Should Penmanship Return to School?

[captnemo]

  KateGladstone said:

(proclaims Mr. Urban) the Phoenicians came around and invented talking ... so he says himself, on pages 6 through 7 of his amazingly piffle-rife book

BAHAHAHAHAHAAAA :roflmho:

 

The Phoenicians were among the first great seafarers (although the Pacific Islanders have them beat by thousands of years) but I did not know the Phoenicians got around so much. WOW! So he's saying that the Phoenicians taught the Eskimos, and the Mongolians, and the Central Africans, and the Mayans, and the Incas, and the Australian aborigines how to speak? Amazing. That would make the Phoenicians at once the greatest travelers, greatest diplomats, and greatest linguists of all time.

 

I'm amazed they don't get more credit for that.

 

:ltcapd:

 

 

Mr. Urban is demonstrating the effectiveness of the "Big Lie Principle". It's astounding how well it works on people.

[BillTheEditor]

  KateGladstone said:

As it happens, a popular motivational speaker/author Hal Urban - halurban.com) literally and truly believes-and-teaches that, oh-yes-indeed writing DID come first: that no human being ever said a word (but only drew pictures) in all the millennia until (proclaims Mr. Urban) the Phoenicians came around and invented talking ... so he says himself, on pages 6 through 7 of his amazingly piffle-rife book (required reading in some corporations' communications-courses) POSITIVE WORDS, POWERFUL RESULTS. Not content with saying that the Phoenicians invented speech, the (uh) amazingly inventive Urban further preaches that the word "phonics" came from the word "Phoenicians" too ...

... does anyone here have the energy to say "no," either on the Amazon.com page for this piffle-book of his, or via other means?

Oh, great.

 

Another nut case. Reminds me of Immanuel Velikovsky in the 50's.

[KateGladstone]

I've just placed on Amazon.com a criticism of Hal Urban's POSITIVE WORDS, POWERFUL RESULTS. Let's hope that my "negative words" can have powerful results, too ... care to join me? To post your own critique of the book, go to

http://www.amazon.com/Positive-Words-Power...ie=UTF8&s=books

or just

http://tinyurl.com/ynheys

[KateGladstone]

I, too, regard Hal Urban as "Another nut case" on the lines of Velikovsky. However, Velikovsky's books did not end up on the required-reading list of various corporate staff-development courses and even some elementary schools/colleges/high schools ... Hal Urban's work has attained such undeserved prominence.

I know at least three people who had to study Hal Urban's book (with the piffle about the Phoenicians inventing speech) at their workplaces, during communications-courses or similar courses required for new employees (and/or required for employees seeking promotion) at the businesses giving these courses which Hal Urban teaches and sells. All three disgusted employees have said to me that, if they knew then what they knew now (that the Phoenicians did not invent talking) they would have immediately quit the training-program (which would have meant losing their jobs) rather than continue with a requirement to learn and repeat false-to-fact statements.

[ProfMike]

Hi Everyone!

 

This topic seems to have diverted ever so slightly from the original (fascinating information, BTW), so I thought I'd add my $0.02 to see if I can generate a bit of new discussion. I'm a newbie, so I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes, but rather just trying to see what's out there.

 

I went to a Catholic school... with nuns... we were taught Palmer Method cursive writing until we got it. Plus, my father's side of the family traditionally has very good penmanship skills - nothing artistic, but certainly a pleasant, legible hand. I can't claim writing skills as beautiful and elegant of some of the posters here, but I certainly do my best and enjoy honing my skills.

 

As a teacher (I've taught everyone from Kindergarteners to college seniors), I realize that the hectic pace of the 21st Century lifestyle requires a lot of interaction with technology and computers. However, each semester, I see more and more students whose handwriting is utterly incomprehensible. :blink:

 

While we may not be able to return to the Spencerian Penmanship classes from the turn of the 20th century (nor should we seek to...), there should be some sort of general handwriting instruction so that students are able to express themselves on paper when they aren't in front of a computer. I don't expect students to submit exams or in-class work in a hand worthy of being framed, but I should be able to at least identify the peculiar symbols they have placed on the paper as a letter in an alphabet known to something other than a Martian :ltcapd:

 

Seriously, folks... Some of my Kindergarteners from a few years ago wrote more legibly than some of my college seniors from last semester!! So, here comes my question... Am I a prehistoric throwback to another generation (BTW, I'm 25 ) or has anyone else experienced something similar?

 

I tend to play a bit of the "Devil's Advocate," so feel free to let me know what you're thinking. I'm certainly open to new and different opinions.

 

Take care, everyone!

Mike

[captnemo]

  ProfMike said:

While we may not be able to return to the Spencerian Penmanship classes from the turn of the 20th century (nor should we seek to...), there should be some sort of general handwriting instruction so that students are able to express themselves on paper when they aren't in front of a computer.  I don't expect students to submit exams or in-class work in a hand worthy of being framed, but I should be able to at least identify the peculiar symbols they have placed on the paper as a letter in an alphabet known to something other than a Martian  :ltcapd:

Hi Mike,

 

I agree with you, and with a vehemence that would likely offend people if I said what I really think. I have spent a few years in dirt-poor third-world countries where the kids all had handwriting that was legible. It's a basic life skill, and the existence of computers does not reduce its importance one little bit.

 

My premise when I originally jumped into this thread was that people DO judge you by your handwriting, and that will continue to be true for as long as we continue to use handwriting. Forget neatness, forget beauty, those are not necessary for legibility. But if one's handwriting is illegible, and often illegible by the author him/herself then people will assume that that person is sloppy, has poor work habits, does not care, or is attempting to obfuscate, I think it's more important than many people realize, especially young people.

[HDoug]

I answered "yes," penmanship should return to school, but it's a hard question. I was always in the "remedial" penmanship penalty-box in school -- until they gave up -- and I've had really terrible handwriting most of my life until a recent year's effort has made it "serviceable." I am now able to write letters to people without a lot of embarrassment. Of course, those letters take an infinitely longer time to arrive than any "instant" message or email, but it has opened up such a wonderful world to me that I felt compelled to check the "yes" button in the poll.

 

Some make the point that since penmanship is no longer necessary, it merely takes time from the learning of "practical" life skills. For them, it's kind of like asking if knowing how to start a fire by rubbing two sticks together should be returned to the curriculum. But practicality isn't everything. Although I'm an IT guy now, I'm glad I studied music in college. I'm grateful that I know enough about music to be able to stumble through some simple chords on a ukulele while those with angelic voices sing hymns of praise to their ancestors and to God. I'm grateful that I know enough of counterpoint and harmony to be able to have some understanding of the profound essays of Johann Sebastian Bach. This knowledge, these skills, are not very practical ones to have in this world, but how dark the world would be for me without their light. And how dark a world I would live in if all I knew was the "practical."

 

Let's allow the kids some relief from the practical. Let them sing, let them dance, let them hurl their bodies around on skateboards. And let them learn something that has as its greatest characteristic, joy in communication. How can we deny them the happiness that all of us here experience on a daily basis?

 

Doug

Edited January 17, 2007 by HDoug

[captnemo]

  HDoug said:

Although I'm an IT guy now, I'm glad I studied music in college.  I'm grateful that I know enough about music to be able to stumble through some simple chords on a ukulele while those with angelic voices sing hymns of praise to their ancestors and to God.  I'm grateful that I know enough of counterpoint and harmony to be able to have some understanding of the profound essays of Johann Sebastian Bach.  This knowledge, these skills, are not very practical ones to have in this world, but how dark the world would be for me without their light.  And how dark a world I would live in if all I knew was the "practical."

Hello Doug,

 

Interesting that you should bring up music. There are those who feel that music is more important than mathematics when it comes to education, and I agree. (and this is coming from a nerdy engineer). I was fortunate to be schooled in music from a young age on piano, violin, pipe organ, and saxophone, and I feel that it adds enormously to one's appreciation of life. I also feel that learning at least one language in addition to one's "native tongue" greatly broadens one's view of people, and also serves to boost intelligence. There is some research that indicates this is so.

 

I don't mean to be argumentative, but the above skills are nothing like handwriting, which is a fundamental skill that is on the order of tieing one's shoes, dressing oneself, or brushing one's teeth.

 

/phil

[HDoug]

  captnemo said:

I don't mean to be argumentative, but the above skills are nothing like handwriting, which is a fundamental skill that is on the order of tieing one's shoes, dressing oneself, or brushing one's teeth.

Funny you should mention tieing one's shoes! A couple of year's ago, something went off in my head and I became suspicious that I was not tieing my shoelaces correctly. My theory was that my mom taught me the "baby" way when I was young, but forgot to "update" me when I got older. So I went in search (on the internet, of course) for the proper adult way to tie a shoelace. I came across Ian Fieggen's site, and glad to say, with a little practice, I now walk down the street with the confidence only a man with properly tied shoelaces could have!

 

Ian Fieggen's shoelace knot site

 

Doug

 

P.S. I manage to dress myself in the morning, but for me "matching socks" mean that they are only obligated to match each other.

 

P.P.S. Did I mention I was an IT guy?

Edited January 17, 2007 by HDoug

[marklavar]

  johnr55 said:

With apparently few schools in the US spending any significant amount of time on handwriting and penmanship, should we press for a return to the handwriting classes of the past?

I definitely believe penmanship should be an essential part of the curriculum in junior schools. It's not enough to be able to type on a keyboard, even in this age of high technology - you neeed good writing skills so that when you do write, others can understand what you write. And it's also a good discipline, it helps dexterity and manual control. Obviously it should never take the place of an academic subject, but penmanship should certainly be part of the overall education for younger children.

[alvarez57]

  Ann Finley said:

  chud said:

Let me throw out a related question... do you think handwriting is a fundamental skill, along with literacy and basic mathematics, or is it an artistic, cultural, general "well-roundedness" skill more akin to music, art, dance, and the like?

 

In this context, I mean handwriting beyond the basic ability to leave a mostly-legible note when needed -- I think we'll all agree that that's an essential skill, but it doesn't have to be very developed in order to be functional in an age where writing of any length can be typed.

I think handwriting is a fundamental skill. A "mostly legible" note may well not be a legible note if an important word isn't legible, or if a given letter were to be mistaken for another one and the word was read as a different word.

 

Yes, I'd say penmanship should be taught in school, as well as typing/keyboarding. Both are relevant, important skills.

 

Best, Ann

I voted yes for penmanship in terms of legibility. Many times I have posted around the critical problem encountered in the medical field where understanding what is written not only saves time but errors. We have a new computerised system at the hospital which has become sort of a nightmare for entering the data through a keyboard which is very, very time consuming for those who don't have "secretarial" skills.

[KateGladstone]

Among the hospitals that call me in to prevent medication errors (by giving handwriting classes to the doctors), a fairly high percentage claim to have "computerized everything" 1 or 2 or 5 or more years ago … yet they tell me they still have handwriting problems, because of a crucial 1% to 5% of handwrittendocumentation that just won't go away.

 

Doctors in "totally computerized" hospitals still scribble Post-Its to slap onto the walls of the nurse's station, still scrawl notes on the cuffs of their scrubs during impromptu elevator/corridor conferences with colleagues … and, most of all, doctors with computer systems often have the ward clerks operate the computers, use the Net, or

whatever: working, of course, from the doctors' illegible handwriting. Bad doctor handwriting, incorrectly deciphered by ward clerks using the computer for any purpose, thereby enters the computerized medical record.

 

And what happens when disasters knock out a hospital's network? More than one hospital, during Hurricane Katrina, lost its generator, its electric power — and therefore its computer system — for the duration. Even the computer-savviest staffers in the disaster zone had to use pens. Let's hope they wrote legibly.

[alvarez57]

  KateGladstone said:

Among the hospitals that call me in to prevent medication errors (by giving handwriting classes to the doctors), a fairly high percentage claim to have "computerized everything" 1 or 2 or 5 or more years ago … yet they tell me they still have handwriting problems, because of a crucial 1% to 5% of handwrittendocumentation that just won't go away.

 

Doctors in "totally computerized" hospitals still scribble Post-Its to slap onto the walls of the nurse's station, still scrawl notes on the cuffs of their scrubs during impromptu elevator/corridor conferences with colleagues … and, most of all, doctors with computer systems often have the ward clerks operate the computers, use the Net, or

whatever: working, of course, from the doctors' illegible handwriting. Bad doctor handwriting, incorrectly deciphered by ward clerks using the computer for any purpose, thereby enters the computerized medical record.

 

And what happens when disasters knock out a hospital's network? More than one hospital, during Hurricane Katrina, lost its generator, its electric power — and therefore its computer system — for the duration. Even the computer-savviest staffers in the disaster zone had to use pens. Let's hope they wrote legibly.

Do I agree with you!

So you're one of the poor souls who has to translate slopy handwriting! You have no idea how upset I get when I consult a specialist to help me out and then I can't figure out what the heck they wrote regarding MY patient.

These Physicians may have clerks to do some of the "dirty" scribbling job, but entering info in a Palm Pilot is still Stone Age!

[KateGladstone]

Re:

 

> ... the poor souls who ha[ve] to translate slop[p]y handwriting!

 

I don't have to translate it except when I visit the hospitals to teach UN-sloppy handwriting. The folks who have to translate sloppy handwriting day in & day out, often overtime, all the year around, work in the Medical Records department (and from there they complain loudly enough that sometime s a hospital will actually listen and bring me in).

 

Rather than devote my time to translation, I use my time to teach the cacography-mongers to write in a manner that does not need laborious decipherment.

[ProfMike]

This is definitely an interesting thread...

 

I'm wondering when penmanship began to be phased out of American public schools. At least I'm getting the impression that it happened according to some of the posts I've read here.

 

Capt. Nemo mentioned that as early as the 50s and 60s, penmanship was on the way out of the schools he attended. However, I went to grade school in the late 80s and early 90s (albeit a private, Catholic school) and we were taught traditional Palmer Method penmanship. I'm sure my classmates and I didn't have the same style of intense handwriting training as our parents and grandparents, but we were taught it and required to use it.

 

When I taught grade school Spanish a few years ago (again in a private, Catholic school), the third grade teacher taught a slightly modernized Palmer Method penmanship. A few letter shapes (like capital F and T) were a bit different from what I was taught, but the basics were there.

 

But then... <_< Once the students were in higher grades, beyond the watchful eyes of the third grade teacher, something happened. Higher-grade teachers no longer required cursive handwriting and many of the students reverted to printing. By junior high, few students used cursive writing and, as a whole, handwriting legibility (printing or cursive) was definitely on a downward slide.

 

Although I teach, I have always taught Spanish - language and literature - and have never been a grade-level teacher that would be in charge of penmanship lessons. Not that I wouldn't enjoy doing that one day

 

Anyway, as I mentioned before, I'm curious to know when penmanship went from a required subject in school to more of a treasured hobby for we dedicated few.

 

If anyone has any information and is willing to share, I'd be extremely grateful.

 

All the best,

Mike

[KateGladstone]

Some USA schools, and some USA teacher-training colleges, dropped or de-emphasized handwriting instruction as early as the late 1920s/early 1930s, in a cost-saving measure that conveniently combined with a notion that "children should unfold naturally: no drill, nothing that the child does not immediately love" (or words to that effect).

When the "naturally unfolded" (and still scribbling) graduates became parents/teachers/taxpayers a couple of decades later, it seems that (in places where they constituted a majority or near-majority) they saw no particular reason to re-institute handwriting drill, to maintain it in schools that still had it, or to renew the contracts of penmanship supervisors (formerly an important position in most schools or districts) — they found it more convenient and pleasant to let the penmanship supervisors retire without replacement.

[alvarez57]

  KateGladstone said:

Re:

 

> ... the poor souls who ha[ve] to translate slop[p]y handwriting!

 

Oops!

Taliking about the way some MD's write and I wrote with bunch of mistakes......

'Twas too late at night! ....after all, English is my 2nd language...

Edited January 26, 2007 by alvarez57

[captnemo]

  KateGladstone said:

"children should unfold naturally: no drill, nothing that the child does not immediately love" (or words to that effect).

What a load of cr*p that is. If it were not for long, hard, boring drills, 95 percent of the top musicians in the world would not exist.

 

If we adhered to that philosophy then we can forget about ever having great concert pianists, violinists, or even accurate kickers in football or excellent pitchers in baseball. Certain motor skills can only be developed by long hard practice because that is how our motor skills work. A great many of today's musicians had to be forced, threatened, or worse to practice by their parents. Then, after years of practice, the kid learns that he or she actually enjoys playing the instrument--but only after he or she was forced over the enormously steep learning curve that blocks the way to real proficiency and which stops any average person.

 

Some things just take mind-numbing practice. :bonk: That's just the way it is. It can't be wished or argued away and it cannot be packed into a pill.

 

Oops, there I go, being a cranky curmudgeon again.

[alvarez57]

  captnemo said:

  KateGladstone said:

"children should unfold naturally: no drill, nothing that the child does not immediately love" (or words to that effect).

What a load of cr*p that is. If it were not for long, hard, boring drills, 95 percent of the top musicians in the world would not exist.

 

If we adhered to that philosophy then we can forget about ever having great concert pianists, violinists, or even accurate kickers in football or excellent pitchers in baseball. Certain motor skills can only be developed by long hard practice because that is how our motor skills work. A great many of today's musicians had to be forced, threatened, or worse to practice by their parents. Then, after years of practice, the kid learns that he or she actually enjoys playing the instrument--but only after he or she was forced over the enormously steep learning curve that blocks the way to real proficiency and which stops any average person.

 

Some things just take mind-numbing practice. :bonk: That's just the way it is. It can't be wished or argued away and it cannot be packed into a pill.

 

Oops, there I go, being a cranky curmudgeon again.

Can you imagine a Physician without all those long hours of studying and memorizing/learning?

I don't think you're being an "cranky curmudgeon" here.

[ProfMike]

  alvarez57 said:

  captnemo said:

  KateGladstone said:

"children should unfold naturally: no drill, nothing that the child does not immediately love" (or words to that effect).

What a load of cr*p that is. If it were not for long, hard, boring drills, 95 percent of the top musicians in the world would not exist.

 

If we adhered to that philosophy then we can forget about ever having great concert pianists, violinists, or even accurate kickers in football or excellent pitchers in baseball. Certain motor skills can only be developed by long hard practice because that is how our motor skills work. A great many of today's musicians had to be forced, threatened, or worse to practice by their parents. Then, after years of practice, the kid learns that he or she actually enjoys playing the instrument--but only after he or she was forced over the enormously steep learning curve that blocks the way to real proficiency and which stops any average person.

 

Some things just take mind-numbing practice. :bonk: That's just the way it is. It can't be wished or argued away and it cannot be packed into a pill.

 

Oops, there I go, being a cranky curmudgeon again.

Can you imagine a Physician without all those long hours of studying and memorizing/learning?

I don't think you're being an "cranky curmudgeon" here.

While children develop naturally in some areas, many skills require practice, time, and memorization. As I said before, although I don't think it's necesary for every person - man, woman, and child - to be drilled with Palmer Method writing exercises, there should be some sort of standards that require handwriting practice and instruction. Computers are a great time saver, but we all need to be able to write legibly and efficiently. Regardless of a given style or handwriting - "cursive", Palmer, Zaner, Copperplate, italic, etc. - it is a skill like any other that must be practiced.

 

This may be a bit of an aside, but I see a trend crossing many educational disciplines that worries me. Modern students are becoming so accustomed to instant access information through the internet, that "memorization" is on the way to becoming a thing of the past. If it's not available at their fingertips, they lose intest or simply refuse to do it. The addage "practice makes perfect" so many of us are familiar with is not embraced by some modern students. This is, of course, a generalization, but is something with which we may have to come to terms.

 

I teach Spanish, and like any language - or any discipline for that matter - a lot of memorization is required. While I can explain grammar and structure, and present vocabulary, the only way a student will "learn" the language is to commit that information to memory. It doesn't matter how many times I review something, the students must work on their own time to hone their skills. When students perform poorly - especially with vocabulary - and ask me for suggestions, I often tell them to find ways to help them memorize the meaning of the words. Flash cards, labeling their rooms with vocab words... you name it. While I can give them guided practice for many things, I have no convenient tricks to make them remember that "la mesa" means "the table." You just have to memorize it.

 

More and more students balk at my suggestions and ask if I have an easy "trick" that isn't as much work. The process of learning is no longer as important to some of them; they just want the final product (word, sentence, or paragraph) to appear for them, perfectly worded, flawlessly conjugated, and ready to go.

 

Well, I've gone and done it again. What I thought would be a quick comment turned into a bit of a grumpy rant.

 

I guess it's just upsetting to see so many people starting to believe that the process - practicing neat handwriting or learning new words in a different language - is no longer seen as quite so important. For me, learning how to do those things was just as fun an interesting as finally being able to do them.

 

All the best to everyone,

Mike

 

Edited to fix long-missed and highly embarrassing typo Thanks, jamesf!!

Edited March 18, 2007 by ProfMike