Learning Copperplate...

[jeremiah.l.burns]

Don't be discouraged. This is arguably the most difficult hand of all to master. For a long time, it will seem as though the nib has a mind of its own, but eventually you'll reach that magical point where the nib does what you want every time. It's a great feeling and well worth all the effort involved.

 

Be patient!

 

Ken

Thanks, Ken. Fingers crossed.

[caliken]

Thanks, Ken. Fingers crossed.

 

 

No....it doesn't work with your fingers crossed!

Edited August 10, 2012 by caliken

[jeremiah.l.burns]

No....it doesn't work with your fingers crossed! :roflmho:

So that's been my problem!

[caliken]

I may have mentioned this book earlier on this thread, but it's worth reiteration.

 

'Noyes's Penmanship' by Enoch Noyes 1839

 

Go to the IAMPETH site and open 'Rare Books'. There you will find this small book on Roundhand (Copperplate) with examples of the style of exceptional quality. It's only 27 pages long and is free for download.

 

IMO the quality of his lettering is the equal of that displayed in The Universal Penman and I can think of no higher praise.

 

Ken

Edited August 10, 2012 by caliken

[caliken]

There is some confusion concerning hand hold, pen shaft angle, and nib-to-paper angle.

 

This may help to clarify the sitauation.

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/temp600.jpg

 

This is the tripod pen hold I apply to all pens and to all styles of writing. In both pictures the shaft is held at the same approximate 45 degrees angle from the paper. In the picture on the right, this places the fountain pen nib at the same 45 degrees from the paper. I believe that most firm nibs write better at this angle. This is why the pen shaft rests on, or just in front of the large knuckle and not down in the web of the hand, which would lower the nib-to-paper angle.

 

In the picture on the left, a flexible nib is being used in an oblique holder. The hand hold and shaft-to-paper angle are the same as in the first example. However, the oblique holder not only helps to point the nib at the slope angle of the wrtiting, but the adjustable flange enables the nib to be positioned at a much lower angle to the paper. This is necessary to avoid the nib snagging the paper on upstrokes.

 

If a flexible nib is used in a straight penholder, the shaft has to drop down into the webbing of the hand to avoid upstroke snagging on the paper. Although writing this way is possible, this handhold makes fine control more difficult IMHO.

 

I hope that this helps!

 

Ken

Edited August 10, 2012 by caliken

[jeremiah.l.burns]

I may have mentioned this book earlier on this thread, but it's worth reiteration.

 

'Noyes's Penmanship' by Enoch Noyes 1839

 

Go to the IAMPETH site and open 'Rare Books'. There you will find this small book on Roundhand (Copperplate) with examples of the style of exceptional quality. It's only 27 pages long and is free for download.

 

IMO the quality of his lettering is the equal of that displayed in The Universal Penman and I can think of no higher praise.

 

Ken

Thanks, Ken! I've downloaded the pdf just prior to the maintenance window but couldn't reply to say so. You're right! What exceptional examples!

[jeremiah.l.burns]

*sigh*

Well, I've had a couple of goes at practice sheets and I'm not impressed with myself.

 

Mind you, I'm not discouraged either! Just not impressed.

 

I won't bother showing you my attempts at curves...but I felt like I should show willing and share something.

 

So here's from my first night of practice sheets on straight down-strokes. It's not great but the good news is I can clearly see some areas (read: "all areas") which need improvement. I'll not bother sharing the curves yet as so far no instruction will help (it's that bad).

 

What I've Learned

1. Respect all the more anyone who looks like they know what they're doing with this script. This is difficult. Very.
   
2. 55-degree slopes are not a natural thing for my hand to do. I eagerly anticipate the arrival of my oblique.
   
3. Uniformity of heft is ridiculously difficult (at this early stage, at least)
   
4. (Not shown) Transitioning from straight down-strokes to curves or vise-versa is really hard.
   

 

I'm perturbed by the fact that often, as soon as the tines part the entirety of the ink pools into a little blob and I am left with hairline parallel strokes.

 

I initially thought this was resolved with a bottle shake. This turns out not to be the case.

 

I've tried sucking the nib for a few minutes, so far to no avail ... but I'll carry on!

 

Things to Work On

1. All of the above. However...
   
2. ...first sort out the ink flow issue or else all other practise is pointless.
   

 

http://yankeewithalimetwist.mymiddleearth.com/files/2012/08/IMG_4394.jpg

Edited August 12, 2012 by jeremiah.l.burns

[eduardp]

Don't feel discouraged. It is not easy, but it is not impossible. I'll try to give you some advices from my little practice I had so far.

1. Concerning the ink. I remember I started as a rocket using Higgins Calligraphy, but it did not work so I returned to a fountain pen ink - Pelikan Brilliant Red - choose one you feel it suits you, does not matter if it is not a calligraphy ink, you'll be in this war latter. And after you dip, just wipe it a little bit on the margin of the inkwell.

2. Do not suck the nibs. God knows what's on them and the ink residuals I do not think are good. What I do (and now it is the despicable part) I spit on them and rub the saliva agains my fingers and then clean them with a paper napkin. Above is a post were I mention how the ink should adhere to the nib.

 

I hope my english was clear enough and, again, don't despair.

Edited August 12, 2012 by eduardp

[smk]

Jeremiah - Eduard's advice is good.

 

The only thing I can add is to make sure the nib is dipped at least until the breather hole - I find that some of my nibs drop all the ink in a blob if the ink is not covering the hole. Also, the Blue Pumpkins (aka Brause No. 40 nibs) that I have are really finicky about this!

 

Salman

[caliken]

I'm perturbed by the fact that often, as soon as the tines part the entirety of the ink pools into a little blob and I am left with hairline parallel strokes.

 

Look at the photo with the oblique holder which I posted (above), and note how low the nib-to-paper angle is. This could be your problem. If your nib is held at too high an angle, gravity can take over and deposit the ink too quickly.

 

This problem is less likely to occur with fountain pens or rigid dip nibs with reservoirs where the flow of ink is controlled.

 

Ken

Edited August 12, 2012 by caliken

[jeremiah.l.burns]

Jeremiah - Eduard's advice is good. The only thing I can add is to make sure the nib is dipped at least until the breather hole - I find that some of my nibs drop all the ink in a blob if the ink is not covering the hole. Also, the Blue Pumpkins (aka Brause No. 40 nibs) that I have are really finicky about this!Salman

Thanks, Salman. Yes, I've been ensuring this. It would be helpful to know how much ink should be adhering to the nib after a dip, I think. I can often see much bare metal on the underside of the nib immediately following a dip.

 

I'm perturbed by the fact that often, as soon as the tines part the entirety of the ink pools into a little blob and I am left with hairline parallel strokes.

Look at the photo with the oblique holder which I posted (above), and note how low the nib-to-paper angle is. This could be your problem. If your nib is held at too high an angle, gravity can take over and deposit the ink too quickly.This problem is less likely to occur with fountain pens or rigid dip nibs with reservoirs where the flow of ink is controlled.Ken

That's entirely possible! Thanks, Ken...will have a look tonight!

[jeremiah.l.burns]

Don't feel discouraged. It is not easy, but it is not impossible. I'll try to give you some advices from my little practice I had so far.

1. Concerning the ink. I remember I started as a rocket using Higgins Calligraphy, but it did not work so I returned to a fountain pen ink - Pelikan Brilliant Red - choose one you feel it suits you, does not matter if it is not a calligraphy ink, you'll be in this war latter. And after you dip, just wipe it a little bit on the margin of the inkwell.

2. Do not suck the nibs. God knows what's on them and the ink residuals I do not think are good. What I do (and now it is the despicable part) I spit on them and rub the saliva agains my fingers and then clean them with a paper napkin. Above is a post were I mention how the ink should adhere to the nib.

 

I hope my english was clear enough and, again, don't despair.

Thanks, eduardp. I'll bear this in mind. I was interested in getting some new inks anyway, for variety if nothing else. Perhaps a different ink will make all the difference.

 

As for the nibs, don't worry! I don't suck on them when they're covered in ink...only when they're clean! I'll also have a closer look at your post about ink adhering to the nibs.

 

Thanks again for the input!

[Mickey]

Thanks, Salman. Yes, I've been ensuring this. It would be helpful to know how much ink should be adhering to the nib after a dip, I think. I can often see much bare metal on the underside of the nib immediately following a dip.

 

 

That bare metal usually indicates that the nib was not completely cleaned of the machining oil. A smooth, fairly even coating of ink on the nib is what one wants. Ammonia based window cleaner is what I use to clean nibs, though any number of other methods and materials work. If you use the 'suck on the nibs' method, there is no reason to repeat the exercise after the initial cleaning, so no more ink stained lips!

Edited August 13, 2012 by Mickey

[jeremiah.l.burns]

That bare metal usually indicates that the nib was not completely cleaned of the machining oil. A smooth, fairly even coating of ink on the nib is what one wants. Ammonia based window cleaner is what I use to clean nibs, though any number of other methods and materials work. If you use the 'suck on the nibs' method, there is no reason to repeat the exercise after the initial cleaning, so no more ink stained lips!

Interesting. I wonder if my spit hasn't been ... um ... strong enough? ... to clean off all of the oil. I'll try some Windex.

 

I tried another nib last night with a bit more success...even came close to a "eureka!" moment...almost! It was enough of an improvement to cheer me right up and make me keen for my next lesson.

[sniper910]

i had an other question about copperplate writing. after taking lessons from Ken's copperplate book, which i find very helpful and informative, and watching some of Joe Vitolo's videos from IAMPETH, one of the obvious differences i noticed was that some of the capital strokes were different between the two. While it looks like Ken wrote majority of his letters with one or two strokes Joe seems to have broken his letters up into more strokes in order to add more shading. is this because Joe is writing in a more true copperplate style and Ken is teaching roundhand? and to write the differences, is it just based on preference or is there a time and place for each?

[smk]

Dr. Vitolo's videos show the formal version of Copperplate usually referred to as Egraver's script.

 

Engraver's script is drawn and some strokes require the pen (or the paper) to be turned. While much more time consuming to do compared to Copperplate, the results can be stunning.

 

S.

[caliken]

Further to Salman's explanation; Engravers script is a hand-drawn version of English Roundhand which involves many strokes and pen/paper manipulation.

 

You will often see the statement that "Copperplate is drawn and not written". This is mistaken and I deliberately chose "Copperplate Handwriting" as the title for my book as I wanted to emphasise the fact that there is a handwritten version of English Roundhand, commonly known as Copperplate. There is no paper or pen manipulation and there are fewer strokes than in Engraver's script.

 

Undeniably, Engraver's script comes very close to emulating the beauty of English Roundhand, but at a price. As a drawn script, it is, by definition, slow to execute.

Copperplate is much quicker as a written form, and is possibly more practical in normal use - although admittedly, still slower than everyday handwriting.

 

It really is 'horses for courses'. If you are looking for a beautiful rendition, as close as possible to the original, engraved, 18th century English Roundhand, then Engraver's script, as epitomised by the excellent work of Dr Joe Vitolo on Iampeth, is for you.

If, on the other hand, you want a script which comes close to the original and can be handwritten in the conventional manner, then written Copperplate is the answer.

 

Ken

Edited September 29, 2012 by caliken

[sniper910]

thank you salman and ken for clarifying that for me. engravers script looks like it takes a lot more time because of the different manipulations, though i think some of the copperplate work people have posted here is just as beautiful

[gshillitani]

Here is my second try at practicing the basic strokes. I posted the first one in the wrong place apparently. Looking at what you all have done I have a very long way to go

 

This is out of Ken's book on layout paper with Higgins Eternal, a Gillott 404 and a plain plastic holder. I know its awful, and I will keep reading and practicing and trying to get better!

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10259465/CopperplatePractice1001.png

Edited November 1, 2012 by gshillitani

[P05TMAN]

Here is my second try at practicing the basic strokes. I posted the first one in the wrong place apparently. Looking at what you all have done I have a very long way to go

 

This is out of Ken's book on layout paper with Higgins Eternal, a Gillott 404 and a plain plastic holder. I know its awful, and I will keep reading and practicing and trying to get better!

Don't be discouraged! You'll do well with practice

Edited November 1, 2012 by P05TMAN