Learning Copperplate...

[smk]

varejart - the image you posted was not showing up for me. I'm including the link here for reference.

 

Copperplate by varejart

 

I think you are most definitely on the right track. You have a good control of the slant and the shading (the thick parts)are fairly uniform. The 'u' in 'que' and the 'o' in 'gostes' are particularly good.

 

Since you have a good idea of the basic forms, I think you will benefit from perfecting individual strokes. e.g. practice the stroke used in 'u', and then write the letters that use this stroke. This can be followed by the inverse of these strokes as in the letter 'n' and so on.

 

It will take a little discipline and a bit more perseverance but I think you'll have lovely Copperplate in a short time. We have had many good starts lately, I hope you will stick with it to the end.

 

Salman

Edited January 20, 2013 by smk

[fuchsiaprincess]

Varejart - that is amazing Copperplate for two weeks' worth of work. Keep it up! You will find it much easier once you get your oblique pen holder. Enjoy!

[varejart]

varejart - the image you posted was not showing up for me. I'm including the link here for reference.Copperplate by varejartI think you are most definitely on the right track. You have a good control of the slant and the shading (the thick parts)are fairly uniform. The 'u' in 'que' and the 'o' in 'gostes' are particularly good.Since you have a good idea of the basic forms, I think you will benefit from perfecting individual strokes. e.g. practice the stroke used in 'u', and then write the letters that use this stroke. This can be followed by the inverse of these strokes as in the letter 'n' and so on.It will take a little discipline and a bit more perseverance but I think you'll have lovely Copperplate in a short time. We have had many good starts lately, I hope you will stick with it to the end.Salman

Thank you so much, Salman! I have some dificulties with spacing and width of letters. I'll practice the u stroke as you said. When I am practicing I just can't see the time passing, this will be easy heh. I love calligraphy!

 

 

Varejart - that is amazing Copperplate for two weeks' worth of work. Keep it up! You will find it much easier once you get your oblique pen holder. Enjoy!

Thank you, fuchsiaprincess! I am training hard! hehehe I am already reading about it, how to hold this pen, what nibs don't fit(on a speedball oblique pen holder that I ordered)and other stuff.

 

-

 

I think I found the right group, who love fountain pens and calligraphy. I can't explain how much I love fountain pens, when I ordered my cheap Hero, I passed hours searching and admiring the fountain pens.

 

Thanks again, to all of you guys!

[MusinkMan]

After my first disastrous practice, I've decided to get a book, after all.

 

I know man, that stuff ain't easy. Hats off to those who conquer any discipline of the pointed pen. I so want to learn the "real thing", but I just got so frustrated trying to get the ink to behave with the nib. I don't have anyone to show me, so I proceeded with the trial and error thing. Iampeth is great for teaching letterforms, but I'm not even to that point yet. I can't even get the blasted pens to flow ink properly and consistently. I've watched youtube vids where guys load their dip pens with a little paintbrush, so I tried that. No luck...just more frustration. Out of the pens I "tried to use", I had the best luck with the Brause 66ef. That one seemed to be more "forgiving", would flow better (although it seemed I had to re-dip the thing every letter because it kept running out of ink; but every once in a while I would produce a word or two that looked surprisingly good to me.

 

You should be able to get a full line of text from a 66EF unless you are doing some very serious flexing. I assume you've cleaned the nib properly before the first use, so that leaves me thinking your choice of ink is off the mark. I don't know what you're using, but contrary to some people's opinions, hardly any fountain pen inks work very well with pointed pens unless liberally doctored with gum arabic, otherwise the pens write too wet, with results pretty much as you describe. McCaffery's Penman Black, Old World Iron Gall, a Higgins Eternal (with a dash of gum Arabic are among the inks which behave well with pointed pens. The walnut ink (from John Neal) that Salman recommended is also very good. If it doesn't behave, just keep adding the crystals until you get the flow you like.

 

Hey Mickey!

Higgins Eternal is what I was using. Sans the gum arabic (don't have any and haven't a clue how much to add). I dug out the ef66 this evening and preceeded to give it another go. I had better luck with it, taking the pen angle lower as Ken told me, I was holding it too "straight up" which caused all sorts of chaos as I'm sure you know. I was writing lower case...drew some little guidelines about 3/8" or so. I think I could get about 5 letters before it ran out of gas. But evidently I was using a poor paper for dip pens, as I got a horrible amount of bleed into the paper after the letter sat for 3 or 4 seconds. I switched to some bristol board and things got ever so much better. But bristol board is not cheap, especially just for practice.

[thang1thang2]

Some cheap cardstock should do the trick. You just want a high GSM (higher quality paper means you can go lower on the GSM, but we're looking for practice fodder here). That's what I use and it works great with sumi inks. I assume higgins eternal would bleed a tad more, but it shouldn't be too bad and the paper would be a lot cheaper than bristol.

[medicalcpa]

Yay, I can reply! This is a tip I got from Dr Joe Vitolo: Use 24lb paper. I got some Office Depot brand, 24lb inkjet paper yesterday, and there's no more feathering when I use Higgins Eternal. Office Depot was having a sale, and I got two 500-sheet reams of the paper for $10. The difference between this paper and copy paper is like night and day. Amazing what the right tools can do.

 

People say Higgins Eternal is a good beginner's ink, but I've found it to be finicky. It works well with high quality paper, but is terrible on cheap copy paper, and even worse on cheap cardstock (I've tried that before, thang1thang2).

Edited January 21, 2013 by medicalcpa

[MusinkMan]

Yay, I can reply! This is a tip I got from Dr Joe Vitolo: Use 24lb paper. I got some Office Depot brand, 24lb inkjet paper yesterday, and there's no more feathering when I use Higgins Eternal. Office Depot was having a sale, and I got two 500-sheet reams of the paper for $10. The difference between this paper and copy paper is like night and day. Amazing what the right tools can do.

 

People say Higgins Eternal is a good beginner's ink, but I've found it to be finicky. It works well with high quality paper, but is terrible on cheap copy paper, and even worse on cheap cardstock (I've tried that before, thang1thang2).

 

 

I was using 32 lb. paper, inkjet also. HP Premium Choice injet. That's the stuff that bled like a stuck pig. It could very well be the ink. Maybe I should order some Mcafferey's and see if that makes a difference.

 

I really feel like I have the potential to achieve a decent level of skill with the pointed pen...if I could just get the thing to behave for me. hahaha. That's like saying, "My children would be really good kids if I could get them to behave". LOL! But you know what I mean, I think...

[sniper910]

hello again everyone. started writing with a crows quill for copperplate which allows me to write at a smaller s height. and to salman and ken....if you remember a few months ago i had a hard time with my hairline strokes being too thick? well, i changed to higgins eternal, but i think my main problem was just a worn nib! so simple, just change the nib. i wanted to slap myself for not thinking of that. i think i just thought that metal on paper, the metal won't wear down that much. but one day i looked at my nib and just so happens it was at the perfect angle that i had seen that the tip was getting worn so i changed it immediately, and problem solved!

[caliken]

For those not familiar with the work, I’d like to draw attention to “The Art of Writing” by the

American Writing Master, John Jenkins.

 

This superb instruction book in English Roundhand (aka Copperplate) dates from 1813 and is now

available on the IAMPETH site. Although it’s a bit wordy, as is to be expected from the period, it’s

well worth reading thoroughly, as the instructions are extremely detailed and clearly written.

 

Above all, the quality of the lettering itself is quite superb, easily surpassing anything currently in

print. IMHO it is the equal of the quality of the engraved lettering in “The Universal Penman”.

 

I urge anyone seriously interested in this beautiful hand, to download and print off a copy of this

book in its entirety.

 

Ken

[thang1thang2]

For those not familiar with the work, I’d like to draw attention to “The Art of Writing” by the

American Writing Master, John Jenkins.

 

This superb instruction book in English Roundhand (aka Copperplate) dates from 1813 and is now

available on the IAMPETH site. Although it’s a bit wordy, as is to be expected from the period, it’s

well worth reading thoroughly, as the instructions are extremely detailed and clearly written.

 

Above all, the quality of the lettering itself is quite superb, easily surpassing anything currently in

print. IMHO it is the equal of the quality of the engraved lettering in “The Universal Penman”.

 

I urge anyone seriously interested in this beautiful hand, to download and print off a copy of this

book in its entirety.

 

Ken

 

I don't know how I missed that book the first time around, but I have certainly downloaded it now! That, and the Universal Penman, just amazing examples of Copperplate. Are there any other free materials you would recommend for learning Copperplate?

[smk]

The book Ken recommends has very complete and comprehensive instructions. I don't think you need anything else if you study from this material.

 

I used (and still do) the lessons from 'Engraver's Script by W.A. Baird' when learning and for practice. In fact, I am about to embark on re-learning this hand as I have not had a chance for regular practice for a long time and could use some brushing up.

 

It won't be for a couple of weeks though but I expect to be fairly regular after that.

 

Salman

[WestLothian]

For those not familiar with the work, I'd like to draw attention to "The Art of Writing" by the

American Writing Master, John Jenkins.

------

Above all, the quality of the lettering itself is quite superb, easily surpassing anything currently in

print. IMHO it is the equal of the quality of the engraved lettering in "The Universal Penman".

 

 

I find Jenkins' definitions of the capital "T" and "I" rather indistinct compared to earlier methods such as Alais.

The text refers to exactly the same sequence, the only difference being a shorter wave for the "I".

This use of a wave and a wavelet rather than a crossed "T" must have led to some potential confusion.

[JeffPDX2]

Salman,

 

You've made a great start. The basic principles are few, and easy to learn.

Try to maintain the same stroke weight throughout a piece of writing. The classic angle for Copperplate writing is 55 degrees from the horizontal. Try to maintain this angle throughout. In the exercises, try to keep the inter-stroke spacing even.

 

For squared tops and bottoms of the diagonal strokes in the first exercise, try this. Place the nib at the top of the stroke and press to open the tines then start the downstroke. At the foot, stop and lift the nib straight off the page so that the tines snap shut and give a clean edge to the stroke. To produce perfect squared-off terminals, often requires a little retouching after the letter has been completed.

 

As with every discipline, a little practice every day is better than a lot once a week.

 

You've made some very sound observations and you're already producing nice results with even stroke weight, consistent angle and good spacing - you're well on the way!

 

Ken

 

I was so delighted to see this post, Ken. I have been trying everything I can think of to try to make my tops square to the baseline, and although I can (on occasion :-) ) get nice sharp corners, the top of the stroke is a right angle to the stroke.....not parallel to the base line like your example exercise. I have tried rolling the pen as I make the initial spread to the tine and as I pause at the bottom of the stroke; that hasn't worked so well.

 

In the spirit of participation, I include the two images below. The first is a practice sheet from May 5th (ten days ago) ; the second is from today. I see progress, so I am heartened. Every once in a while, I draw a perfect letter....and it feels good.

 

I use Higgens Eternal Black ink.

 

I am left handed; I use a straight pen holder, and revel in my left handedness. :-)

 

I have been using Clairfontaine Triomphe paper, but it is expensive. Just ordered some Boris 9x12 Layout Pads from John Neal Books (about half the price of Triomphe); I will report on the quality when I get it.

 

I have a number of different nibs that I have tried, and my humble opinions:

• Gillott 303: Great hairlines, wonderfully responsive, but I catch the point on the upstroke. Is my hand to heavey? The angle of the pen nib to paper too steep? The first nib I tried was horrible; solved that problem by pitching it and trying another, but bottom line is that I find them to be a difficult nib. Lesson: Some nibs are bad, don't get too frustrated till you try another of the same type.
• Gill0tt 404: Hairlines are not very fine.
• Brause 361: Nice hairlines, holds a lot of ink, kind of in the middle of flexibility of the nibs I have tried. It was my favorite until I got...
• Nikko G: This nib works well for me, what can I say.
• Hunt 513 EF: Just tried it once, it was kind of stiff.
• Brause Rose nib: I did not get very fine hairlines with it; after several frustrating

If any of you are familiar with the Eleanor Winters "Mastering Copperplate Calligraphy" you might recognize the exercises on the practice sheets. I am slogging through them, and the book is full of helpful hints and examples of wrong letters. It's funny how often those 'wrong' examples help me.

 

I love watching the lines emerge from the nib and form the letters; writing has always been something I enjoy, and this takes it to a new level.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2013 by JeffPDX2

[Mickey]

 

I am left handed; I use a straight pen holder, and revel in my left handedness. :-)

 

I have been using Clairfontaine Triomphe paper, but it is expensive. Just ordered some Boris 9x12 Layout Pads from John Neal Books (about half the price of Triomphe); I will report on the quality when I get it.

 

 

The Boris Lay Pads are excellent, but try both sides. I find the back side accepts ink better with some inks than the front.

 

Left handed or not, you'll probably want to get an oblique holder. The lower rake angle of a properly adjusted flange can make the sharper nibs much easier to use and reduce their tendency to snag on upstrokes.

[crystaltigress]

I have spent a good part of an evening and morning reading this topic from stem to stern. It's very encouraging to know that others who want to learn this hand have went thru the same frustrations as I have. I've been practicing on and off and have many many m a n y sheets to prove it, but I must admit I'm frustrated.

I have tried to post something seperate however I think my laptop didn't save it, so I'll go again to try to explain the difficulties I seem to be having, and what I'm struggling with.

 

To begin, I'd like to clarify my minimal expertise is in broad pen work... I took up calligraphy about a year ago as a hobby and an artistic outlet. I do know the importance of varied opinions, research, and the like. However, this hand seems to be the most challenging self-taught. Light years away from it's broad edged company.

 

So here goes... Some of my problems I am very well aware of, others maybe would come to light if another brain picked at it a tad

 

First, I find myself having GREAT difficulty finding what physical position to practice in. I have a flat table surface, but I normally use a seperate angled table for my broad pen work. I've tried both, and no matter where I am I find myself hunkering over the work and tensing up dramatically. It probably looks comical. As for posture, and I am VERY aware of this.... I have a death grip on my pen. It worsens the harder I try to focus on the forms. I've about murdered my middle finger, who has taken the brunt of my torture.

 

I am currently experimenting on rectifying that.... by switching my 404 or Zebra G nib to the HORRID 303 that I previously hated. I plan on doing a few pages with that to see if my manner of it's responsiveness (aka softness if you will) that I can deter myself from pushing so God-awful hard to cause this strain. Thoughts??? (To further explain, I'm using a 6 mm baseline 3:2:3, a century oblique, cotton comp marker pad and go between Eternal with some gum added and Moon Palace Sumi)

 

It has been a bit and I probably need to start over with the forms. I tend to prefer a heaftier line weight with this hand as a matter of personal preference, or at least that is what the death grip says. Sigh.

I do have a dedicated workspace, which is great. The lighting is good, and the adjustable lamp makes it easy to maintain. I just have no idea which surface to stick with, or what would make it a bit easier for me to practice.

 

I am currently working with Mrs. Winters book, have frequented IAMPETH and a multitude of websites and blogs for tips, pointers, opinions and the like. This forum is very much appreciated, and feels like a bunch of friends studying for exams!

 

I will be sure to post pictures for review as soon as I am able.. I've been a lurker here for some time but have never posted until now.

 

 

[Mickey]

First, I find myself having GREAT difficulty finding what physical position to practice in. I have a flat table surface, but I normally use a seperate angled table for my broad pen work. I've tried both, and no matter where I am I find myself hunkering over the work and tensing up dramatically. It probably looks comical. As for posture, and I am VERY aware of this.... I have a death grip on my pen. It worsens the harder I try to focus on the forms. I've about murdered my middle finger, who has taken the brunt of my torture.

 

 

Try this: sit up a bit straighter and concentrate on moving your last two fingers around the table rather than the pen point. Forget about the forms for a while (ditch the 303, go back to the G) and get used to moving the pen and hand as a single unit. Don't try to make your fingers immobile. Instead, allow them to be inactive or at least less active. Continue forgetting about the letter forms and draw ovals, and circles and straight lines, maintaining the feel you're developing. Finally, return to the figures and letters. Introduce them to your new grip, feel, and posture.

 

Remember, the marks on the page are the result of movement. If you can't move fluidly, the marks will reflect it. Let your eye guide your hand, not the pen point. See where you want the point to go; don't stare at where it is.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Mickey

[crystaltigress]

Thank you so much for the quick reply Mickey. I actually still despise the 303 and that plan lasted all of a few strokes. lol

I did however get a new appreciation for a 56, which is currently in my century.

I will take your advice and just play with shapes with the G. This death grip has been a long standing problem for me but with this hand it is impossible to work around.

I've even got a flex fountain on my wish list so that I avoid using stick pens altogether, since IMHO they are the reason I have it to begin with, and plus, it's another excuse to buy another pen!

 

I'm glad to hear the G is a good nib, I bought a number of them and they are nigh indestructable. All this practice and I've just now retired the first one. The only problem I have with them is they are so coated. I tend to use sumi for a little while just for the coating to maintain the ink, then switch to Eternal after a line or two. Any pointers short of sandblasting to get them to hold the ink after cleaning?

[Mickey]

Thank you so much for the quick reply Mickey. I actually still despise the 303 and that plan lasted all of a few strokes. lol

I did however get a new appreciation for a 56, which is currently in my century.

I will take your advice and just play with shapes with the G. This death grip has been a long standing problem for me but with this hand it is impossible to work around.

I've even got a flex fountain on my wish list so that I avoid using stick pens altogether, since IMHO they are the reason I have it to begin with, and plus, it's another excuse to buy another pen!

 

I'm glad to hear the G is a good nib, I bought a number of them and they are nigh indestructable. All this practice and I've just now retired the first one. The only problem I have with them is they are so coated. I tend to use sumi for a little while just for the coating to maintain the ink, then switch to Eternal after a line or two. Any pointers short of sandblasting to get them to hold the ink after cleaning?

No sandblasting necessary. Wash with household ammonia or Windex or alcohol, anything that will remove the machine oil that coats ALL flexible dip nibs. Rinse and wipe dry; then coat with saliva (really) and allow the nib to dry. That's it. The ink will now coat the nib properly. Wipe and rinse after every use. Don't touch the business part of the nib or you will have to repeat all the above steps.

[crystaltigress]

Trying to go back to basics and make sure I'm not missing something small and indefinately useful.... how far back should the Zebra G actually GO into the holder? It's currently sitting just so the G is completely visible right at the edge of the brass fitting. I'm not seeing any of the nib on the other side. Is it possible some of my frustration is that it's not seated enough?

 

Edit: In reply to the above Mickey (and I do still love your assistance!) As much resilience as the G's have... did they have to coat the darn things with CHROME??? I've tried everything to be sure the oil is off. I've cleaned with homemade pen cleaner (aka, ammonia/dish soap/rubbing alcohol/water), I've walked around the house with it balanced precariously on my tongue, I've cleaned it with windex, and I've just wiped it down again with straight alcohol... and the thing still hates Eternal. It's almost required that I get that coating of Sumi on it for any ink to stick. Should I go back to the 404 for now or just go ahead and sandblast that shipment of G's I have? ROFL It is seriously a consideration at this point because I really do like the feel of the nib once I can get the silly ink to work!

Edited August 15, 2013 by crystaltigress

[Mickey]

Trying to go back to basics and make sure I'm not missing something small and indefinately useful.... how far back should the Zebra G actually GO into the holder? It's currently sitting just so the G is completely visible right at the edge of the brass fitting. I'm not seeing any of the nib on the other side. Is it possible some of my frustration is that it's not seated enough?

 

Edit: In reply to the above Mickey (and I do still love your assistance!) As much resilience as the G's have... did they have to coat the darn things with CHROME??? I've tried everything to be sure the oil is off. I've cleaned with homemade pen cleaner (aka, ammonia/dish soap/rubbing alcohol/water), I've walked around the house with it balanced precariously on my tongue, I've cleaned it with windex, and I've just wiped it down again with straight alcohol... and the thing still hates Eternal. It's almost required that I get that coating of Sumi on it for any ink to stick. Should I go back to the 404 for now or just go ahead and sandblast that shipment of G's I have? ROFL It is seriously a consideration at this point because I really do like the feel of the nib once I can get the silly ink to work!

Leave the sandblasting equipment in the garage. Add a little (more) gum Arabic to the Eternal. I've used plenty of G nibs, but with either iron gall or sumi inks, and haven't had the problem you're experiencing. As to how deep to seat the nib, the tip should be in line with the center of the holder.

 

Look here: http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/getting_started/adjusting.pdf

 

That's pretty much covers the subject.