Learning Copperplate...

[SPark9625]

The book Ken recommends has very complete and comprehensive instructions. I don't think you need anything else if you study from this material.

 

I used (and still do) the lessons from 'Engraver's Script by W.A. Baird' when learning and for practice. In fact, I am about to embark on re-learning this hand as I have not had a chance for regular practice for a long time and could use some brushing up.

 

It won't be for a couple of weeks though but I expect to be fairly regular after that.

 

Salman

 

 

Hi,

 

Just wanted to ask you a quick question.

 

The Engraver's Script by W.A. Baird only has seven pages - is this actually all or am I missing something?

 

 

 

 

I am occasionally asked for recommendations for the study of "Copperplate" writing.

 

I always start with Dick Jackson's "Copperplate Calligraphy" (out of print but still occasionally available on e-Bay.) I'm self-taught in the style using only this book. I disagree with a few of his ideas, but in general, it's an excellent source of instructional information on Copperplate handwriting.

 

If those interested in taking their studies a stage further, there are two great books which are free and available for download from IAMPETH.

 

Firstly, "The Art of Writing" by John Jenkins c1813 contains IMO the clearest and by far, the most comprehensive instructions in Copperplate writing I've ever seen. The examples are truly beautiful and are remarkably close to the 18th century copperplate ideals.

 

Secondly, "Noyes's Penmanship" by Enoch Noyes, contain's equally beautiful examples. His pages of small (x height 2mm) writing are truly accomplished.

 

I urge anyone interested, to download and print off these two books - they're FREE!

 

Joe Vitolo's drawn engrosser's script on IAMPETH, is very fine indeed and is, in general, close to the original style.

 

In "The Zanerian Manual of Alphabets and Engrossing" the pages by E A Lupfer on "Roundhand or Engrosser's script" display good examples with clear instructions but one deviation which seem out of place to me, is the marked tendency to bend certain downstrokes which does nothing to enhance the style IMO. In fairness, the style is just called 'Roundhand' and no reference is made to its 18th century origin.

 

I haven't included "Madarasz Script" here, because I feel that, fine as it is, the departure from 'classic' Copperplate is too great for inclusion in this listing.

 

Finally, but by no means last, beg borrow, steal or (preferably) buy a copy of George Bickham's "The Universal Penman". It's inexpensive and totally indespensable, in my view.

 

There are other books in my collection, but nothing I can wholeheartedly recommend.

 

There will be, of course, be many I haven't found yet (so much to do - so little time!).

 

Ken

 

 

Hi,

 

I am a total beginner in copperplate and have just ordered the necessary requirements for writing (oblique penholder, nibs and inks) Meanwhile, I wanted to read around the subject as much as possible, and this was really helpful!

 

Could I ask you if starting with "The art of Writing" is fine, as the "Copperplate Calligraphy" by Dick Jackson is out of print, as you've said? To be more specific, could I just use "the Art of Writing" book and learn most of copperplate?

 

There are just too much information around, and I am trying to restrict the information I am getting at the moment. I would like to just pick one book and finish it, before I go any further. In this case, choosing "The Art of Writing" - is this a good choice?

 

I think I am asking the obvious, but I just wanted to confirm the answer

 

I am planning to use "The Art of Writing" to learn copperplate, and then get myself a copy of "The Universal Penman" to get further reference.

[sniper910]

i'm thinking of trying the tripod grip mentioned by ken. i remember attempting it earlier before i had to take a break. is there anywhere that can explain the grip and how to move your arm and hand as one unit using this grip?

[caliken]

I am planning to use "The Art of Writing" to learn copperplate, and then get myself a copy of "The Universal Penman" to get further reference.

That's what I would do. John Jenkins gives very full and detailed instructions and 'The Art of Writing' is really all you need to get started. I would also download 'Noyes's Penmanship' by Enoch Noyes which contains truly beautiful examples with instructions. 'The Universal Penman' is a wonderful book and is really inexpensive.

 

Ken

[sniper910]

can someone explain the benefit to using the tripod grip rather than the regular grip used to hold the pen when writing in copperplate script? i've been practicing with the tripod grip the last few days and it's still shaky when i write. i know i need to dedicate more time to my practice sheets with this grip, just making sure that it will benefit my writing

[Mickey]

can someone explain the benefit to using the tripod grip rather than the regular grip used to hold the pen when writing in copperplate script? i've been practicing with the tripod grip the last few days and it's still shaky when i write. i know i need to dedicate more time to my practice sheets with this grip, just making sure that it will benefit my writing

Is it possible you have misunderstood the instruction for the grip, because there is nothing irregular about the 'tripod grip?' It is the standard grip and has been for who knows how long. Tripod is simple a descriptive label for the grip recommended in most penmanship manuals written during the past 2 centuries. There are variants, but most of the differences are insignificant. For example, my version of the grip has my palm more or less parallel to the desk. This mode was more common in the 19th century and the first half of the 20th. The modern version has the wrist rotated 30-45 degree clockwise compared to mine. Take a look at Ken's grip (caliken). It is beautiful example of the modern tripod. I can write in this position, but prefer the older style. It fits my hands better. (My hands are large, with long fingers.) The important point is that our hands attach to the pen exactly the same way: 3 points of contact - thumb and first two fingers - the pen trapped more than held. There is little pressure.

 

The advantages are numerous. The grip is secure but relaxed, reducing the possibility of cramping and fatigue. A properly executed tripod grip puts the nib on the page with minimal pressure. Again, if executed correctly, it presents the nib to the paper at a stable (and controllable) angle. These last two attributes are particularly important for pointed pen work (Copperplate, Spencerian). Tripod allows for a smooth transition between finger, arm, and shoulder movements. Most formal (Western) hands are difficult, if not nearly impossible, with any other grip.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Mickey

[caliken]

From time to time, on most of the topics concerning flexible pointed nibs, the same problem is raised again and again. The ink doesn't flow properly - either it sits in a globule on the end of the nib and won't shift or it deposits itself in one flood. There have been many good suggestions, and yet the problem seems to persist.

 

It occured to me that I rarely have any problem in this regard and that it may have something to do with the following :-

 

After you've removed the oil from a new nib, using whichever method you prefer, don't touch the pointed end again while you're fitting it in the penholder. The slightest tansfer of natural grease from the fingers can set you right back to the beginning.

 

A simple point perhaps, but worth remembering

 

Ken

Edited September 9, 2013 by caliken

[sniper910]

thanks for the explanation mickey. when i hold my pen i usually have 4 fingers in contact with the pen and noticed i have quite a bit of pressure when i hold it, which may partly be the cause of my hand cramps and some of the shakey lines, although i know beautiful lines come with practice. gonna continue practicing with this grip

[Mickey]

thanks for the explanation mickey. when i hold my pen i usually have 4 fingers in contact with the pen and noticed i have quite a bit of pressure when i hold it, which may partly be the cause of my hand cramps and some of the shakey lines, although i know beautiful lines come with practice. gonna continue practicing with this grip

Why waste our time by asking for advice when you seem to think you know it all?

[sniper910]

Why waste our time by asking for advice when you seem to think you know it all?

not once did i say i knew it all, which is why i'm asking. all i did was state what i noticed about myself after your explanation

[smk]

Sniper - of course you can learn to write beautiful Copperplate with a four fingered grip. If JC Ryan could do it without hands, I'm sure an awkward grip can only be a temporary hindrance. But why have any hindrance at all?

 

It takes a bit of effort to change one's habit but I assure you the tripod grip will help you with all your writing, not just Calligraphy.

 

Salman

[sniper910]

thanks salman. still giving this tripod grip a try. my hand seems a little more relaxed trying this. just trying to give this grip a fair chance before giving up and using my regular grip. like you stated, it could help with all my writing so why not give it a shot right? thank you

[sniper910]

holy smokes, never heard of JC Ryan. but wow! no hands and had penmanship like that? that's amazing and dedication!

[crystaltigress]

That's incredible motivation Salman... I didn't know anything about JC Ryan either, and I have to say- WOW. Makes me want to practice with gusto if anything!

[Estefa]

Hi everyone - I am new here on this thread and first thank you for all this wonderful work, hints, discussion! I read the whole thread and would now like to show my recent practice sheets and hear if someone would have some suggestions or critique.

 

I work mainly after the 2 books by Eleanor Winter, "Mastering Copperplate Calligraphy" and "Italic and Copperplate Calligraphy", but also use for inspiration "The Universal Penman" and a lot of stuff on the internet (for example here in the Fountainpennetwork). At the moment I write with a Century oblique holder (waiting for one of Brians beauties!) equipped with a Gillot 404 but find it still a little bit too flexible (for writing x-hight between 5 to 7 mm). I changed nibs a lot because in the beginning I thought "the more flex the better". Also I started with a straight pen holder (to be honest I had never even heard of an oblique and found it very strange in the beginning)!

 

What I work on: I have mainly problems with keeping the downstrokes consistent in weight (f's, Capitals in general) and in not getting shaky when flourishing. So I am working on my capitals and flourishes, and in writing out sheets that look good as a whole (I mean that it gets a beautiful page, quote or whatever).

 

So here are two "normal" practice sheets (for me the most difficult capitals are E and D), a page with a poem i tried to write better the second time (still problems with the second capital S for example …), and a bit of greeting card for my niece.

 

Hope to hear from somebody!

 

Stefanie

 

[caliken]

You don't say how long you've been working at this, but you've made a great start. Your shaded strokes are nicely proportionate with the size of the lettering, and the overall effect is most attractive. The slight shakiness disappears in time with confidence and experience. With any flourishing, try to visualise the entire shape before you start so that you don't have to slow up halfway. The secret is to go at an even pace, neither too fast or too slow, letting the weight of the nib do most of the work. Try the loosening up excercise of filling a sheet with random curved shapes, shading on downstrokes and concentrating on keeping even curves throughout. Unlike your minuscule writing which is even and flowing there is a maked contrast with the capital D (?) in your last example where the shakiness betrays uncertainty.

 

You're well on the way and producing nice lettering.

 

BTW I can't personally recommend Eleanor Winter's Copperplate, as her letter formations are too different from the classic "Universal Penman" shapes. I feel that studying both at the same time could be confusing. I suggest downloading and printing off a copy of "The Art of Writing" by John Jenkins on the IAMPETH site. It's free and full of wonderful examples and instructions.

 

Ken

Edited September 11, 2013 by caliken

[caliken]

 

thanks salman. still giving this tripod grip a try. my hand seems a little more relaxed trying this. just trying to give this grip a fair chance before giving up and using my regular grip. like you stated, it could help with all my writing so why not give it a shot right? thank you

 

At school and as a teenager, I used a strange penhold and made a conscious effort to change to the tripod grip. It did feel awkward at first but it's well worth while persevering and you know that you're there when your hand automatically goes to the shape. There has to be a good reason when everyone recommends it!

 

Ken

[Estefa]

Ken, thank you for your detailed feedback - it is most appreciated and encouraging!

 

 

I have been drawing and writing (without following any formal script) with pointed pens for years. Then I participated in a Copperplate capitals workshop in April, which was great and inspiring, but soon found out that without really studying the minuscules I wouldn't get nowhere (except to devellop a personal pointed pen script). So I have been working at this seriously with minuscules, spacing, grid and everything since the end of May - that is when I bought the Winters books.

I see absolutely your point regarding the Winters books - I had already read your comment for example about the form of the small "n". I don't follow her slaveshly regarding the letterforms, I hope you can see that. - I simply think some of her exercises are quite helpul, and it forced me to learn the miniscules one by one. And some of her tips regarding layout etc. are also useful, I think. Before I had her books I wrote always whole words or sentences or shopping lists and there wasn't much improvent. And that was long before I found the Fountain Pen Network!

 

Thanks for the explanation of how to get in the flow with flourishes! I will do that. Yes I know what you mean with that D, I wasn't certain which form of D to use and that shows I guess - and I was in a bit of a hurry …

 

I have a silly question - do you recommand to flourish with "muscular" or "whole arm" movement like in Spencerian? I started learning that as well (find it very difficult) but I could imagine that at least for flourishes or bigger capitals this method could work (at least if a person has been practising this way longer ten me). Because the finger movement is so limited. It works great for me with the miniscules - with the shading I could not imagine doing that with "free arm" - but maybe for the flourishes? I am sorry if anyone else has already asked that, I have read the whole thread, but it is very long and it is possible that I forgot it …

 

I downloaded now the Jenkins, will study it and say thank you!

 

Stefanie

[caliken]

For large lettering I use "whole arm" only, with the hand and fingers still. As lettering gets smaller I use "combined movement" with arm and fingers. For really small lettering I use fingers only.

 

Ken

Edited September 11, 2013 by caliken

[smk]

 

 

Hi,

 

Just wanted to ask you a quick question.

 

The Engraver's Script by W.A. Baird only has seven pages - is this actually all or am I missing something?

 

I'm sorry for the late reply, I missed it completely.

 

Yes - the Baird instructions are only seven pages but they take one through the complete set of minuscules. Ken's recommendation of 'The Art of Writing' by John Jenkins (found here) provide complete instructions.

 

I also learned a lot from Dr. Joe Vitolo's videos on Copperplate.

 

Salman

[sniper910]

Thanks Ken. Yeah I figured there must be a reason so many people use and recommend this grip. I think I never really gave myself a fair chance to develop using it before. But after just a few days I noticed that my hairlines are coming out much better. I've gone back to just the exercises rather than writing words for now in goes that I can get things more consistent than before

Edited September 11, 2013 by sniper910