Learning Copperplate...

[Estefa]

For large lettering I use "whole arm" only, with the hand and fingers still. As lettering gets smaller I use "combined movement" with arm and fingers. For really small lettering I use fingers only.

 

Ken

 

Thank you Ken, that is good to know! I will try that and post when I think I made a step forward.

 

Stefanie

[caliken]

 

Thank you Ken, that is good to know! I will try that and post when I think I made a step forward.

 

Stefanie

I should have added that all of this is purely instinctive and I've never consciously studied how it should be done.

It just seems obvious to me that very large lettering is impossible with just finger movement and tiny writing is impracticable with "muscular movement" with the hand still.

 

Ken

[Estefa]

And again, thank you, Ken! I never started to think about pen grip or arm movements before I started learning Copperplate. Writing more expressively or with other tools is more intuitive (at least for me). Copperplate is just such an exact script, on the other hand there are these extremely free looking swirls and flourishes and I started reading and thinking. I hope it is like you wrote and will become more naturally with practice.

 

Stefanie

[thang1thang2]

I should have added that all of this is purely instinctive and I've never consciously studied how it should be done.

It just seems obvious to me that very large lettering is impossible with just finger movement and tiny writing is impracticable with "muscular movement" with the hand still.

 

Ken

 

Considering almost every book I've ever read considering ornamental penmanship, spencerian, the palmer method, etc (all of those books were incredibly detailed in how to hold the pen, how to sit, how to use your arm, etc) I have only ever seen your advice advocated, I'd say you're on the right track.

 

Madarasz was said to have used purely finger movement for his smallest letters, combined movement for his larger letters, and he would write signatures, capitals and flourishes full arm. It makes sense, to me. Stabilizing your arm completely means that your fingers can move with the most delicacy possible which is necessary for small writing. However if you plant the entire arm you have zero mobility so you need to shift every letter, thus, they learned to plant only the very back muscles of the arm and then move the arm ever so slightly to help the letters be in the right place. Now you only need to move your paper every 3-4 letters in order to maintain perfect slant. And for the larger letters or movements, you needed to move your pen a lot so rather than moving the wrist, which would change pen angle and other undesirable things, they would move the rest of the arm instead thus full-movement.

 

Each calligrapher, I believe, had their own interplay between arm and fingers that they used. Some used a little more shoulder movement, some used less, some used none. I personally am in the 'less, but still using it' category. And I certainly am full arm movement for capitals, or combined for very tiny capitals.

 

I would think that combined movement would be more utilized in Copperplate than Spencerian, actually, as you would want more control over your fingers for exact shading where you didn't need that so much since spencerian is rarely shaded. As such, you would want to move the shoulder a little more to make the shades more even. (That's just how I see it)

[sniper910]

estefa-your writing is coming along beautifully. what x height are you writing at? keep up the good work and please share more!!

 

ke

[Estefa]

Hi Sniper, I am glad you like my writing - thanks!

 

I wrote the black practice sheet with an x-height of 5 mm, the walnut ink sheet and the poem with 6,5 mm. The birthday card I wrote without guidelines, I guess also about 6-7 mm x-height.

 

I will share when I have more - I am working on my flourishes and capitals …

 

Stefanie

[sniper910]

finally completed a practice sheet using the tripod grip. it take a little getting used to, but my fingers don't feel so tense which is a good thing. not just have to practice control. written at a 5mm x-height

 

 

[Estefa]

Here is my newest experiment with a lot of flourishes. It's a little bit too much I guess but that is insofar intentional as I want to learn it. The end-of-line flourishes are somehow stupid, I really must find a better way to do this. There are other parts I am not so happy with – keeping the slant constant etc., the "f"s tend to get too bold – but as this was NOT my first try with this poem I didn't want to write it again!

 

Before I started I also filled quite some pages with random curves like Ken advised – that helped a lot! I am curious what you think.

 

Also I tried here a new nib (the Gillot 303), I am testing a lot at the moment to find the right mixture between flexible but not overly so for smaller x-heights (5mm here), and not too "nervous" (so that it is too difficult to keep the line boldness constant).

 

Stefanie

[thang1thang2]

finally completed a practice sheet using the tripod grip. it take a little getting used to, but my fingers don't feel so tense which is a good thing. not just have to practice control. written at a 5mm x-height

 

 

Unfortunately, your image is very small. I cannot see it in great detail, even after having downloaded the image. Can you upload a larger one? It looks fine from what I can tell, but Copperplate's beauty is in the subtleties and they don't show up in your image.

 

@Estefa. Your progress is looking good. However, I might suggest holding entirely off of the flourishes until you have developed more skill. in the olden days, people practiced business penmanship for over 6 months before even learning the fancier ornamental penmanship. The same type of patience applies equally well to copperplate. This, of course, doesn't mean you HAVE to only do drills for months on end, it just means that I would suggest holding off on the flourishes until you have a steady base to go off of.

 

The Gillott 303 is a very flexible nib. As such, I would encourage you to suggest trying your writing at 1cm x-height. The larger writing will allow you a very close up view of your writing as larger writing tends to show errors more boldly. It will be a good exercise in maintaining a constant pressure, as well. Your capitals seem very flamboyant, and I do not know their source. What instructional materials are you using to learn Copperplate/Engrossers?

 

Many of your letters seem formed wrong from the instructional materials I am familiar with. However, they might be closer to the ones you are using.

[sniper910]

Thang1thang2-Thanks, I didn't notice that. I'll try to upload a larger picture.

[Estefa]

Hi thang1thang2, thanks for your reply!

I understand your critique regarding the letterformes! You can find my instructional material in my previous post #1114. I used the above-mentioned sources + all kind of things I found; I can say that I just invented some of the letterforms. – So apart from the other flaws regarding slant, line boldness etc. this is admittedly not exactly textbook Copperplate – that's why I called it an experiment. So maybe I just posted it in the wrong thread . Sorry for that!

Here are two of my current practice sheets which are more orthodox. X-height here is at 7,5 mm.

Regards, Stefanie

[thang1thang2]

Hi thang1thang2, thanks for your reply!

I understand your critique regarding the letterformes! You can find my instructional material in my previous post #1114. I used the above-mentioned sources + all kind of things I found; I can say that I just invented some of the letterforms. – So apart from the other flaws regarding slant, line boldness etc. this is admittedly not exactly textbook Copperplate – that's why I called it an experiment. So maybe I just posted it in the wrong thread . Sorry for that!

Here are two of my current practice sheets which are more orthodox. X-height here is at 7,5 mm.

Regards, Stefanie

 

You didn't post it in the wrong thread at all. This just happens to be the "learning copperplate" thread, so I assumed that by experiment you were only referring to the flourishes and not the letterforms itself.

 

Your other practice sheets are looking very nice. You seem to be having a bit of trouble with the capitals and the compound curves in the lower-case letters. Another thing that would probably help you is to practice squaring off your letters. Of course, that depends on whether you want to keep copperplate at a "faster" handwriting method, or to evolve into the slow-stately and perfectionistic Engrosser's script.

 

You also seem to be suffering from the "letter not stroke" syndrome. As in, you're treating the individual letters as letters rather as composites of the individual strokes they are.

[luminesce]

 

You also seem to be suffering from the "letter not stroke" syndrome. As in, you're treating the individual letters as letters rather as composites of the individual strokes they are.

 

Please, can you explain what exactly it is you see in Estefa's practise that makes you say that?

It's a fantastic observation, but I couldn't begin to make it myself.

 

 

Elizabeth

[smk]

Stefanie - your latest work looks pretty good to me. Your writing has a flow that is very attractive and while it might not give you enough time to form the strokes perfectly, it does lend a fluidity to the writing which is special in its own right. The goal should be to achieve both, you are just coming at it from a different direction.

 

As for the flourishes around the majucules - I'd say loosen your arm a bit and make them freely. For example, in the very first majuscule 'B', the 'tail' part seems constrained (as it does in other places too). You'll get the hang of it soon if you just let it flow naturally.

 

I agree with thang1thang2's excellent observation about letters-not-strokes. For example, the letters B, T, P, R, S are built around the same basic stem stroke. In your practice you seem to be writing the whole letter rather than building it around the stem stroke. I hope this makes sense.

 

Salman

[smk]

finally completed a practice sheet using the tripod grip. it take a little getting used to, but my fingers don't feel so tense which is a good thing. not just have to practice control. written at a 5mm x-height

 

 

 

Sniper - the image is too small for detailed feedback but at this point your practice should focus more on how the pen feels in your hand rather than the results you are getting with them.

 

This is an excellent opportunity for you to develop a feel for arm movement with the tripod grip. Just imagine your fingers are not capable of any movement after you form the grip - now draw some circles or letters in a large size (at least 1 cm high). I'm sure you'll be surprised at what you can do.

 

Salman

[Mickey]

 

Sniper - the image is too small for detailed feedback but at this point your practice should focus more on how the pen feels in your hand rather than the results you are getting with them.

 

This is an excellent opportunity for you to develop a feel for arm movement with the tripod grip. Just imagine your fingers are not capable of any movement after you form the grip - now draw some circles or letters in a large size (at least 1 cm high). I'm sure you'll be surprised at what you can do.

 

Salman

Excellent advice. It also may help to visualize the shape first, then let your eyes and all that magical firmware between your ears guide the pen point. Don't try to guide the pen directly.

[sniper910]

Thank you salman and Mickey. I'll put that to practice and post results when I get a chance

[thang1thang2]

 

Please, can you explain what exactly it is you see in Estefa's practise that makes you say that?

It's a fantastic observation, but I couldn't begin to make it myself.

 

 

Elizabeth

 

It's the fact that she is a beginner. When a beginner is drawing a letter, they will do it one of two ways. They will either draw the letter "as a letter" and thus you will see certain characteristics come into play. Many of the strokes will look slightly different, the letter will look a little too "handwritten", letters that should be identical (a and d for example) won't be even close, etc.

 

However, if a beginner tries to write the letters as the strokes themselves, rather than the letters, they might have the opposite problem. Spacing will be a very large problem. You might have an 'o' shape, with the stem of the a coming in a little too far on the right. The d and t will look identical in the stem, but the d will have the o spaced wrong, etc. In the end, it will look better from a technical skill standpoint as you're much more consistent (even if there are errors in the shapes themselves). With skill, the spacing becomes correct, and legibility improves.

 

I guess it's the difference between trying to draw a face with the whole drawing the outline, coloring it in, etc vs drawing the face by blocking in all the shadows, using no hard lines, and going for the form of the face rather than the face itself.

 

In drawing Engrosser's script properly, you might be better off thinking of it not as writing, handwriting, or anything of that sort, but as engraving on paper. Every stroke meticulously formed in its own right, put together in a certain pattern to give the appearance of a written hand; much as shadows, properly shaded in on a page, give the illusion of depth, and from that depth, a face is born.

[Estefa]

@ thang1thang2: thanks again for your reply and your comments! I am working to learn / develop a handwriting Copperplate style, not Engrosser's script.

@ salman: also thank you for your hints! I am glad you like the overall appearance – I have seen some of your scripts in the forum and so I know that coming from you it's a compliment! (Also I admire these beautiful, unusual Pen holders you create!)

I know that I write sometimes too fast. My normal handwriting is superfast! Copperplate already forced me to slow down a lot …

Working on the loosening up … also Ken told me always to do some random curve exercises before writing capitals / flourishes. It's true that it helps a lot.

I will post again when I have something new worth showing. Thanks,

Stefanie

[luminesce]

thang1thang2: Thank you! You're as masterful a teacher as calligrapher

 

I'm swinging from one end of that spectrum to the other. Hopefully I will find a sweet-spot in the middle somewhere.