Pen Lengths

[penspouse]

I like shorter pens (5" or under). What I find interesting is the difference posting, or not posting, a pen will make in length. I lined up several of my shorter pens capped, uncapped and posted. I found this very interesting. Thought you might as well. The pens are named below the pictures.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. Waterman 3V

2. Parker Duofold Jr

3. Mabie Todd Swallow

4. Sailor Sapporo

5. Pelikan M200 – Telekom

6. Pelikan 100n

7. Parker "51" Plum Demi

8. Conklin Endura

9. Sheaffer Clipless Tuckaway

10. Pilot Prera

11. Taccia Portuguese – Cracked Ice

12. Petite Sheaffer Balance

13. Pilot Custom 98

14. Imperial

15. Sheaffer 325

16. Sheaffer Jr Flat top

17. Sheaffer 875

18. Eversharp Skyline Demi

Edited April 4, 2011 by penspouse

[markiv]

This is definitely interesting. I wonder if there is a pen made per the Golden Ratio; (a+B)/b = a/b

I think a could be the barrel length and b equaling the section + nib length.

[lapis]

+1 on that!

A lot of "data" in the net is useless, like when a company says "length". I wish they'd say length without cap, length with cap screwed on (or closed) and length posted. One more reason to buy the darn thing in a store.

 

Mike http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu264/peli46/Sick32.png

... Oops.... Of course, Richard's site offers all we need, I was first thinking only about the manufacturers' sites....

Edited April 4, 2011 by lapis

[Kaptenmork]

http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/3074/shoty.jpg

My shortys, the ballpoint is a Sheaffer, not sure about the model, and the fp is a Campo Marzio, its a very cute pen but it dries very fast so I seldom use it.

The ballpoint is 10cm (10.5cm with cap) and the fp 9cm (11cm with cap).

 

For the non-metric, 10cm = 4inch

Edited April 4, 2011 by Kaptenmork

[beak]

Well done. This sort of thing is very useful IMO.

 

I have noticed with a couple of my vintage jobs that they are nicely compact when capped, but a good usable length when posted. And the variation is not evident from one photo.

 

Here's my suggestion for manufacturer's minimum dimensioning info. Wish they all gave this much! Forgive grottines of sketch - in a rush!

[eric47]

  On 4/4/2011 at 12:16 PM, beak said:

Here's my suggestion for manufacturer's minimum dimensioning info. Wish they all gave this much! Forgive grottines of sketch - in a rush!

 

One slight issue with those measurements, particularly on pens that have ("pure") friction fit nibs*. Nibs can be more or less deeply set, which leads to much variation in measurements that take the tip of the nib as a reference point, i.e. B and D in your drawing. So often the more stable measurement is the one from the back of the pen to the very edge/front of the section, which can be used in place of, or better, given in addition to B and D.

 

*Some friction fit pens, particularly those using Bock mounting hardware have a "cheater" cut-out for nib positing; so nibs can only be set at a certain depth (and can't be rotated incorrectly off the feed). Other pens, like vintage and modern Omas pens don't have that cut-out, so the length from the edge of the section to the point of the nib can vary quite a bit, which affects B and D.

Edited April 4, 2011 by eric47

[tonybelding]

I've been struggling a bit with the issue of size for a while. The size disparity between vintage and modern pens brought the subject to my attention. I think the TWSBI 530 typifies the modern trend. It's a big pen. It's not a fancy oversized version of a normal pen either. This is the new normal.

 

By way of comparison, consider a Sheaffer 330, a Pelikan M200, or a New Postal Jr. Pens of this size are understated, but highly convenient to carry everywhere. Or we could consider my vintage Wahl Doric, which is a rather fancy, nicely decorated pen that's also small by today's standards.

 

And yet. . . As my new daily user I am today contemplating my Edison Morgan. Yes, it's a behemoth. Capped it's almost six inches long -- actually 5-7/8". Posted (and it does post nicely) it comes to a whopping full seven inches. At first I thought I was going to use it like a merely semi-portable desk pen. It wouldn't be going anywhere with me; it would just be something to pull out of the drawer for that occasional special note.

 

As I've looked it over lately, I've begun to change my mind. Yes it's huge, but it's also remarkably lightweight for its size. It has a long, well-positioned, well-designed pocket clip -- which I've come to appreciate the importance of. Clips matter, they shouldn't be an afterthought. Also, the pen has a long "finial" on the end of the cap, almost half an inch. That accounts for some of the pen's length, but it makes a convenient place to grip when extracting it from a pocket. IN FACT, without the extra length of that finial, the Morgan's capped dimensions are very close to the TWSBI -- and it weighs less!

 

Wow. I can actually carry this.

 

And it's most definitely not understated. People will notice. I'm not sure how comfortable I really am with that, but. . . It's a work of art, it should be seen.

[beak]

  On 4/4/2011 at 12:53 PM, eric47 said:

..........

Point taken. I did not know that so much variation was likely. I'm now wondering which of these two dims I am reading when I look them up on line! Had assumed to the tip as in my sketch. Do we know which is generally more likely to be meant when an uncapped length is quoted?

 

Looking at the horrid little sketch again, I should mention that C is intended to be given as a diameter at the section.

Edited April 4, 2011 by beak

[jarvisloh]

That is extremely useful to newbies, like me!

 

But I think the Eversharp is missing from the 2nd photo..

[liverman]

I submit for your consideration that the important measurements for ergonomic fit of a pen are:

1. Length of nib - determined by the distance from your finger tips to the paper whent he hand is held in a relaxed, natural writing position. Too short and your hand must curl over to get the short nib to reach the paper. You can adjust for a short nib by holding the pen further away from the nib.
2. Length of body - from the beginning of the section to the end of the body - determined by the distance from your finger tips to the web of your hand - too short and you have to curl your hand to make sure the pen stays perched on the web of your hand. You can add length to the body of the pen by posting the cap on the end.

If you know these two key measurements you can decide if a pen will fit your hand without "scrunching" or "Curling" and allow you to use the pen with your hand naturally relaxed. Richard Binder is one of the few vendors I know who meticulously publishes the measurements of pens that allow remote implementation of this method of ergonomically fitting a pen to your hand.

 

When I get some time I will post some drawings and pictures of this ergonomic fit method.

 

Greg

 

 

[penspouse]

  On 4/4/2011 at 3:16 PM, jarvisloh said:

That is extremely useful to newbies, like me!

 

But I think the Eversharp is missing from the 2nd photo..

 

I'm glad you find this useful, and you are correct. I grabbed the wrong photo, not realizing the eversharp was missing. I was looking at the two and comparing only how in focus they were. :embarrassed_smile: I have replaced the original photo with the correct one.

[RobbW]

Wow, thanks for posting the photos, penspouse! Very instructive. What immediately strikes me is how very similar the P51 capped, posted and unposted lengths are. It's clear the cap was as thoughtfully considered and integrated into the overall design as the pen itself. It rides easily in a shirt pocket, yet feels like a larger semi-desk pen in my hand because of the width and the ability to write posted without much affecting the overall balance or length of the pen. I usually choose a flashier pen with an exposed nib, but every time I bring out my P51 I'm reminded how it is an example of just good, solid engineering--that is meant to be used.

 

I can closely approximate the length of each pen by scrolling my browser to it's tip, and using the top of my browser page to index the ruler. Thanks for including the ruler in the photos.

[penspouse]

  On 4/4/2011 at 4:15 PM, RobbW said:

Wow, thanks for posting the photos, penspouse! Very instructive. What immediately strikes me is how very similar the P51 capped, posted and unposted lengths are. It's clear the cap was as thoughtfully considered and integrated into the overall design as the pen itself. It rides easily in a shirt pocket, yet feels like a larger semi-desk pen in my hand because of the width and the ability to write posted without much affecting the overall balance or length of the pen. I usually choose a flashier pen with an exposed nib, but every time I bring out my P51 I'm reminded how it is an example of just good, solid engineering--that is meant to be used.

 

I can closely approximate the length of each pen by scrolling my browser to it's tip, and using the top of my browser page to index the ruler. Thanks for including the ruler in the photos.

 

You are most welcome. I find length to be very important in deciding if I want a pen or not. My pens have to have two things. They must have looks I like, and be a size I like. Maybe 3 - I also want quality. Oh, and then there's the "in my price range" part. I'm not picky, am I? :roflmho:

[clickiechick]

  On 4/5/2011 at 2:44 AM, penspouse said:

You are most welcome. I find length to be very important in deciding if I want a pen or not. My pens have to have two things. They must have looks I like, and be a size I like. Maybe 3 - I also want quality. Oh, and then there's the "in my price range" part. I'm not picky, am I? :roflmho:

 

Oh my, this could be me saying this. I like small pens too and they have to to have the right looks and cost and function. I only have a few I can post pictures of, soon hopefully. Pens that are small capped but of good size (around 5") when posted seem to me to present the best of both worlds: portability and usability when you need them.

[dickydotcom]

I have an Inoxcrome that is 4 7/8th inches capped

a mere 4 1/8th uncapped and a massive 6 1/4 posted.

 

Dick D

[beak]

  On 4/4/2011 at 2:07 PM, tonybelding said:

..........

 

The notion of what's normal certainly seems to have changed. My pen experienced is not that wide, but from what I can see, a Lamy Safari is a modern 'normal' size. When I wanted to get a vintage Pelikan to go with my modern M8xx size, I was really surprised to find that there was no such thing; all vintage Pelikans are, to me, definitely on the small side.

 

I did eventually get one to try, and the 400 was far too small for me to use comfortably. I showed it to a friend who had worked in a department store selling modern pens, and her immediate reaction was - Oh, that's a 'lady's' pen.

 

I know that several have said that one can easily adapt to a very small pen, but I still have a deal of trouble using them. Presumably Pelikan did not only sell to ladies before 1970 (or whenever it was that their bigger pens came out) and men clearly adapted.

[Richard]

  On 4/5/2011 at 7:25 AM, beak said:

I know that several have said that one can easily adapt to a very small pen, but I still have a deal of trouble using them. Presumably Pelikan did not only sell to ladies before 1970 (or whenever it was that their bigger pens came out) and men clearly adapted.

Here are four Sheaffer pens, in scale with each other:

 

http://www.richardspens.com/images/coll/LadyCrest.jpg

 

http://www.richardspens.com/images/coll/crest47.jpg

 

http://www.richardspens.com/images/coll/balance_mg_os.jpg

 

http://www.richardspens.com/images/ref/profiles/balance/bal_ii_aspen.jpg

 

The first three are vintage pens, a ladies' Crest, a men's Crest, an Oversize Balance. The fourth is a modern Balance II, in the only size that was offered. As you can see from the images, the modern Balance II is virtually the exact same size as the vintage Oversize pen.

 

I think that the difference between then and now is primarily one of how pens are handled. Because of the ballpoint, we moderns do not handle pens the way our forebears handled them.

 

To satisfy the requirements of a ballpoint pen, we have learned three things that are wrong for fountain pens. We grasp our pens tightly, often to the extent of white-knuckling our fists; we press down to make the ball roll; and we hold our pens at a high angle of attack above the paper to keep the ball retainer from scratching on the paper.

 

Our parents (or grandparents, depending on our own present ages) held their pens loosely, did not press down as a rule, and held their pens at a lower angle. (Yes, I know, some did; and today some of us don't grasp and push, either. I'm talking about the general run of people.)

 

Back in the day, an oversize pen was really OVERSIZE; it was larger than most people wanted. Today, it's the norm because a tight grasp calls for a larger pen in order to avoid cramp.

[nostalgic]

Thanks Richard, that was very helpful.

 

I must be unusual as I seem to adapt to pens of different sizes, both length and width--ranging from my small, beautiful Parker Duofold Sub-Deb to my Pelikan M605 and Waterman Gentleman. Like using each and all.

[beak]

Thanks Richard. Interesting.

 

I for one do not use an FP as I would a Biro, but still find certain small pens too fiddly for me, even with my bog-standard grip and light touch, though I understand your general point here.

 

Your experience would be able to report if Pelikan is an unusual brand in that the vintage pens from this company are all 'small'? - does this apply generally across brands, say to FPs made before the 1960s? From what I can see this is not so, but defer to you on that. Do you think that we should consider larger vintage pens of any brand to be 'specials' that sold in far fewer numbers than a smaller 'normal'?

 

Do you find, as mentioned above, that 'normal' - or shall we say most popular, - size is now larger than pre-1960? Thanks.

[Richard]

  On 4/6/2011 at 3:41 AM, beak said:

Your experience would be able to report if Pelikan is an unusual brand in that the vintage pens from this company are all 'small'?

Definitely not unusual. Follow this link to my compare page, where you can see the dimensions of the Pelikan M400 compared with a variety of vintage pens, all stacked up together. I've preselected a range of "ordinary" models. Are they all the same length? No. But they're all in the general ballpark, with the exception of the Waterman 52, which posts very long. All of the vintage pens I've selected are MEN'S models. Take note of their weights and barrel diameters.

 

  On 4/6/2011 at 3:41 AM, beak said:

Do you think that we should consider larger vintage pens of any brand to be 'specials' that sold in far fewer numbers than a smaller 'normal'?

Without question, yes. The Duofold Big Red is a big pen, the same size as a Jack-Knife Safety Nº 26. You'll find many more Nº 23s than 26s. In 1929, when Sheaffer introduced the Balance, the Oversize model that I've shown above was considered just that: oversize. It was a BIG pen, designed to impress the spectators, and it cost more and was available in fewer trim variations than the standard ("full") size models. In 1933, when Parker introduced the Vacumatic, the Standard (a named model) was about the size of the Major I've included in my comparison. The Oversize (again a named model) was bigger. One of the reasons collectors in the 1980s began to zero in on the big pens was not that they were bigger in the hand -- collectors initially didn't write with their collection -- but that they were rarer and therefore costlier (and hence more desirable in a collection).

 

 

  On 4/6/2011 at 3:41 AM, beak said:

Do you find, as mentioned above, that 'normal' - or shall we say most popular, - size is now larger than pre-1960?

Go back to my earlier post, where I point out that the Balance II of the millennium is the same size as the oversize Balance of the 1930s.