Learning Copperplate...

[thang1thang2]

...

 

What amazed me while leafing through the pages was the variety of capitol letters used within the same text. So, for example on my book's page (plate) 12 titled On the Art of Writing, I don't think there are many duplicates of single capitol letters throughout the text. Many of the "A's", "W's" and "V's" in particular are changed from line to line. And as I browsed through the book, I noticed this was happening on other pages as well. Was this done as an example of different letter treatments or was this a normal text variation of the time period? Or was there some other pattern that I'm not seeing? Even the Noyes book has variations in capitol letters on the same page.

 

Most of the differences I have found in American penman texts was not within a text but from one penman's style to another. Has anyone else noticed this and have any other observations? Thanks!

 

Many masters of a particular style have their own signature of the style. For example, one master might make their A with a simple flourish at the top, another might not. One might make their Q of the old style, another of the new. One might make their ascenders and descenders looped, one might not. Variations of beauty make it their own style of the art.

 

What happens is, as the script develops and many people master it, the masters start to have friendly competition with each other. For example, master penman back in the day would demonstrate their mastery of the art by constructing works of art with increasingly elaborate flourishes all done in a singular stroke. This same sort of friendly competition carried on over into letterforms. As people develop their own personal style, the letterforms change. If you're not a master, it's not done skillfully, however if you're a master, you can deliberately change your letterforms to make them your own, improve upon the design, re-invent the wheel so to speak. Maybe you would develop an amazing 'w' that people would marvel at the simplicity, elegance and beauty of it, and they would adopt it instead of the "official" w. Congratulations, you've now demonstrated your mastery.

 

Plus, it's just plain fun to experiment. Once you're at such a high level of experience with an art form of any kind (be it painting, drawing, calligraphy, rock climbing, biking, etc) you enjoy the company of others who can match you, and you experiment on your own with fun ideas that come to you. The reason, then, that there are so many variations, is that humanity itself is composed of people trying out new things just for fun. There's no "wrong" way to make a capital W, just different ways of correct.

[Mt.Roll]

Mt. Roll - this is great for just a weekend's worth of practice. Do you plan to continue learning Copperplate?

 

Salman

 

Not for a few weeks, no. Unfortunately.

I don't have a weekend of free time until the end of the week after next when my minor high school exams finish. Then it'll be an onslaught of Fraktur, a more refined style of my Textura and Copperplate practice. Nailing uncial will be done after a completion of learning fraktur to a decent level.

 

Question: I absolutely hate the speedball oblique holder, the old plastic one with a circle fit instead of a brass flange. I find the material uncomfortable, too thin and that it is a pain to fit the nib properly into it. Furthermore, it is a real bother to clean if any ink decides to clog up the circle fit.

 

Will the normal century oblique holder solve my dilemmas? I'm after a slightly wider grip on a different material to plastic, preferably.

 

Thanks!

[gshillitani]

*sigh*

Well, I've had a couple of goes at practice sheets and I'm not impressed with myself.

 

I'm perturbed by the fact that often, as soon as the tines part the entirety of the ink pools into a little blob and I am left with hairline parallel strokes.

 

http://yankeewithalimetwist.mymiddleearth.com/files/2012/08/IMG_4394.jpg

 

Jeremiah, I am a beginner too and one thing I have noticed is if I dip the pen every time the breather hole gets empty I am not left with those parallel lines. You dip the pen till the whole breather hole is full of ink and as soon as that "bubble" of ink goes away, dip again. I hope that makes sense.

 

Gina

[gshillitani]

I have finally gotten the hourglass adjustable oblique holder recommended by Joe Vitolo from Paper & Ink Arts. I also got a bottle of McCaffery's Penman's Ink in red-violet (this is on the theory that if I use the same tools and ink he uses I will write better... you're familiar with that theory, right?). I opened the ink and there are some white crystalline bits floating around in there. Am I to remove those? Leave them alone? Is it a defective bottle of ink?

 

I have not uploaded any more scans as my practice has not noticeably improved :embarrassed_smile:

 

Thanks for your encouragement!

 

Gina

Edited November 16, 2012 by gshillitani

[thang1thang2]

I have finally gotten the hourglass adjustable oblique holder recommended by Joe Vitolo from Paper & Ink Arts. I also got a bottle of McCaffery's Penman's Ink in red-violet (this is on the theory that if I use the same tools and ink he uses I will write better... you're familiar with that theory, right?). I opened the ink and there are some white crystalline bits floating around in there. Am I to remove those? Leave them alone? Is it a defective bottle of ink?

 

I have not uploaded any more scans as my practice has not noticeably improved :embarrassed_smile:

 

Thanks for your encouragement!

 

Gina

 

Wild guess, but as your ink is red and the bits are white I'm going to guess they're some sort of preservative so I would remove them. However, if the ink is fine when dipping and they don't seem to affect it, there's no reason to take them out either.

 

I'm excited, I'm finally going to post a real example today, I've procrastinated enough as it is!

[thang1thang2]

http://imgur.com/a/SaH0U

 

Here's an image album of my copperplate, spencerian and palmer attempts. Some things I note about my copperplate

• 
  1. I really need to sit down and do practice every day. I always put it off because I never have time, but it shows.
  2. Doing some exercises would help a lot with pressure consistency. It also doesn't help that this was the first time using this particular nib (Leonart Principal ef. I think Im in love, honestly, I'm going to marry it, and we'll have nibbie babies and everything... )
  3. I wrote this using a spencerian guide sheet, so the descenders and ascenders are a little higher than they need to be, and it's tiny for copperplate. I would've been better off using my crow quill on something of this X-height. (5mm).
  4. I don't know why, but I feel like my hairlines are twice as thick as they need to be... I'm pressing as light as I can in my palmer handwriting and they still feel a little thick. (and the others, of course, but the palmer is monoilne so you can see the hairlines better)
  5. The second capital H was an experiment that utterly failed. Note to self: Learn the capitals first before trying to do fancy schmancy things with them.
  6. My slant's getting better but still kinda sucks.
  

Any other critiques? My 'r' and 's' needs the most work, I think.

Edited November 17, 2012 by thang1thang2

[smk]

Gina - I have not used the red-violet ink so can't comment on the white bits. It is possible that they are undissolved bits of Gum Arabic. Take them out if they bother you. I have wanted that ink myself but have not had the chance to get it, do let us know how it performs.

 

thang1thang2 - If you feel 5mm to be too small, do try a 10mm grid. Spencerian is written at a slant of 52 degrees while Copperplate is 55 degrees. While the difference seems small, the additional slant in Spencerian is enough to throw out the balance of the strokes. You will most likey feel in much better control. The Leonardt Principal is a lovely nib - one of my favorites too.

 

Salman

[thang1thang2]

thang1thang2 - If you feel 5mm to be too small, do try a 10mm grid. Spencerian is written at a slant of 52 degrees while Copperplate is 55 degrees. While the difference seems small, the additional slant in Spencerian is enough to throw out the balance of the strokes. You will most likey feel in much better control. The Leonardt Principal is a lovely nib - one of my favorites too.

 

Salman

 

Thanks for the advice! It's not so much that it felt too small, it's just that it felt different, like trying to fit a circle into a hole that didn't quite fit right. I'm guessing it was a combination if different ascender/descender heights than I'm used to, plus using a new nib as well as the smaller x-height and the different angle. I'll try again with 10mm copperplate ones tonight if I can.

[sniper910]

this may sound like a question i should've asked when i first started learning any type of calligraphy, but do you write with just your wrist or by moving your whole arm? in copperplate and any other type of script also. i recently tried writing in black letter by using my whole arm. it helps a little with width consistency, but just takes practice. do you use the same practice with copperplate also?

[smk]

For Copperplate, I'm pretty sure I use a combination of finger and arm movement for most of the minuscule letters - maybe even some majuscules too. I find longer strokes easier to do with arm movement keeping my eye on the 'target' i.e. where I want to end up.

 

The straight strokes in Blackletter are harder for me to do with finger movement but Batarde and German Gothic have many curves and some pen manipulation that requires a combination of the two from me.

 

It is my opinion that since fingers and arm both provide different, but complimentary, types of control, both should be used to produce a good result. The goal really is to produce good work using a reliable and repeatable technique - that is what I aim to achieve (though not always successfully :-)

 

Salman

[Mickey]

For Copperplate, I'm pretty sure I use a combination of finger and arm movement for most of the minuscule letters - maybe even some majuscules too. I find longer strokes easier to do with arm movement keeping my eye on the 'target' i.e. where I want to end up.

 

The straight strokes in Blackletter are harder for me to do with finger movement but Batarde and German Gothic have many curves and some pen manipulation that requires a combination of the two from me.

 

It is my opinion that since fingers and arm both provide different, but complimentary, types of control, both should be used to produce a good result. The goal really is to produce good work using a reliable and repeatable technique - that is what I aim to achieve (though not always successfully :-)

 

Salman

 

If I might add just one thought to your excellent advice, it would be to suggest thinking of one's fingers as guiding the arm, rather than separating arm and finger movement out as two separate activities. I believe this melded approach yields better control of large strokes and keeps the fingers from becoming too active. Alternatively, one might think of the point itself pulling the fingers and arm, which is very much like your keeping your eye on the target approach.

[smk]

Alternatively, one might think of the point itself pulling the fingers and arm ...

 

Mickey - thank you for sharing this insight.

 

I have experienced a phase in learning various hands where I can almost see the stroke on the paper before I draw it. The point does in fact become the guide and fingers and arms are just making sure they let the point go where it needs to. I would do well to remember this the next time I hit a wall.

 

Thanks,

Salman

[WestLothian]

I had a look at Alais (1680) for his advice:

 

"It remains to understand how this machinery all operates: coordinating the body, the arm, the hands, the fingers and the pen-hold, the pen nib shape and my rules for pen positioning on the page.

I offer two principles of movements - understand that the fingers and the arms contribute according to the size of the written feature, all the other factors are imagined or useless contributions."

 

He goes on to say that the fingers are essential for angling the nib to give shape to the lower-case letters and that the arm must contribute to longer strokes and capitals.

 

 

In the arrangement of the letters and the words, the eye works more than the fingers; and the natural appearance is more important than any precept in symmetric pieces.

Edited December 12, 2012 by WestLothian

[WestLothian]

.

Edited December 12, 2012 by WestLothian

[sniper910]

thanks mickey, salman and westlothian. i seem to use a similar approach so it's good to know that my method is similar to the one used by others. i'm finding that longer strokes are more consistent in thickness if i use arm movement which was one of my main concerns. but i'm glad to know that it's a combination of both and not just one or the other. although, when i tend to try long upstrokes and hairlines in copperplate, my nib tends to get caught on the paper which is a problem. all my upstrokes usually end up shaky in fear of my nib biting the paper

[caliken]

...when i tend to try long upstrokes and hairlines in copperplate, my nib tends to get caught on the paper which is a problem. all my upstrokes usually end up shaky in fear of my nib biting the paper

 

It sounds as though you're gradually increasing the pen-to-paper angle with finger movement on long, upwards hairlines. This inevitably, has the effect of the nib digging into the paper as it becomes more upright. On these long, upstrokes, try to maintain the pen-to-paper angle throughout, by keeping the hand still.

 

Ken

Edited December 13, 2012 by caliken

[thang1thang2]

It sounds as though you're gradually increasing the pen-to-paper angle with finger movement on long, upwards hairlines. This inevitably, has the effect of the nib digging into the paper as it becomes more upright. On these long, upstrokes, try to maintain the pen-to-paper angle throughout, by keeping the hand still.

 

Ken

 

I find that keeping the pen-to-paper angle throughout makes me "feel" like I'm actually laying the pen down the farther I push up and "reducing" the angle though it stays the same. It feels weird at first, but it very quickly becomes natural as you realize that you're maintaining the angle, instead of reducing it. That's just from my experience, though.

[caliken]

There is a school of thought which states that “Copperplate is drawn, not written”.

 

The version of the script beautifully demonstrated by Dr Joe Vitolo on the IAMPETH site, goes

by the name of Engraver’s or Engrosser’s script, and is indeed, drawn and not written.

Both of these titles appear to be exclusively of American origin.

 

However, there is another version of this script which also derives from the original engraved

copper plates but is handwritten.

 

This quotation is taken from the thoughts of Louis Madarasz on this style of lettering and comes

from “The Madarasz Book - The Secret of the Skill of Madarasz”. A quotation on its own proves

nothing, of course, but as this is from the acknowledged Grand Master of Flex-nibbed writing, I

feel that it deserves particular attention.

 

“Don’t be misled into practicing the slow, pen-lifting style of what is called the engraver’s script.

I call it the “stilted script”. That style grew of itself, because engravers as a general rule cannot

work their engraving tools round corners - hence, being so much easier to lift their tool at the

bottom and top of the small letters, the great majority of engravers so form their letters piece-

meal, and this is the thing that all instructors heretofore in roundhand have advocated. This is

not writing, it is drawing and drawing, and I am talking and talking. Get out of the rut and take

something new in the way of rapid-roundhand writing; with the emphasis on the writing. You got

that? If not, read from the top again until you do get it, absorb it swallow it. Else these words

won’t produce the results you’re entitled to. I may be alone in these opinions, but I was alone

in some other things in penmanship more than thirty years ago, and those other things are

standard now”.

 

He goes on to demonstrate his own personal form of English Roundhand (Copperplate) which

shows strong Spencerian influence. Acknowledging the variation, he called it “Madarasz’

Script”. If you want to read the full instructions and see examples, they are available on the

IAMPETH site.

 

Ken

Edited December 14, 2012 by caliken

[thang1thang2]

http://www.iampeth.com/artwork/madarasz02.jpg

 

Such an inspiration, this guy is. (From the Zanerian website): "The man who, above all others, is universally regarded as the most highly skilled ornamental penman that ever lived, Louis Madarasz, was born in San Antonia, Texas on January 20, 1859. He obtained a copy of Gaskell's Compendium of Penmanship when he was in his teens. Studying the text by himself, he achieved a degree of skill in ornamental writing that was remarkable for one so young."

Edited December 14, 2012 by thang1thang2

[caliken]

One very important component in the writing of Copperplate, is the initial setting of the adjustable flange in an oblique penholder. If this setting isn't correct, the result can be a less-than-satisfying experience and the likely abandonment of the attempt to learn the style.

 

This setting / adjustment of the flange is crucial and can make the diffrence between success and failure.

 

This excellent article from IAMPETH written by Dr Joe Vitolo, covers the subject in depth, with illustrations, and IMO should be read in its entirety by beginners.

 

caliken

 

I've just found out that this link and advice has already been covered by Penner in July, last year! I suppose that there are bound to be duplications, now that this topic has grown so large.

 

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/getting_started/setting_and_stabilizing.pdf

Edited December 26, 2012 by caliken