Pens In World War Two

[scribere]

  On 3/3/2011 at 4:49 PM, WanderingAuthor said:

  On 3/3/2011 at 12:36 PM, richardandtracy said:

I have a letter from my grandfather to my grandmother that I have recently discovered. He was in the British Royal Artilliary, but frequently got attached to other units because he wasn't very good at doing what he was told.

 

The letter was dated 'October, somewhere in Italy', so I presume it was 1943. In it my grandfather appologises for how faint the ink was, and asks 'Can you send me some ink for my Onoto? I cannot get any here.'.

 

Richard;

 

While it isn't relevant to the main question I am a former professional genealogist, and so always alert to any possibility evidence might be misinterpreted. If this letter holds any significance in relation to your family history, I'd caution you not to get too attached to your assumption that it was written in 1943. There were certainly units in Italy in October 1944 as well. Of course, other references might help you pin this down, but at the moment, you know the month and one of two years, but not which year it might have been.

 

I'm sorry if you find this correction pedantic - but I know of cases in which such assumptions have been made, and the result has been to keep someone from finding records of vital interest to them, because they are looking in the wrong year. (Say your grandfather had mentioned news he'd received in his last letter home that so-and-so was born not long before. If you needed or wanted to find that birth record, and kept looking in 1943 when it was really 1944... People have searched in vain for decades in situations like that.) It may not matter in your case, but just in case, I thought I'd better point out the possibility.

 

Wandering Author's right about this. (A historian speaking here - haha.) Are there perhaps any details in the letter that can be corroborated with known events within the family or community, or even events at large?

[sirksael]

Here is an interesting post on the topic...

[richardandtracy]

  On 3/3/2011 at 4:49 PM, WanderingAuthor said:

  On 3/3/2011 at 12:36 PM, richardandtracy said:

I have a letter from my grandfather to my grandmother that I have recently discovered. He was in the British Royal Artilliary, but frequently got attached to other units because he wasn't very good at doing what he was told.

 

The letter was dated 'October, somewhere in Italy', so I presume it was 1943. In it my grandfather appologises for how faint the ink was, and asks 'Can you send me some ink for my Onoto? I cannot get any here.'.

 

Richard;

 

While it isn't relevant to the main question I am a former professional genealogist, and so always alert to any possibility evidence might be misinterpreted. If this letter holds any significance in relation to your family history, I'd caution you not to get too attached to your assumption that it was written in 1943. There were certainly units in Italy in October 1944 as well. ...

 

We do know that in October 1944 he was in northern Europe, frequently doing what he felt was right rather than what he had been told to do. He missed D-Day due to breaking his femur on Christmas Day 1943 in Egypt (too much drink combined with dancing on trestle tables!) and got shipped to the forces in northern France in late July 1944 where he joined in and moved East as & when it was possible.

To give you an idea of how good he was at following orders, in May 1940 he received an order to retreat to Dunkirk. On looking at a map, he declared it a deathtrap, and went to Cherbourg instead (travelling at night to avoid air attack - and presumably passed through the same areas that the German forces had passed through earlier), which meant that his troop of artilliary got out with their 2lb anti-tank pop-guns, increasing the UK's total from 36 to 42 that could be used to defend the country (Liddel Hart's history of WW2 is my source for the 42 guns, my father who was also in the Royal Artilliary is the source of the number of guns in his troop). Due to him not going to Dunkirk, my grandmother received a 'Missing in action, presumed dead' telegram which we still have.

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

[WanderingAuthor]

  On 3/15/2011 at 9:33 AM, richardandtracy said:

We do know that in October 1944 he was in northern Europe, frequently doing what he felt was right rather than what he had been told to do. He missed D-Day due to breaking his femur on Christmas Day 1943 in Egypt (too much drink combined with dancing on trestle tables!) and got shipped to the forces in northern France in late July 1944 where he joined in and moved East as & when it was possible.

To give you an idea of how good he was at following orders, in May 1940 he received an order to retreat to Dunkirk. On looking at a map, he declared it a deathtrap, and went to Cherbourg instead (travelling at night to avoid air attack - and presumably passed through the same areas that the German forces had passed through earlier), which meant that his troop of artilliary got out with their 2lb anti-tank pop-guns, increasing the UK's total from 36 to 42 that could be used to defend the country (Liddel Hart's history of WW2 is my source for the 42 guns, my father who was also in the Royal Artilliary is the source of the number of guns in his troop). Due to him not going to Dunkirk, my grandmother received a 'Missing in action, presumed dead' telegram which we still have.

 

He sounds like a fascinating man, with a small but real role in the history of the period. Has anyone considered collecting the information available on him, researching any missing pieces, and writing a book (or, if you don't have enough material for that, a long article - although he sounds to me as though he'd be good for a book ) on him? I know I'd love to read the result.

[richardandtracy]

I may write a little of his story for the family history, but I doubt his life was interesting enough for anyone else to want to read. We enjoy piecing fragments of his life together (like finding his big game hunting record so we can date the skin of a man eating Leopard we have), but there isn't really enough documentation to make a coherent story, and he died in the early 1970's, so we can't ask him to fill in the gaps.

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

[WanderingAuthor]

  On 3/16/2011 at 10:58 AM, richardandtracy said:

I may write a little of his story for the family history, but I doubt his life was interesting enough for anyone else to want to read.

 

At least all the World War Two buffs would disagree with you. I can't speak for anyone else.

 

  On 3/16/2011 at 10:58 AM, richardandtracy said:

We enjoy piecing fragments of his life together (like finding his big game hunting record so we can date the skin of a man eating Leopard we have), but there isn't really enough documentation to make a coherent story, and he died in the early 1970's, so we can't ask him to fill in the gaps.

 

Although it would obviously be a huge amount of work, see the book Only A Few Bones, by John Philip Colletta, for an example of how much can be done with what appears at first to be almost no information. I don't think this book was released in the UK (although I'm not sure) so you may have trouble finding a library which has a copy on their shelves, but it makes for interesting reading. It is also a fine example of how much history - even personal history - can be reconstructed through careful work.

 

Only you can decide if the amount of work required would be worth it - much as I'd love to persuade you, since I at least would be very interested in reading his story - but understanding what is possible has never hurt anyone.

[Shangas]

Richard, I think many people would be interested in your grandfather's adventures. I hate to repeat stuff, but one of my university lecturers once told us that there were no boring subjects.

 

Only boring writers who make an interesting subject dull as ditchwater.

 

Don't be dull. Write a wonderful story.

[mturk]

According to my father, a B-24 navigator in the pacific theatre, no one was issued a pen. payroll clerks and "office types" had dip pens (Esterbrook?, but UncleSam didn't buy fountain pens. I have my father's Sheaffer 875 with the military clip that he used throughout he war. The matching pencil, which he used most in flight, was lost decades ago.

[blemt]

  On 3/16/2011 at 10:58 AM, richardandtracy said:

I may write a little of his story for the family history, but I doubt his life was interesting enough for anyone else to want to read. We enjoy piecing fragments of his life together (like finding his big game hunting record so we can date the skin of a man eating Leopard we have), but there isn't really enough documentation to make a coherent story, and he died in the early 1970's, so we can't ask him to fill in the gaps.

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

 

Oh I don't know. I think a story of a grandson with an interest in pens tracking back through the family history because of a pen story...that just might produce some interest in various quarters.

 

The topic of the story is only part of the appeal. The other part is the ability of the storyteller.

[blemt]

I love questions like this.

 

I called up my Dad, who's a well regarded German military historian. He doesn't have an answer about issued pens, but did provide a couple points.

 

1) Official corrospondence, dispatches, orders and the like are as a rule typed and signed in pen. In an extreme emergency you'll find something in pencil.

 

2) Remember that this is a time when you write letters. Typing was considered rude. So a very common and standard gift to a graduate would be a pen. For a college graduate, a pen would be an expected gift. Draftees who had college degrees would likely take that pen with them. Fountain pen usage would then depend on the nation, make up of the military (who was in the draft pool), and overall literacy of the population. A Soviet conscript is going to use a different writing implement than a college educated US draftee.

 

3) In his own research, most of the German corrospondence he's read is in ink, not pencil.

 

The bonus out of this is he's interested in the question. So he's going to go tap several of the folks he knows who may have a better answer. We'll see what he comes up with. I noticed at least one person mentioned Band of Brothers. So I asked him if he can possibly find out if Dick Winters was using a pencil or a fountain pen. He thinks he might be able to do that. No promise on brand though.

[mturk]

  On 3/3/2011 at 4:41 PM, WanderingAuthor said:

  On 3/3/2011 at 5:21 AM, Kaweco said:

So show me a pic and I tell you where it`s made

 

Thomas;

 

I don't have any pens engraved with that particular symbolism. It would be a total spoiler for me; I could never use a pen marked in such a way.

 

I just assume, knowing how eager various Nazis were to emblazon practically everything they owned with the symbols of their allegiance, and how easy it was for any owner with the means to have pens of the period engraved to their taste, that there are or were many such pens. And that the markings may have nothing at all to do with the sympathies of the pen manufacturer.

 

Much as I am no admirer of the Nazis and their atrocities, I think it is important to draw a distinction between individuals and organisations that were deeply involved in these things, and others who simply had the misfortune to be caught up in terrible events they could not control. And I have never seen anything to suggest that any pen manufacturer I know of was linked to the Nazi party in any particular way.

 

 

I have seen Matador fountain pens with a white metal Nazi Party eagle on the pocket clip. The owner was not a pen enthusiast, but a Nazi memorabilia collector (creepy). I recognized the stylized M on the clip as Matador.

[camoandconcrete]

  On 3/17/2011 at 12:36 AM, mturk said:

  On 3/3/2011 at 4:41 PM, WanderingAuthor said:

  On 3/3/2011 at 5:21 AM, Kaweco said:

So show me a pic and I tell you where it`s made

 

Thomas;

 

I don't have any pens engraved with that particular symbolism. It would be a total spoiler for me; I could never use a pen marked in such a way.

 

I just assume, knowing how eager various Nazis were to emblazon practically everything they owned with the symbols of their allegiance, and how easy it was for any owner with the means to have pens of the period engraved to their taste, that there are or were many such pens. And that the markings may have nothing at all to do with the sympathies of the pen manufacturer.

 

Much as I am no admirer of the Nazis and their atrocities, I think it is important to draw a distinction between individuals and organisations that were deeply involved in these things, and others who simply had the misfortune to be caught up in terrible events they could not control. And I have never seen anything to suggest that any pen manufacturer I know of was linked to the Nazi party in any particular way.

 

 

I have seen Matador fountain pens with a white metal Nazi Party eagle on the pocket clip. The owner was not a pen enthusiast, but a Nazi memorabilia collector (creepy). I recognized the stylized M on the clip as Matador.

 

I don't think its creepy if he is a collector of items relating to the Wehrmacht but definitely creepy if he only collects party memorabilia. There's a difference between the standards of the Wehrmacht, except for the SS (which was the military wing of the Party), and the Party. I love history and used to collect Heer militaria along with US Army gear. Its actually a lot of fun and the majority of people are normal guys who just love history. However, you will run into the occasional off balance person who collects only SS gear and is very serious about it and other stuff. Those guys are a little scary.

[Blueblack4256]

  On 3/17/2011 at 1:57 AM, MiamiArchStudent said:

  On 3/17/2011 at 12:36 AM, mturk said:

  On 3/3/2011 at 4:41 PM, WanderingAuthor said:

  On 3/3/2011 at 5:21 AM, Kaweco said:

So show me a pic and I tell you where it`s made

 

Thomas;

 

I don't have any pens engraved with that particular symbolism. It would be a total spoiler for me; I could never use a pen marked in such a way.

 

I just assume, knowing how eager various Nazis were to emblazon practically everything they owned with the symbols of their allegiance, and how easy it was for any owner with the means to have pens of the period engraved to their taste, that there are or were many such pens. And that the markings may have nothing at all to do with the sympathies of the pen manufacturer.

 

Much as I am no admirer of the Nazis and their atrocities, I think it is important to draw a distinction between individuals and organisations that were deeply involved in these things, and others who simply had the misfortune to be caught up in terrible events they could not control. And I have never seen anything to suggest that any pen manufacturer I know of was linked to the Nazi party in any particular way.

 

 

I have seen Matador fountain pens with a white metal Nazi Party eagle on the pocket clip. The owner was not a pen enthusiast, but a Nazi memorabilia collector (creepy). I recognized the stylized M on the clip as Matador.

 

I don't think its creepy if he is a collector of items relating to the Wehrmacht but definitely creepy if he only collects party memorabilia. There's a difference between the standards of the Wehrmacht, except for the SS (which was the military wing of the Party), and the Party. I love history and used to collect Heer militaria along with US Army gear. Its actually a lot of fun and the majority of people are normal guys who just love history. However, you will run into the occasional off balance person who collects only SS gear and is very serious about it and other stuff. Those guys are a little scary.

 

I would agree. I became interested in vintage pen collecting as a result of doing original source research on scientific projects from 1938-1945. The gentleman in question collected only Gestapo, SS, and similar party memorabilia. I have heard of other German pen manufacturers that had their products "personalized" by the Nazi Party, but haven't seen any evidence of this.

[stuartk]

  On 2/16/2011 at 11:41 PM, Shangas said:

Although production was severely limited, I understand that the vacumatic-fill Parker '51' was a popular wartime pen because its design meant it could be carried by military personnel without the clip sticking out under the pocket-flap.

 

I have a wartime 51 FP and pencil set that aren't quite matched. I was told that it came this way, and that it was fairly common during the war for Parker to make up sets from whatever they had on hand.

 

As for military-issue pens, I remember hearing about military-issued ink tablet kits so you could mix up some ink out in the field and fill your pen with it. I don't remember the details though.

[stuartk]

  On 3/17/2011 at 12:36 AM, mturk said:

I have seen Matador fountain pens with a white metal Nazi Party eagle on the pocket clip. The owner was not a pen enthusiast, but a Nazi memorabilia collector (creepy).

 

I think it depends upon the person and their reasons for collecting these things. It's certainly not my cup of tea, but, like it or not, it's part of history and it was an important part of the 20th century.

 

I know an MD who collects early surgical instruments. If he were Hannibal Lector-like, it would be creepy. He's not like that though, so it isn't creepy IMO.

 

The Soviets carted off all kinds of things from Germany at the end of the war. I wonder if they took any pen companies?

[Shaughn]

Adding my 2 cts:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2010/04/18/ST2010041800259.html might be of interest

 

Maybe the Skilcraft archives can tell more... or have a look at the Quarternasters museum, where "someone came [...]to do a study on different type of WWII issue toothbrushes, toothpaste, combs, soap, etc." IF that was not a joke here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t75408.html

 

More on the subject:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/131456-pens-of-world-war-ii/

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/167513-skilcraft-fountain-pen/

[Inka]

An excellent article on Richard Binders' Website on this very topic, shows why the Mil-clip and Tucky amongst others were within military regulation and why...

http://www.richardsp...gn/milclips.htm

While I believe it's mostly about U.S. wartime military regs [i've not read it all in some time, Link-only for now so I'll leave that to you to look through] , I suppose it could have been the same or similar regulation for allied forces as well.

The Parker "51" clips are also designed such that they'll meet mil-spec I think, at least mine sit low enough in my flap-over shirt pockets and BDUs that I believe they'd meet the regs even back then.

[sadiemagic]

My dad was a private in WWII, and I don't think he was issued a fountain pen by the army because when he left, my mother gave him a small Sheaffer Balance, brown striated, with a gold nib, and his initials engraved on the clip. He used that pen to write home all his letters and cards from 1942 to 1945.

 

I have no idea how he got ink for it while he was in Europe (doesn't strike me as something you'd have if you were a mortar gunner).

 

I had a new sac put in it a few years ago and it writes beautifully. It is one of my most treasured possessions. I will use it on days that I know will be especially challenging at work -- if my father and that pen survived the Battle of the Bulge, well, surely I can get through that day.

[auslese]

  On 3/17/2011 at 1:57 AM, MiamiArchStudent said:

  On 3/17/2011 at 12:36 AM, mturk said:

  On 3/3/2011 at 4:41 PM, WanderingAuthor said:

  On 3/3/2011 at 5:21 AM, Kaweco said:

So show me a pic and I tell you where it`s made

 

Thomas;

 

I don't have any pens engraved with that particular symbolism. It would be a total spoiler for me; I could never use a pen marked in such a way.

 

I just assume, knowing how eager various Nazis were to emblazon practically everything they owned with the symbols of their allegiance, and how easy it was for any owner with the means to have pens of the period engraved to their taste, that there are or were many such pens. And that the markings may have nothing at all to do with the sympathies of the pen manufacturer.

 

Much as I am no admirer of the Nazis and their atrocities, I think it is important to draw a distinction between individuals and organisations that were deeply involved in these things, and others who simply had the misfortune to be caught up in terrible events they could not control. And I have never seen anything to suggest that any pen manufacturer I know of was linked to the Nazi party in any particular way.

 

 

I have seen Matador fountain pens with a white metal Nazi Party eagle on the pocket clip. The owner was not a pen enthusiast, but a Nazi memorabilia collector (creepy). I recognized the stylized M on the clip as Matador.

 

I don't think its creepy if he is a collector of items relating to the Wehrmacht but definitely creepy if he only collects party memorabilia. There's a difference between the standards of the Wehrmacht, except for the SS (which was the military wing of the Party), and the Party. I love history and used to collect Heer militaria along with US Army gear. Its actually a lot of fun and the majority of people are normal guys who just love history. However, you will run into the occasional off balance person who collects only SS gear and is very serious about it and other stuff. Those guys are a little scary.

 

yes, we could only hang a couple Wehrmacht field marshalls at Nuremberg...

[Shangas]

  On 3/22/2011 at 6:09 PM, stuartk said:

  On 2/16/2011 at 11:41 PM, Shangas said:

Although production was severely limited, I understand that the vacumatic-fill Parker '51' was a popular wartime pen because its design meant it could be carried by military personnel without the clip sticking out under the pocket-flap.

 

I have a wartime 51 FP and pencil set that aren't quite matched. I was told that it came this way, and that it was fairly common during the war for Parker to make up sets from whatever they had on hand.

 

As for military-issue pens, I remember hearing about military-issued ink tablet kits so you could mix up some ink out in the field and fill your pen with it. I don't remember the details though.

 

Pen-making materials (Steel, rubber, plastic) were pretty damn short during the war, so it doesn't surprise me that the set you have doesn't match. They would've been making pens out of whatever odds-and-ends they could find during the 1940s. In fact, a friend of mine has a very fine collection of wartime Parkers. They're all mismatched hobnobs of oddities, a testament to how much rationing was affecting the British (they were all English-made) pen industry during the War.