Interesting Montblanc ?

[Pen Nut]

maybe I should have gone a bit more .... :bonk:

[Makar]

I confess that I was expecting it to go for much more but maybe it just fell in between two camps - nazi memorabilia and pen collectors. I was imagining a price in the mid £1500 to £1800 range. It is a real catch at this price - although it would be nice to see the clip and feed etc. But a lot would have to be wrong for this not to be a great price.

[kcunvong]

Wow, a 139 for £330? That's insane.

[Pen Nut]

Okay Okay I missed a good deal !! Anyway I bet the £330 bidder would have gone a lot more than that if I had kept bidding. (thats what I am getting a bit of comfort from anyway)

[Pen Nut]

Oh the horror continues....... fellow pen nut in house earlier and whilst I was putting the kettle on he was thumbing through the auction catalogue where the damn pen was listed, then the words were spoken : " Hey Ian there's a 139 going through here.....bet it gets at least £1500 " He was unaware of my 'miss' on this pen. My answer " so how do you like your tea? poured down the front or the back of your underpants " :embarrassed_smile: :embarrassed_smile:

[rockspyder]

Wow, a 139 for £330? That's insane.

Insane even for a damaged one in bad condition! 139's are, well, MB's finest creation ever.

 

Pen Nut, back to your original question - definitely an issue that could raise extended debate, and a very interesting one.

Personally, I could not hold any relic accountable for any actions its owner may have performed with it. As such, I would not mind having it - on the contrary, more awareness of its past should inspire all of us to remember history, to learn from it, and not go down the same path again. Sadly, even today, there are examples of man doing the same bad things over again, because history is already forgotten.

 

Hmmm....a 139 for that price....you really lost out bigtime.... :embarrassed_smile: :roflmho:

[CS388]

Oh the horror continues....... fellow pen nut in house earlier and whilst I was putting the kettle on he was thumbing through the auction catalogue where the damn pen was listed, then the words were spoken : " Hey Ian there's a 139 going through here.....bet it gets at least £1500 " He was unaware of my 'miss' on this pen. My answer " so how do you like your tea? poured down the front or the back of your underpants " :embarrassed_smile: :embarrassed_smile:

 

Yeah. But I think you've done good. As you say in your previous - if you'd kept on bidding, who knows where it would have ended?

Other bidder may have put a £10K bid on. May have been (eg) collector of Nazi Paraphernalia, rather than a pen fan etc etc. Who knows how much that muck sells for?

The association was certainly highlighted in the lot description and would attract bidders from 'non-pen' fields of interest.

 

The object itself carries none of this taint, it's just a tool.

If I'd found it in the back of an old desk drawer, I would be none the wiser and use it as a good 139 etc.

That said, I still find myself agreeing with other posters, the association does leave an unpleasant taste. Knowledge is all.

I'd have passed on this one (if I was even in that league of super-pen buyers! I barely keep myself in ink!)

 

Great thread, Pen Nut. Thanks.

[WanderingAuthor]

Coming in late to this... but I have to toss in my two cents.

 

The pen, in itself, is of course not evil. It is an inanimate object, with no responsibility for the actions of its owner.

 

And, someone who owned such a pen need not be evil. There are many reasons for collecting such an item. Of course, if someone bought it because they idolised Ribbentrop, that would be a very sick thing. But there are many other reasons. In your case, you were interested in the pen, not the history. Nothing at all wrong with that.

 

However, I don't think I could own such a pen, at least not if I knew its history. Heck, I keep drawing back from buying any German pen of the period, even though there are a few I'd really like. The thought it might have been used to sign some of those documents is enough to creep me out. I'm not saying anyone else needs to feel that way - but I wish I could find a nice vintage Pelikan with a documented history of belonging to some prominent anti-Nazi. Because I'd be so much more comfortable with that.

[Pen Nut]

Just re booting this thread for a non FPNer ( odd person ) to read.

[hcsk8ter]

That's similar to asking if I'd want to buy THE Bushmaster Adam Lanza used to murder innocent school children.

 

The easy answer to that is an EMPHATIC no.

 

Yes, guns don't kill people, people do. Literally that's true.

 

So by the same token pens, taken in GENERAL terms in their plurality, pens aren't evil either.

 

HOWEVER, if this individual was associated with (I didn't google him) the Nazis, death camps, etc, I would abhor the idea of owning this INDIVIDUAL pen without question.

 

I literally, wouldn't even touch it.

 

Just my opinion.

[Rowbo]

It is not the pen that offends. It is the provenance that comes with it. The term semiotics springs to mind.

 

To 'exorcise' the supposed 'iconic' status of this pen, for the next owner anyway, it should be separated from its provenance, permanently. It is then just another 139.

 

It was clearly the seller's intention to capitalize on its (infamous) history. I think it only right that this was not to happen.

[tmcneil82]

I always like to think that people "liberate" these things from their provenance and put them to good use, such as checks to charity. If I were to own a pen with an "evil" past, I feel it would motivate me to do so anyway, just to try and do my part in negating its previous history.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

I would have liked to get that pen and used it to do good things. It would be hard to do though I think since it feels as though it was so close to the action where it could have aided the murder of many of our grandparents, parents, friends, and other people. I would probably use it to write birthday cards, checks to charity, letters, and such things.

 

Dillon

[georges zaslavsky]

I would not want to be within a 4,000 mile radius of that thing.

me too

[adamselene]

I am imagining a horrible horror story based on this thread. I would think this object could be a source of evil, by the influence psychological, not supernatural, means!

[Blade Runner]

If it is a pen i want and it has a good price, i would get it, but I would not pay extra for a provenance that i do not.

like.

 

On the other hand not all Germans who wore the uniform fall under the category of the vile nazis. If there were a pen i liked that belonged to someone like Field Marshall Erwin Rommel, http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel, l would pay much more.

[adamselene]

Hmmm, there is the historical figure, and then there is the pen. Rommel is an amazing figure, but still, associated with war and killing. I am reading "the Gathering Storm", by Churchill. I would certainly like to have any pen he used, or any named after him. I love my CS Churchill.

 

There is a famous story about Ghandi having a prized pen stolen, although it was an Indian made early effort. He then adopted more primitive pen-like instruments carved from wood, with the goal of never tempting a thief with so desirable an object.

 

Three ideas for threads -- famous missing pens in history, like Churchill's or Ghandi's, that a theoretical time traveller might be collecting; the most desirable historical Fountain Pen; and the best pen used by a famous, or infamous, figure.

 

(The things I come up with when avoiding work, that might be another thread!)

Edited December 14, 2013 by adamselene

[meiers]

This is weird.

All this talk of nazi pens.

[meiers]

And no, a pen is not more interesting because a murderer has touched or fondled it.

[meiers]

I have recently placed a percussion pistol in a well respected specialist auction house and when the catalogue landed I noticed the picture of a pen with the description below:

 

A Montblanc - Meisterstuck fountain pen, formerly the property of Joachim von Ribbentrop, German Foreign Minister during the Third Reich, GC; together with a printed letter of authentication from the son of Major Maurice Hockliffe, who was Chief Security Officer for Hamburg when Ribbentrop was captured, and who relieved Ribbentrop of various items, including the fountain pen; also a photocopied page from a book confirming that the initial interviews with Ribbentrop were made in Major Hockliffes office while awaiting instructions, and a copy of Hockliffes sons birth certificate.

 

Of course my interest was aroused; its a Montblanc pen after all! , and I placed a sealed bid via post on this.

 

Doing a bit of research on Ribbentrop not sure if it was the right thing to do as he appeared, like the rest of them, to be a high ranking vile chap who, when tried, was rightly hanged. Do I want a pen that has, in its life, probably signed papers that at least helped the war effort and at worst sent people to their deaths? Is that too emotional? Does the famous gun supporting line of guns dont kill people, people kill people apply to pens as well? Anyway I have not retracted my bid, although Mrs Pen Nut says I should, so if I do end up owning it I will post pictures for your viewing and identification.

 

Would the ownership of a pen that had a known sinister back ground or owner bother you?

They took the montblanc away from him because he didn't deserve it.