]

"Reminiscent of a business suit cut from heavy wool-silk with slightly narrow lapels."

 

Yes. Cut by an old, wise tailor, a cut that is never in fashion yet never out of style.

[The Good Captain]

"Reminiscent of a business suit cut from heavy wool-silk with slightly narrow lapels."

 

Yes. Cut by an old, wise tailor, a cut that is never in fashion yet never out of style.

A nice comment.

[Bo Bo Olson]

A box of BB was given to me. It has a white cap...my old.....old in I've had it longer has a black cap.

 

I just noticed the bottle of 4001 Green I bought on sale has a white cap. The rest of my Pelikan inks are all black topped.

 

When did Pelikan use white caps?

 

All the older bottles at this or that antique junk shops I didn't buy....basically because they were empty....had black caps.

 

Now some day, I'll have to compare white and black capped Pelikan BB.

It only makes sense to do all the ones I own from other companies too....and they sneak up on ya.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Bo Bo Olson

[zoli]

I've asked Pelikan why the blue-black is out of the US market and I've received the following answer from Chartpak Inc:

 

"Pelikan Germany forwarded to Chartpak Inc., we are their North American Distributors, the blue/black ink hasn't been in our market place for a number of years and yes it is due to testing. Testing in Europe differs from North America and can make the difference in passing, it isn't necessarily about it being 'toxic' but passing all requirements at certain levels. It this time Germany is not changing their formula, no.

Testing is becoming more important in all products, but with inks and art products it can be difficult as what may give a product a strong or unique color may make it fail a testing requirement level. These tests tend to want lower and lower numbers to pass and can cause product removal from the market place if a sub is not found.

Example Pelikan makes a very nice gold and silver water color pan, can't sell in US, but passes in Europe, they made a sub for our market which is more a tan and grey/silver not nearly as gold/silver as original."

[amberleadavis]

Thank you for the update.

[swafran]

Sorry to post in an old thread, I just want to pick up on The Good Captain and Phormula's discussion on variation in this ink. My photo is not high quality so I didn't want to do a full shootout review or start a new thread, but I think this could be useful to someone

 

About bottles for piston pens: there is a huge difference between the old bottles of 4001 blue-black (dark blue label) and the newly produced ones (grey label with an ink swirl on it).

 

The new 4001 blue-black is much more purple. You can see this right away, when you open the bottle and look at the inside of the cap, or look at the smears on empty parts of the bottle, it looks more purple than anything else. In the old blue-black this would look very blue and grey.

 

It's still a good ink, but it's not the old variety. The color is different, and you don't get the same gradation the old one is famous for.