Learning Copperplate...

[varejart]

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/textforFPN2601-1.jpghttp://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/WillingtonClark850.jpg

Yes, I can see. Maybe put the right shade on 'o', breaks the flow, too. Right?

I like both, they looks right to me. I am not the best to make any analisys, but aparently any slant deviation on second way is more noted than the first. So, who writes that way must be very good as you.

For me the most hard thing is to make these beginning curved shades like in botton turn of u, and top of n, for example. I think I've made thousands of it on Engrosser's Script, which is more straight and it makes harder to me to try to make the English Roundhand.

 

And thank you very much. I am studying the capitals and refining the lowercase letters like to make 'm' with same shade as 'w' and MANY others. Most of these things came with practice, which I do every day. Hopefuly someday I will master for complete this style.

[crystaltigress]

Well here's what I've been busy with today... I've discovered that it wasn't particularly the size of the x-height but instead my way of doing things. I'd made a guideline sheet to place under my cotton comp pad and really struggled to see the light blue. This is what I've done today with printed direct guidelines.

As you can see the paper is still not the best, I used the copier at work and other then knowing it's Hammermill paper I don't know the weight. There is a problem with picking up paper fuzz in some of the wet crosses, especially with the 'x'.

 

I feel much better working like this! I know I still have quite a bit of work to do, but just that change has really been a blessing.

 

Been doing some serious reading (The Art of Writing being the major contributor) over the last few days, and finally got back to practicing!

 

 

The ascender and descender loops are still giving me are hard time, and I really struggle with 's', 'x' and 'z'. Not even ATTEMPTING capitals yet but I have the hankering... slowing down and working on my spacing (which is not any where close to perfect, but it's better)

 

Making a wish list for my birthday coming up in a few months, and it is literally nothing but calligraphy supplies.

 

Thank you all for the tips, and free study books are always a plus! Thank you Caliken, and I will be begging for a copy of the Universal Penman until I get my way!

[caliken]

Been doing some serious reading (The Art of Writing being the major contributor) over the last few days, and finally got back to practicing!

Thank you all for the tips, and free study books are always a plus! Thank you Caliken, and I will be begging for a copy of the Universal Penman until I get my way!

You must have been practicing hard! There is a considerable improvement from your post #1063 of a few days ago. So much so, that they don't look as though they were written by the same person!

With 'The Art of Writing' you are now studying from excellent source material and it certainly shows. All of the writing in your post #1082 is well-balanced in shading, consistency of the letter shapes and slope IMHO.

 

Ken

Edited August 27, 2013 by caliken

[crystaltigress]

Thank you Ken! I knew I had improved but it's so nice to hear it! I'm now doing more exercises to make sure my miniscules and spacing are correct before I move on to capitals. Doing some panagrams to make sure I have the balance right.

 

It truely was a wonderful thing to realize I needed the guidelines on the paper... the way I had been doing it, it was a struggle to see them, and it showed! I'm back to the 6 mm x height with my new-found set up and it's much more comfortable to me.

 

I've been sticking with my angled table, there is a level of comfort there. I also think sub-conciously sitting at it puts me in 'the zone' if you will... and on a side note, the zebra G has finally started taking ink after wiping it down a few times with an alcohol pad and letting it dry. It is unreal what I've tried to get it to accept some ink, but at least now I know what the nib likes.

 

Currently doing form exercises (a d a d a d) on a new Canson Pro Layout pad, and my experience so far by working on the front is nice. It seems much smoother then the Boris pad I had been working on. I am going to try to work on a reverse side per another post on this forum and see how that feels.

 

And penmans ink is right up there on my birthday wish list!

 

I'm really looking forward to seeing Varejart's work on Capitals!!!

Edited August 28, 2013 by crystaltigress

[crystaltigress]

I've just discovered a part of my problem forming the ascender and descender loops, and it's probably because of my troublesome muscle rigidity. I find I'm not moving my arm at all. All my movement in forming the letters comes from hand and fingers.

I still have posture issues, and in the process of paying very VERY close attention to the way I hold myself and my pen, I noticed that I tend to twist the pen on the long upstrokes rather than keeping the holder in one spot and moving it fluidly.

 

I suppose that's a breakthrough for me personally. Is that a common problem? Any genius ideas on how to fix it other then what I'm doing? (more practice with awareness this is a problem I need to correct)

 

I've been trying to find the right speed today in my practice while keeping in mind to keep my eye on my posture and hand/arm tension. The letters do suffer when you go extremely slow, but it's difficult to maintain correct form, find the right speed, and in the meantime try to kill the death grip. (Which is improving, the dent is still there on my middle finger but my hand does not hurt nearly as bad as it had been). Work in progress at best.

 

I'm very excited to say I've got a Camlin Trinity FP on the way from a PiF, and hope that it helps me further in losing the death grip. I'm planning on using it as a daily writer, which from what I've read it is very good for. The cheap ones I have are a struggle to use (get started, maintain flow, etc) and certainly do not assist in my finger tension. Why I think squeezing a FP will make it work better is a mind trick I know... but that's what I do. LOL

[Mickey]

I've just discovered a part of my problem forming the ascender and descender loops, and it's probably because of my troublesome muscle rigidity. I find I'm not moving my arm at all. All my movement in forming the letters comes from hand and fingers.

I still have posture issues, and in the process of paying very VERY close attention to the way I hold myself and my pen, I noticed that I tend to twist the pen on the long upstrokes rather than keeping the holder in one spot and moving it fluidly.

 

I suppose that's a breakthrough for me personally. Is that a common problem? Any genius ideas on how to fix it other then what I'm doing? (more practice with awareness this is a problem I need to correct)

I don't know if this qualifies as genius, but I've found the best solution to tension and over-active fingers is allowing the fingers to be inert (dead meat: not tense, not loose, mostly just not there) and concentrating on the movement of the pen point, as if it were the primary actor. Put another way, let your fingers, hand, and arm be steered by the point, and let your eyes guide the point. Look not at where the point is, but where you want it to move. If you stare at the point, you will stop moving naturally and your fingers will take sole charge of your writing, taking the rest of your body out of the equation.

BTW, great improvement since your original post.

[caliken]

I have a death grip on my pen. It worsens the harder I try to focus on the forms. I've about murdered my middle finger, who has taken the brunt of my torture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great advice from Mickey.

 

If you haven't already done so, try adopting the 'tripod' grip.

 

Also, try to avoid curving the fingers too much. If you can straighten the fingers down the pen shaft a little, you'll find that the power of your grip will automatically lessen.

 

Ken

Edited August 28, 2013 by caliken

[DemisM]

 

Been at it a good week... so tough! :/

Edited August 29, 2013 by DemisM

[medicalcpa]

After five weeks of practicing, I wanted to include my own practice specimens and ask for feedback. I did not want to clutter my post with images, so I've included the link to an album containing my practice sheets.

 

http://imgur.com/a/eX4Uu#0

 

Please look them over and tell me what I can improve upon.

[smk]

 

 

Been at it a good week... so tough! :/

 

This is great progress for one week

 

Which instructions/exercises are you following?

 

Salman

[smk]

After five weeks of practicing, I wanted to include my own practice specimens and ask for feedback. I did not want to clutter my post with images, so I've included the link to an album containing my practice sheets.

 

http://imgur.com/a/eX4Uu#0

 

Please look them over and tell me what I can improve upon.

 

The first thing that came to my mind when seeing your exercise sheets was....'Please don't stop practicing!' You have a very good eye for form and balance and your practice sheets are a joy to look at. Please continue with your studies and keep sharing your progress with us.

 

The only advice I can think of is to introduce a bit of structure to your practice sessions. Pick an element to learn/improve/fix and spend a session (15-20 minutes) on just that. The goal is not just to learn to write it correctly but to get to a point where you no longer write it incorrectly.

 

Salman

[crystaltigress]

@medicalcpa... the biggest thing I noticed is that your not using the baseline enough. I see how your using the larger ascender and descender spaces rather then the x-height spot. I think I understand why, but IMHO it's a bad habit to get into. If your more comfortable with a larger size, then find a bigger guideline that will allow you to use more of your paper.

 

I understand not wanting to waste a single blank area on a sheet of paper, but it may be doing you more harm then good by not following the guidelines. Search IAMPETH, they have a ton of guideline sheets you can pick from. Larger did do me some good, but I do find myself fairly comfortable at the 6 mm x-height now. Do what is comfortable for you.

 

Other then that I agree that you have a great eye for the forms your making. Your obviously going to excel at this difficult hand once you get more practice in. I just would hate if you were practicing incorrectly and have to work harder.

[varejart]

My attempt to emulate the English Roundhand after about 4~5 days of study.
After much engrosser's script practice, since january without stop, I acquired much more control.
I didn't follow any instructional books, just my 'eyes', so it is, probably, not perfect.
I hope you like it.

Here is some of my firsts strokes:
I hope it inspire someone

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a515/varejart/Imagem_zpsb816acba.jpg

 

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a515/varejart/Imagem002_zps966c0386.jpg

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a515/varejart/Imagem001_zpsc0150b7f.jpg

Edited September 2, 2013 by varejart

[medicalcpa]

@ smk: Thanks for the advice. I actually began trying what you suggested before I read this thread this morning, because I realized that I should begin focusing my practice on the things I should improve. I also remember that you'd mentioned that you did something similar, which I thought was a good idea.

 

@crystaltigress: But I am writing within guidelines. Not with Joe Vitolo's preprinted guides, because I'm not yet confident enough to write at a small x-height. However, the ascender spaces allow me to write larger letters without throwing the paper away. The other preprinted guides are for a 3mm x-height which, when doubled, becomes 6mm. Since I started, I've been writing at 6mm or larger. The 3mm line also makes it easier to see where the midway point is, which is helpful for things like connectors. The way I see it, whether I use a preprinted 6mm guide, or write at 2x the height on a 3mm guide, I'd still be writing at 6mm, or 8mm, or some other multiple.

 

Lastly, I find that I've become a harsher critic of Copperplate, whether it's my own or someone else's. I'm now quicker to notice the flaws in people's work, despite the fact that mine is still imperfect. Has this happened to anyone else?

[caliken]

Lastly, I find that I've become a harsher critic of Copperplate, whether it's my own or someone else's. I'm now quicker to notice the flaws in people's work, despite the fact that mine is still imperfect. Has this happened to anyone else?

When you first start out, many examples look great and it's only with the heightened perception which comes from studying, that you begin to see the flaws in writing which you once thought of as perfect.

 

This is natural and is a necessary part of the learning process. As perception becomes more acute, so writing improves.

 

Ken

Edited September 3, 2013 by caliken

[caliken]

I didn't follow any instructional books, just my 'eyes', so it is, probably, not perfect.

I hope you like it.

 

 

I do like it, but I'm sure that I'd have liked it a lot more, if you had used guidelines.

 

I think that, good as your progress has been, you're making it unnecessarily difficult for yourself.

 

There's a popular misconception that using guidelines is somehow 'cheating'. Even experienced calligraphers use guidelines including slope lines, which can be later removed.

 

 

Ken

[crystaltigress]

@medicalcpa- I apologize, I guess I didn't look hard enough at your sheets to understand what you were doing. You've done a great job for 5 weeks. I did notice what your talking about with getting the forms practiced. It is a lot easier at large sizes to see what you need to work on, that I know!

Keep going and I can't wait to see your next round of practice.

 

I'm trying to have some structure in my practice and it's difficult since I can only get to it sporadically. That probably makes it even more important to structure it but -sheepish grin... I tend to let my hand do what ever practice it wants.

 

And I agree that a keener eye for any writing in this hand becomes more critical. I put it in the "research" category. You see what others do that doesn't work for your eye, but on the opposite end, you also see what does work, and it may work out that you'd like to incorporate it into your own writing.

 

I love that you chose the 'Speedball' version of the capital 'A'. I prefer it as well. Mrs. Winters version come out looking a bit too out of place. My preference of course.

Also the little "k", I've not gotten the bracket shape correct as yet and the Speedball version (of course I don't know what it is really called, but I look at it out of my Speedball book so there you have it. lol) is much easier to make and I like the looks of it when it's done correctly as well.

 

I guess my question is what source(s) have you been looking at to practice?

 

@varejart- I don't trust my eye even close enough to attempt this without guidelines, but if indeed you used none, I think you need to get some sort of instructional book, because you would excel at this hand with some instruction.

 

 

Both of you are making me green with envy. I've had to struggle with every little bit I've accomplished!

[crystaltigress]

@DemisM

I know how difficult it is!!! My only statement would be to back up and practice the strokes (not the letters just yet) until your comfortable with the pen, ink, and paper combo your working with. It is invaluable to making the letters as well as possible. I understand how frustrating it is not to be able to make the letterforms look any where close to what you see in a book or examples, and practicing the strokes will make it happen sooner.

Keep at it, you'll get there!

[crystaltigress]

Another practice sheet. I love the quote at the bottom, which is today's addition. I've gone ahead and darkened every other guideline on my JNB sheet, I will probably go ahead and do the other half to keep my eyes in line.

Please keep in mind I've really not worked on capitals at all, and I'm still trying to figure out which form of "r" to use...

 

I also have an incredibly hard time still with "e", especially when the join is high. Been fighting my pen and nib to allow me those pretty square cut offs, and they continue to elude me. I'll go back in and touch it up a tad mostly. Don't even ask me about 'x'. That thing is my bane.

 

I do think my 's' letterform is improving, still not sure if it's correct. They seem to increase in the consistency department so that makes me think I'm doing alright, even if it's not historically on an even keel.

 

I don't do well at the bottom of a page for some reason... not sure if it's because of the tangible increase in thickness from where my hand usually sits or not.

 

I think I'm getting the hang of spacing, I can see where my concentration lags in forms.

Picture was taken uphill, apologize about what appears to be a warped line!

 

Practice continues!!!

[varejart]

@caliken, @crystaltigress,

Sorry! I didn't explain why these image doesn't appears with guidelines, it is because I use it under the sheets that I am writing. this way:

(here I wrote 'caligrafia' in engrosser's script).

and I use it all the time! I never tryed without guidelines, and it would be probably a disaster. On my first strokes I was writing a bit fast and using a very thick guidelines, so I never hitted the same position, that is why it looks wavy.

When I said 'follow [...] just my eyes' I mean to develop my own way to emulate english roundhand, I am not sure, but I read somewhere that in that time they didn't used this flexible nibs that we have today, even less the oblique penholders. I am really not sure.
And I will for sure read instructional books.

Sorry, I hope you understand.
Thanks!