Learning Copperplate...

[caliken]

http://www.iampeth.com/artwork/madarasz02.jpg

 

Such an inspiration, this guy is. (From the Zanerian website): "The man who, above all others, is universally regarded as the most highly skilled ornamental penman that ever lived, Louis Madarasz, was born in San Antonia, Texas on January 20, 1859. He obtained a copy of Gaskell's Compendium of Penmanship when he was in his teens. Studying the text by himself, he achieved a degree of skill in ornamental writing that was remarkable for one so young."

A superb example thang1thang2 but this is Spencerian Script and not Copperplate (English Roundhand).

 

caliken

Edited December 25, 2012 by caliken

[thang1thang2]

A superb example thang1thang2 but this is Spencerian Script and not Copperplate (English Roundhand).

 

caliken

 

I posted this just after you had posted about Madaraz, so I posted an example of his work. Silly me, I had slipped and totally forgotten that I was in the copperplate thread and not the spencerian one (as your last paragraph referenced Spencerian). I had completely forgotten I had posted that until just now. I think I'll go back and find a more suitable picture...

 

Yay! IAMPTH has a book by madarasz on the Engrosser style of script. (viewable here)

 

http://www.iampeth.com/books/madarasz_engravers/madarasz_engravers_index.php

Edited December 26, 2012 by thang1thang2

[caliken]

IAMPTH has a book by madarasz on the Engrosser style of script. (viewable here)

 

http://www.iampeth.com/books/madarasz_engravers/madarasz_engravers_index.php

 

There's a bit of a puzzle, here.

 

The book you've linked to, (thanks for posting) is called "Lessons in advanced Engraver's Script - Louis Madarasz"

It must have been produced after his death as the past tense is use in the description.

(It fact, there are no lessons in this book, just examples of his lettering.)

 

Now here's the puzzle -

 

Louis Madarasz would never have described his lettering as "Engraver's Script" He said :-

 

"Do not be misled into practicing the slow, pen-lifting style of what is called the engraver's script. I call it

the "stilted script".....this is not writing it is drawing".

 

He called this script "Madarasz Script" presumably for differentiation. It is a running hand with few pen lifts and is based on English Roundhand with Spencerian overtones.

 

Here it my take on the hand.

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/MADARASZSCRIPT400.jpg

 

caliken

Edited December 26, 2012 by caliken

[thang1thang2]

Now here's the puzzle -

 

Louis Madarasz would never have described his lettering as "Engraver's Script" He said :-

 

"Do not be misled into practicing the slow, pen-lifting style of what is called the engraver's script. I call it

the "stilted script".....this is not writing it is drawing".

 

He called this script "Madarasz Script" presumably for differentiation. It is a running hand with few pen lifts and is based on English Roundhand with Spencerian overtones.

 

Here it my take on the hand.

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/MADARASZSCRIPT400.jpg

 

caliken

 

I found that discrepancy puzzling. However, as it was his work (and not Spencerian) I put it here. I'm glad you've set it straight. And wow, such beautiful lettering. Were I ever to have a favorite script, it would be that one; the beautiful swelling of copperplate and the elegant letterforms of Spencerian with over-the-top Capitals. Only a very practiced hand could even make it look readable, much less beautiful as you've done. I suspect it'll be several years yet before I even attempt that hand (I must first get serious with my practice, which won't happen until this summer, unfortunately, unless I somehow get a lot of free time after Basketball season is done)

 

One question, now that I think about it. On the top of the L in 'louis' how did you get that little droplet of ink? If I'm right you would draw the L normally and then use a secondary stroke to add the small droplet (or whatever you call it) on the top, yes? Or are you just good enough to do it all in one stroke?

Edited December 27, 2012 by thang1thang2

[caliken]

On the top of the L in 'louis' how did you get that little droplet of ink? If I'm right you would draw the L normally and then use a secondary stroke to add the small droplet (or whatever you call it) on the top, yes? Or are you just good enough to do it all in one stroke?

With a downwards stroke, I make a little anti-clockwise teardrop, applying a little pressure to close up the shape. Without stopping, I release the pressure and continue anti-clockwise, drawing the ink out of the teardrop, up and over with the hairline.

 

It's actually much easier to do than to describe...try it!

 

Ken

 

I don't think that the 'droplet' has a technical name...I think that 'teardrop' covers it pretty well.

[medicalcpa]

Time for me to join this thread. My Gillott 303 nibs arrived today, and I will begin the exercises in the coming weeks. Wish me luck! I would cross my fingers, but that tends to jinx things.

[thang1thang2]

Time for me to join this thread. My Gillott 303 nibs arrived today, and I will begin the exercises in the coming weeks. Wish me luck! I would cross my fingers, but that tends to jinx things.

 

Plus, it's a little hard to write with your fingers crossed, I've found... :ltcapd:

 

Good luck! I look forward to seeing your first attempts.

[kalidas]

My First practices. I'm using this pen and ink. http://www.amazon.com/Speedball-Calligraphy-Pen-Ink-Black/dp/B001DNHAYC

 

It's Hunt 102 crow quill and speedball superblack waterproof acrylic ink that came with it. as I opened the plastic packaging, I dropped the pen and it bounced around the surfaces of my dining table, couch, carpet and vinyl flooring. :/ It's been very scratchy to write with. I can't tell if it's because of the drop or out of the box, in upper and side strokes. Sometimes it goes zigzag, sometimes it simply runs into the paper trying to pierce through it. I've looked at the nib under magnifying glass making sure that the two tines are next to each other. I also don't see any particular trauma, will it fix itself as I break in? It was hard to get the nib out of the holder to clean it. I think I have cracked the nib on both sides while trying to do that. I don't think it's affecting the functionality of the nib. Maybe it limits the amount of ink per dip.

 

The paper is http://www.dickblick.com/products/spectra-artkraft-duo-finish-art-paper . I tried both the glossy and rough side. The rough side is meant for acrylic paint. But I got some feathering on it. In fact this was the only paper where I got feathering so far. My regular notepads and a tracing paper pad that I have are working without any feathering.

 

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/5404/photo6pv.jpg

 

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9673/photo7nu.jpg

[smk]

kalidas - welcome to FPN and to the Penmanship forum.

 

It is good that you have started with the basic strokes. This is the way to go. This is a great start considering you are using a crowquill (which has limited flex capabilities) in a straight holder which are harder to use for right handed people IMO (I'm assumingn you are right handed).

 

I found using oblique holders a great help when I was starting out. I started out with a Speedball oblique holder (like this one) and then got a couple more from John Neal Booksellers. I would recommend you try one out and I'm sure you'll find it much easier to produce the proper shades.

 

Pointed Calligraphy nibs are really sharp in order to produce the thinnest hairlines. This makes them susceptible to diging into the paper on upstrokes with the slightest pressure. This might seem like a challenge in the beginning but with time and practice one learns to move the pen with a feather light touch. It is almost like floating the nib over the paper with just the ink touching the surface of the paper. It is a good feeling.

 

I highly recommend getting a good oblique holder like the Century oblique and a selection of nibs like Zebra or Nikko G-nib, Gillot 404, Gillot 303 (very sharp and flexible), Brause 66EF etc. There's a good selection available at John Neal Bookseller as well as Paper & Ink Arts among others.

 

In the meantime, keep up the practice and feel free to ask lots of questions.

 

Salman

[kalidas]

kalidas - welcome to FPN and to the Penmanship forum.

 

It is good that you have started with the basic strokes. This is the way to go. This is a great start considering you are using a crowquill (which has limited flex capabilities) in a straight holder which are harder to use for right handed people IMO (I'm assumingn you are right handed).

smk, thanks for the welcome and encouragement. Yes I'm right handed, and yes it was not very natural, I had put the paper very slanted, and had it not been for the guidelines, I don't know if I could write/draw anything like that.

 

I found using oblique holders a great help when I was starting out. I started out with a Speedball oblique holder (like this one) and then got a couple more from John Neal Booksellers. I would recommend you try one out and I'm sure you'll find it much easier to produce the proper shades.

I just received my speedball oblique holder today. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BYT4FC . I had bought hunt 101 nib and then realized that it won't fit my crow quill holder. Also the book that I'm following had instructed to use an oblique holder. So I ordered this one. Hopefully it'll fit my Hunt 101. It looks a bit too small for that nib. But it's definitely too big for the 102. The socket for the nib has number "4" written on it. Oh well, I'll find out in the evening.

 

Pointed Calligraphy nibs are really sharp in order to produce the thinnest hairlines. This makes them susceptible to diging into the paper on upstrokes with the slightest pressure. This might seem like a challenge in the beginning but with time and practice one learns to move the pen with a feather light touch. It is almost like floating the nib over the paper with just the ink touching the surface of the paper. It is a good feeling.

Yeah I managed to glide the pen on the upstrokes and it was indeed a good feeling. I still didn't feel confident that by gliding the pen like that I could make smooth strokes. I felt like any tiny bump in the texture of the paper would derail my little pen off the nice curve that I'm trying to draw. May be it's just a matter of getting used to.

 

I highly recommend getting a good oblique holder like the Century oblique and a selection of nibs like Zebra or Nikko G-nib, Gillot 404, Gillot 303 (very sharp and flexible), Brause 66EF etc. There's a good selection available at John Neal Bookseller as well as Paper & Ink Arts among others.

I might go for the brause 66EF eventually. I will be looking for a nib that is good for writing with speed. Also, any recommendations for a good, cheap writing pad which is translucent enough to see the guidelines through it?

 

In the meantime, keep up the practice and feel free to ask lots of questions.

 

Salman

Again, thanks for the encouragement.

[smk]

So how did the oblique holder work out for you?

 

You should consider getting one with a brass flange at some point. The brass is easily bent to take nibs of different sizes. Check out this resource on iampeth.com on adjusting oblique holders: Adjusting Oblique Holders.

 

Other articles on this page can be useful and save you some frustration: IAMPETH - lessons on getting started with pointed pens.

 

As for faster writing, the Zebra and Nikko G nibs are fairly smooth and can be used at speed. The Zebra G nib is a bit sharper and has a bit more flex than the Nikko G. Both are chrome plated and last a long time.

 

The 66EF is a great all round nib and I use it a lot - it holds a lot of ink and is flexible enough for fairly large sized writing. I also use it for writing with Gouache and it works great. I'm not sure it's a good bet for writing quickly as it's quite easily flexed.

 

You can use marker pads (like this one) for practicing pointed pen Calligraphy. They take ink beautifully and the guidesheets are easily visible through the fairly thin paper. They are quite affordable too.

 

- Salman

[kalidas]

So how did the oblique holder work out for you?

It fit like a glove . It gave a nice angle. I still had to put mental effort to keep the nib in line but the oblique holder makes things a lot better. It takes getting used to though, looking at the nib pointing one way and maneuvering the holder angled another direction. It's fun.

 

Hunt 101 worked a lot smoother (may I've damaged the 102) and was a pleasure to use. I don't think I'm using the right paper. the rough side was feathering. The smooth side is working ok. One problem that you will notice is that this 101 just dumps all the ink on the paper at the slightest pressure. I'm thinking this speedball acrylic ink that came with hunt 102, might not be as good for 101. I have to dip a lot more, even though the reservoir on the 101 looks bigger than that on 102. I'm going through the tiny ink bottle pretty fast actually. Any recommendation for ink?

 

You should consider getting one with a brass flange at some point. The brass is easily bent to take nibs of different sizes. Check out this resource on iampeth.com on adjusting oblique holders: Adjusting Oblique Holders.

 

Other articles on this page can be useful and save you some frustration: IAMPETH - lessons on getting started with pointed pens.

I'll put the brass flange on my future list. Right now I'm following this book by Eleanor Winters http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0486409511 on copperplate. The instructions are very thorough, I'd recommend it to anyone.

 

As for faster writing, the Zebra and Nikko G nibs are fairly smooth and can be used at speed. The Zebra G nib is a bit sharper and has a bit more flex than the Nikko G. Both are chrome plated and last a long time.

 

The 66EF is a great all round nib and I use it a lot - it holds a lot of ink and is flexible enough for fairly large sized writing. I also use it for writing with Gouache and it works great. I'm not sure it's a good bet for writing quickly as it's quite easily flexed.

 

You can use marker pads (like this one) for practicing pointed pen Calligraphy. They take ink beautifully and the guidesheets are easily visible through the fairly thin paper. They are quite affordable too.

 

- Salman

Thanks for the zebra and nikko recommendations. I will look into those. 66EF is on my radar. But like you said, it's very flexible. Oh and thanks a lot for the pad recommendation. I need to find that pad or similar on amazon soon.

 

And here is a new installment of my practice. This time with oblique holder, hunt 101, same ink.

[kalidas]

And page 5

[smk]

kalidas, your practice sheets look good. The shading on the long strokes is fairly even which is a good sign as this is something most people struggle with.

 

The 101 may need to be cleaned of any residual manufacturing oils. There are a number of ways to do this. I wash the nibs with detergent which works well for me. Other methods include washing them with toothpaste, holding the nib briefly over a flame to burn the oils off or sucking on them a little so the saliva can clean them up. The last method sounds gross but is actually quite effective.

 

Another reason for the ink-dump problem might be that you are not dipping the nib upto the breather hole. Make sure that the whole of the breather hole is covered in ink and it should flow well (if it is oil free).

 

I use Higgins Eternal with a little Gum Arabic added. The ink works fine without the Gum Arabic, I added some to mine to cater for some problematic nibs that had flow issues without it. Another one of my favorites is Walnut ink made from crystals sold by John Neal Bookseller (and I'm sure other places too). Regular fountain pen ink works fine for the most part - I take a little bit out in those dinky jam jars so I don't contaminate the whole bottle.

 

There are some specialty pointed pen iron gall inks available from online retailers. I have not tried these but recently made some iron gall ink using Pomegranate peels and I found it to be just superb for pointed pen work - not so much with broad-edged nibs.

 

- Salman

[kalidas]

I have not tried these but recently made some iron gall ink using Pomegranate peels and I found it to be just superb for pointed pen work - not so much with broad-edged nibs.

 

- Salman

Wow! You made ink from pomegranate! That's so cool!

 

I'll try your advice tonight and report back.

 

Thanks for the encouragement.

[medicalcpa]

After my first disastrous practice, I've decided to get a book, after all.

[MusinkMan]

After my first disastrous practice, I've decided to get a book, after all.

 

I know man, that stuff ain't easy. Hats off to those who conquer any discipline of the pointed pen. I so want to learn the "real thing", but I just got so frustrated trying to get the ink to behave with the nib. I don't have anyone to show me, so I proceeded with the trial and error thing. Iampeth is great for teaching letterforms, but I'm not even to that point yet. I can't even get the blasted pens to flow ink properly and consistently. I've watched youtube vids where guys load their dip pens with a little paintbrush, so I tried that. No luck...just more frustration. Out of the pens I "tried to use", I had the best luck with the Brause 66ef. That one seemed to be more "forgiving", would flow better (although it seemed I had to re-dip the thing every letter because it kept running out of ink; but every once in a while I would produce a word or two that looked surprisingly good to me. The thin strokes from the dip pen were so much better than from a fountain pen. But I got so discouraged, I stopped practicing with pointed dip pens after trying it for about 4 sessions. I still have them all (almost new in fact), and I keep telling myself that I'll get serious and try to learn a "schooled hand" with a dip pen. But every time I think about doing it, I start thinking about having to haul out water and rags and will have open ink containers lying around, and eyedroppers, and stirring sticks...and my wife will make me cover the whole area with some kind of paper in case I spill some ink. And we haven't even gotten into cleaning up afterwards...LOL! If I had a place that I could just dedicate to pen practice, that would be nice, a place where I could just leave all that stuff out on the desk. Seems like more than half my practice time is spent setting up and tearing down, if you know what I mean. So, I think about having a go at it, and then I look at my flexy fountain pens; and the lazy factor wins out every time. LOL! But one of these days...(I keep telling myself...)

[medicalcpa]

 

I know man, that stuff ain't easy. Hats off to those who conquer any discipline of the pointed pen. I so want to learn the "real thing", but I just got so frustrated trying to get the ink to behave with the nib. I don't have anyone to show me, so I proceeded with the trial and error thing. Iampeth is great for teaching letterforms, but I'm not even to that point yet. I can't even get the blasted pens to flow ink properly and consistently. I've watched youtube vids where guys load their dip pens with a little paintbrush, so I tried that. No luck...just more frustration. Out of the pens I "tried to use", I had the best luck with the Brause 66ef. That one seemed to be more "forgiving", would flow better (although it seemed I had to re-dip the thing every letter because it kept running out of ink; but every once in a while I would produce a word or two that looked surprisingly good to me. The thin strokes from the dip pen were so much better than from a fountain pen. But I got so discouraged, I stopped practicing with pointed dip pens after trying it for about 4 sessions. I still have them all (almost new in fact), and I keep telling myself that I'll get serious and try to learn a "schooled hand" with a dip pen. But every time I think about doing it, I start thinking about having to haul out water and rags and will have open ink containers lying around, and eyedroppers, and stirring sticks...and my wife will make me cover the whole area with some kind of paper in case I spill some ink. And we haven't even gotten into cleaning up afterwards...LOL! If I had a place that I could just dedicate to pen practice, that would be nice, a place where I could just leave all that stuff out on the desk. Seems like more than half my practice time is spent setting up and tearing down, if you know what I mean. So, I think about having a go at it, and then I look at my flexy fountain pens; and the lazy factor wins out every time. LOL! But one of these days...(I keep telling myself...)

 

I know where you're coming from...My apartment has been a mess ever since I began teaching myself calligraphy. Thank goodness I don't live with anyone! Everything I've done up to this point has been with broad pens, but I totally understand your frustrations with setting up and cleaning up afterwards. However, I use paper towels, old applesauce cups (to hold water) and an old toothbrush to clean my nibs, so cleaning up does not take up much space at all.

 

My pointed pen nibs keep running out of ink as well! I'm also looking for a tolerable ink. Higgins Eternal may be a good ink, but it is finicky and feathers and bleeds through cheap copy paper, which is all I have as I am a student. But one of these days, I shall master that Copperplate (so I tell myself...).

[Mickey]

After my first disastrous practice, I've decided to get a book, after all.

 

I know man, that stuff ain't easy. Hats off to those who conquer any discipline of the pointed pen. I so want to learn the "real thing", but I just got so frustrated trying to get the ink to behave with the nib. I don't have anyone to show me, so I proceeded with the trial and error thing. Iampeth is great for teaching letterforms, but I'm not even to that point yet. I can't even get the blasted pens to flow ink properly and consistently. I've watched youtube vids where guys load their dip pens with a little paintbrush, so I tried that. No luck...just more frustration. Out of the pens I "tried to use", I had the best luck with the Brause 66ef. That one seemed to be more "forgiving", would flow better (although it seemed I had to re-dip the thing every letter because it kept running out of ink; but every once in a while I would produce a word or two that looked surprisingly good to me.

 

You should be able to get a full line of text from a 66EF unless you are doing some very serious flexing. I assume you've cleaned the nib properly before the first use, so that leaves me thinking your choice of ink is off the mark. I don't know what you're using, but contrary to some people's opinions, hardly any fountain pen inks work very well with pointed pens unless liberally doctored with gum arabic, otherwise the pens write too wet, with results pretty much as you describe. McCaffery's Penman Black, Old World Iron Gall, a Higgins Eternal (with a dash of gum Arabic are among the inks which behave well with pointed pens. The walnut ink (from John Neal) that Salman recommended is also very good. If it doesn't behave, just keep adding the crystals until you get the flow you like.

[varejart]

Hello guys!

Can someone do an acurate and meticulous analysis on my copperplate?

Here is the image:

http://s7.postimage.org/g46wbid8p/Imagem.jpg

 

I start to learn copperplate about 2 weeks ago.

I am asking for this analysis because I need to know if I am on the right way. I want to improve my copperplate.

 

I'm writting with a Leonardt 30, and a straight pen holder with gouache(+ water) ink on common A4 paper for inkjet printers. But I already ordered from paperinkarts 2 leonardt principal, one oblique pen holder, 1 gillot 303, and other nibs.

Here in Brazil they are too expensive, a leonardt principal is about U$11.00 and speedball oblique pen holder is about U$7.00 more U$7.00 to ship.

 

I have a lot to learn.

Sorry for the english.

Thanks for the help!