Learning Copperplate...

[eduardp]

I share with you a poem by Pablo Neruda. I tried to write using guides done by the pencil and then erased. In the beginning I tried to use Higgins ink, but the paper I got was feathering like hell (I'm waiting in the mail for some Conqueror paper and hope it will do better).

Can you please tell me when your nib can't be use anymore? I was using Leonard EF (used heavily in the last weeks) and now I feel that in the upper strokes it's scratchy.

Edited July 21, 2012 by eduardp

[tenney]

I've been trying to skim this topic to catch up, but it's so long... and so full of great information. My two questions might well have been answered previously amongst all of those many previous pages of posts. But I have two questions please:

 

1. I wish to re-learn (fully, and get it right this time) cursive italic plus more towards a nice calligraphic style. Will reading any of the many sources (books and videos, mostly at IAMPETH) lead me astray either because they are very old or, because they are specifically oriented to Copperplate? OR, put another way, are Copperplate resources good for one learning cursive italics and a more fancy writing style but not looking to write invitations etc?

 

2. With all of the sources mentioned, is there a "top ten" (or "top 100" or whatever) list of books and videos? I've looked and admired Caliken's videos (thank you!)

[smk]

Eduard - nice selection of poetry for your practice. I think a nib is past it's usefulness when it hinders your work in any way. If the scratchiness is bothering you, break out a new one.

 

I usually keep the nibs I'm not quite sure about in a separate container and take them out for another try after a while. For Copperplate a couple of nibs I had discarded when I was learning turned out to be fine after I had learned it - presumably because I had developed a lighter touch.

 

Salman

[smk]

I've been trying to skim this topic to catch up, but it's so long... and so full of great information. My two questions might well have been answered previously amongst all of those many previous pages of posts. But I have two questions please:

 

No problem - I'll be happy to answer your questions. You're right, its getting a bit long and searching for a specific piece of information is pretty hard. It would be great if the 'useful' pieces can somehow be extracted and compiled.

 

1. I wish to re-learn (fully, and get it right this time) cursive italic plus more towards a nice calligraphic style. Will reading any of the many sources (books and videos, mostly at IAMPETH) lead me astray either because they are very old or, because they are specifically oriented to Copperplate? OR, put another way, are Copperplate resources good for one learning cursive italics and a more fancy writing style but not looking to write invitations etc?

 

Italic is written with a broad edged nib while Copperplate is written with a flexible pointed one. The two scripts use widely differing techniques in their execution. The books and videos at IAMPETH are an excellent resource for learning Copperplate, and its more formal version the Engrosser's Script, but won't help you in learning Cursive italic.

 

2. With all of the sources mentioned, is there a "top ten" (or "top 100" or whatever) list of books and videos? I've looked and admired Caliken's videos (thank you!)

 

There are books people recommend highly for learning Cursive italic but I haven't used any so I'll let someone else address this part. You might want to search for threads on the subject as the topic of learning Cursive Italic comes up often.

 

Also take a look at this pinned topic on Chancery Italic by Ann Finley.

 

Salman

[tenney]

Thank you for the info to an Italic, Copperplate, etc. newbie It's easy to lump all such fancy styles together (even though I know that they're very different techniques, but not exactly how different).

[jeremiah.l.burns]

Hi guys n' gals!

 

I went and picked up an extremely cheap Manuscript copperplate dip pen set today. Whilst I recognise the general concensus is that I should be using an oblique holder, I didn't see one of these at the shop, and this was less than £10 with several nibs. I thought it was a great way to start having a play.

 

But it's so inexpensive it doesn't even include instructions, and I don't know which nibs are best suited for which purposes, or indeed even how far I should be inserting them into the pen! The latter I think I can sort out by trial and error, but if anyone has any advice on the nibs, I'd appreciate it muchly. I've taken a quick snap of the nibs below.

 

The nibs are marked:

 

"33"

"40"

"41"

"IIIEF"

"No.6 Scroll"

 

...

 

http://yankeewithalimetwist.mymiddleearth.com/files/2012/08/12-1.jpg

[ljkd13]

Hi guys n' gals!

 

I went and picked up an extremely cheap Manuscript copperplate dip pen set today. Whilst I recognise the general concensus is that I should be using an oblique holder, I didn't see one of these at the shop, and this was less than £10 with several nibs. I thought it was a great way to start having a play.

 

But it's so inexpensive it doesn't even include instructions, and I don't know which nibs are best suited for which purposes, or indeed even how far I should be inserting them into the pen! The latter I think I can sort out by trial and error, but if anyone has any advice on the nibs, I'd appreciate it muchly. I've taken a quick snap of the nibs below.

 

The nibs are marked:

 

"33"

"40"

"41"

"IIIEF"

"No.6 Scroll"

 

...

 

http://yankeewithalimetwist.mymiddleearth.com/files/2012/08/12-1.jpg

 

I'm a big fan of the blue one on the left. I use it for a lot of my calligraphy jobs. As for the others, I haven't used them myself, however you should give them a shot. I find that different nibs act differently on different papers. Try each of them and see if one feels smoother, more flexible, or more easy to write with than another. This is a lot of trial and error.

 

Also - be aware of the thickness of your ink. If its too thin, it will all come off in a blob. If it's too think, it won't run down at all. You can use drops of water to change the consistency.

 

Also - I run my nibs through a lit match for a second on either side to get any oils off them. If you don't, sometimes the ink won't stick to the metal and it won't write. Some people suck on their nibs for a while, but I don't.

Edited August 7, 2012 by ljkd13

[jeremiah.l.burns]

I'm a big fan of the blue one on the left. I use it for a lot of my calligraphy jobs. As for the others, I haven't used them myself, however you should give them a shot. I find that different nibs act differently on different papers. Try each of them and see if one feels smoother, more flexible, or more easy to write with than another. This is a lot of trial and error.

 

Also - be aware of the thickness of your ink. If its too thin, it will all come off in a blob. If it's too think, it won't run down at all. You can use drops of water to change the consistency.

 

Also - I run my nibs through a lit match for a second on either side to get any oils off them. If you don't, sometimes the ink won't stick to the metal and it won't write. Some people suck on their nibs for a while, but I don't.

Thanks! I was a fan of the blue one based on colour alone. (I'm new, nothing else to raise the bar against yet!) Glad to hear it might be nice to use.

 

Also good advice about the match - I've heard that before but forgotten it. Will do!

[caliken]

Hi guys n' gals!

 

I went and picked up an extremely cheap Manuscript copperplate dip pen set today. Whilst I recognise the general concensus is that I should be using an oblique holder, I didn't see one of these at the shop, and this was less than £10 with several nibs. I thought it was a great way to start having a play.

 

But it's so inexpensive it doesn't even include instructions, and I don't know which nibs are best suited for which purposes, or indeed even how far I should be inserting them into the pen! The latter I think I can sort out by trial and error, but if anyone has any advice on the nibs, I'd appreciate it muchly. I've taken a quick snap of the nibs below.

 

The nibs are marked:

 

"33"

"40"

"41"

"IIIEF"

"No.6 Scroll"

 

...

 

 

 

 

AFAIK the only oblique penholders available in England, are inexpensive plastic ones which can be obtained from www.scribblers.co.uk and www.blotspens.co.uk.

 

Both are reliable dealers and the basic penholder is fine.

 

The nibs you have, are all flexible to an extent, except for the last one which is rigid and is intended for two-stroke edged-nib writing.

 

Both the above suppliers stock Higgins Eternal Ink and Gillott 303 flexible nibs.

 

Ken

Edited August 7, 2012 by caliken

[jeremiah.l.burns]

AFAIK the only oblique penholders available in England, are inexpensive plastic ones which can be obtained from www.scribblers.co.uk and www.blotspens.co.uk.

Thanks, Ken. I'll have a look 'round. Alternatively, I'm heading back to Michigan to visit family in October. So if there are any recommended items to 'procure' whilst I'm State-side, do let me know! As I'm still new, I'm not looking to spend much yet, obviously.

 

Both are reliable dealers and the basic penholder is fine.

 

By the basic penholder, do you just mean a straight one as I currently have? What benefit is an oblique meant to offer? I just hear so much about them being fabulous.

 

The nibs you have, are all flexible to an extent, except for the last one which is rigid and is intended for two-stroke edged-nib writing.

Where could I see an example of this "two-stroke edged-nib" writing?

 

I've included my first sample of "Copperplate" (in quotation marks because I recognise how very un-copperplate it looks). I know it's awful, but it's a first attempt, so please be kind, people.

 

I'm mostly interested at this juncture in the blobbiness to some of my characters. I think this has been caused by residual ink on the surface of the paper which has not dried/soaked in as I wrote. Then, as I continue writing, the paper vibrates a bit and causes the surface ink to spray. I think I witnessed this a few times.

 

As I'm learning, I'm not really bothered. I know it's a learning curve and I'm right at the bottom. Once I sort out why my ink is going everywhere, it'll be easier to work on form, etc. But if one doesn't ask...

 

FYI:

• "40 nib" (blue nib)
  
• Manuscript Black Calligraphy Ink
  
• Paper - fairly heavy; old drawing pad by "Impressions"; claims to be suitable for ink, crayon, pastel, pencil
  

 

http://yankeewithalimetwist.mymiddleearth.com/files/2012/08/IMG_4361.jpg

Edited August 7, 2012 by jeremiah.l.burns

[caliken]

By the basic penholder, do you just mean a straight one as I currently have? What benefit is an oblique meant to offer? I just hear so much about them being fabulous.

I was referring to the basic, plastic oblique holders as opposed to the beautiful, ornate ones available in USA.

 

An oblique holder points the nib at the slope line so that the tines open evenly on downstrokes when pressure is applied.

 

If you look through some of the first pages in this thread, you'll find most of the answers to your questions.

 

Ken

[jeremiah.l.burns]

By the basic penholder, do you just mean a straight one as I currently have? What benefit is an oblique meant to offer? I just hear so much about them being fabulous.

I was referring to the basic, plastic oblique holders as opposed to the beautiful, ornate ones available in USA.

 

An oblique holder points the nib at the slope line so that the tines open evenly on downstrokes when pressure is applied.

 

If you look through some of the first pages in this thread, you'll find most of the answers to your questions.

 

Ken

Thanks, Ken. I've gone right back to the beginning of this thread and started reading all the posts. I'm now actually quite embarrassed by my first stab as I can see how very wrong my approach has been.

 

• I've tried to dive in too deeply too quickly.
  
• I've not paid attention to learning strokes before learning construction
  
• On the above point, it's become blindingly obvious how very much Copperplate is an art form as much (perhaps moreso) as it is a form of writing.
  
• Lee's early link to the video for "Flourishing" was an eye-opener. It gave confidence because things I've noticed which I thought were 'problems' are actually 'normal'. I don't have to try so hard to correct for them.
  

 

The list goes on and on, but I want to get back to reading the posts. I've downloaded Salman's guide sheet as well, and plan on starting the lessons properly...not writing letters and sentences yet!

 

I wish I could go back and delete my previous post, but perhaps in a few days' time I'll post my first 'real' attempt at Copperplate...which will be practice strokes, and not letter/word writing.

[smk]

 

<snip>

 

I wish I could go back and delete my previous post, but perhaps in a few days' time I'll post my first 'real' attempt at Copperplate...which will be practice strokes, and not letter/word writing.

 

Jeremiah, I think its great that you have shared your first attempt. It will serve as a reminder of your progress in only a short time from now. Your approach for assessing where you are and determining what to focus on is right on the money. The ability to do just that on an ongoing basis is a guarantee of success.

 

Check out the before and after comparisons on this page: Getting Started on IAMPETH.com.

 

A note on the template - do pick up the ones with larger x-height.

 

Achim's 8mm guidesheet - blue

10mm with halves marked (The dashed lines are at 5mm to show where a hairline connects to the letter.)

 

It's much easier to learn the strokes at the larger size. Also, give the sheet a few hours to dry properly (I used to leave them overnight) so the ink doesn't spread along the guidelines. I had this problem with my inkjet printer.

 

Looking forward to your exercise sheet.

 

S.

Edited August 8, 2012 by smk

[caliken]

Good for you, Jeremiah!

 

In my opinion, this thread is one of the most important in the whole of 'Penmanship'

 

Reading through the posts is like taking a 'living' course in Copperplate writing. Salman, who started this thread, is the best example of all. His progress throughout has been remarkable and must be of great encouragement to all those just beginning to learn this beautiful hand.

 

Ken

Edited August 8, 2012 by caliken

[jeremiah.l.burns]

i've been working on my copperplate hand, and presently got interested in the italian copperplate from the calligraphers bible.

The Calligrapher's Bible by David Harris is great fun and there are many good ideas within its covers. However, the intructions on pointed pen calligraphy ("Copperplate, English Roundhand" and "Copperplate, Italian Hand) are misleading, to put it mildly.

 

As with all Copperpate scripts, the pen is sharpened to a point In the accompanying illustrations a modern, metallic nib is shown.

 

The angle of slope is at 40 degrees from the vertical The angle of slope for Copperplate (English Roundhand) is 35 degrees from the vertical.

 

The thinner strokes can be made with the nib dragged on its corner. This instruction applies to narrow, edged nibs which were used to produce the original lettering which was subsequently etched onto copperpates and then copied with flexible pointed nibs. The nib, as shown in the illustrations is pointed : a pointed nib has no edges!

 

Traditionally, the pen was held at right angles to the suface, with only the tip of the little finger touching the paper. Correct, if describing writing with a narrow, edged pen. This is totally misleading, as all the other instructions are for the use of a flexible, pointed pen - including the illustrations.

 

In many of the letters, in particular the majuscules, the suggested ductus is impossible with many of the swelled strokes shown as being written in an upward direction. As anyone who has ever attempted to write with a flexible nib will tell you, this is a recipe for disaster, with the nib digging into the paper.

 

Referring to minuscules - The stems of the letters are straight and can be drawn with the nib less pointed than that for the Italian Hand.

Again this refers to writing with a narrow, edged pen, which has nothing to do with the lettering shown with a metal pointed nib. Some of these descriptions relate to the writings of George Bickham in the eighteenth century, in which he describes writing with a narrow, edged pen.

 

In all of the illustrations, the pen is shown being held at entirely the wrong angle.

For swelled strokes with a flexible, pointed nib, it must be pointed at, or close to, the slope of the writing.

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Hands500.jpg

 

I don't particularly enjoy criticising this book which has many good things in it, but for someone just starting out in learning Copperplate, it is, at the very least, misleading and I just felt that someone should point it out.

 

I leave the last word to a description of the book, as advertised in John Neal's catalogue. Note: The instructional photos for the pointed pen script alphabets do not follow the standard practice in the USA. - written by a master of diplomacy!

 

caliken

Still working my way through the pages of this thread (I WILL read it all...it's fascinating and informative). I came across this post of yours, Ken, which I find particularly satisfying.

 

I own this book and was troubled by some of the descriptive text as compared to the illustrative examples. I'm new to calligraphy and fountain pens in general, and so assumed this was a glaring example of my ignorance shining through. Thank you so much for posting this "critique".

 

I'd already come to the conclusion that to begin my Copperplate lessons I'd utilise the much praised Baird lessons already described on this thread and not dive into it blind using any random materials I could find lying around. Your above notes have provided confidence.

 

The book seems to stand as a great ready-to-hand resource for some fine exemplars...if not necessarily on technique.

[jeremiah.l.burns]

Jeremiah, I think its great that you have shared your first attempt. It will serve as a reminder of your progress in only a short time from now. Your approach for assessing where you are and determining what to focus on is right on the money. The ability to do just that on an ongoing basis is a guarantee of success.Check out the before and after comparisons on this page: Getting Started on IAMPETH.com.A note on the template - do pick up the ones with larger x-height. Achim's 8mm guidesheet - blue10mm with halves marked (The dashed lines are at 5mm to show where a hairline connects to the letter.)It's much easier to learn the strokes at the larger size. Also, give the sheet a few hours to dry properly (I used to leave them overnight) so the ink doesn't spread along the guidelines. I had this problem with my inkjet printer.Looking forward to your exercise sheet. S.

Thanks, Salman. Without trying to sound too overly flowery and fawning, your own posts along with others such as Suki, Achim and others, are all the inspriation one needs to try.

 

I'm about halfway through the posts now and should be able to finish them up today/this evening with a view to having my first crack at a practice sheet of strokes by this weekend. I've already decided to try some standard printer paper rather than the sketch pad I've been using. Time will tell if I think I need to switch to an oblique holder though.

 

 

Salman, who started this thread, is the best example of all. His progress throughout has been remarkable and must be of great encouragement to all those just beginning to learn this beautiful hand.Ken

Tell me about it! Remarkable stuff.

 

I love the way this thread started. To-the-point.

 

I am going to learn Copperplate.

[jeremiah.l.burns]

Hi all! Not much of an update. But a few points:

 

Firstly, I couldn't agree more with what has already been suggested by beachwalker (and reiterated in Ken's subsequent quotation) that newcomers make the time to go back and read all posts contained within this ever-growing thread. Since Ken reiterated beachwalker's original sentiments here, the thread has grown by an additional two pages and 100 further pots...so it's no small task.

 

That said, I thought it was sound advice, and have taken it to heart. Now having read all 956 posts (yes, including re-reading my own drivel), I can say with confidence how truly eye-opening and informative it has been. Many of the questions that plagued my mind before starting my reading have been answered already. And whilst the individual posts and examples I've read along the way have raised still further questions, most of these have been resolved by this great community of supporters and enthusiasts.

 

The posts have also served to whet my appetite to attempt the lessons properly, and I've been positively itching to start my Baird lessons after seeing all of your wonderful work. However, I've forced myself to wait until I'd read the whole of the thread, and now feel like I have a better head for going into the lessons.

 

I've printed off a dozen or so guide sheets in both 8mm and 10mm and hope to start tonight. I'm not rushing though, so don't expect to see anything for a couple of days. I also want to see if I can get my scanner working so I needn't rely on photographs.

 

Watch this space for some horribly attempted practice sheets!

 

This all being said, I do still have a couple of lingering questions with regards to holders and nibs.

 

I'm painfully aware that my straight holder likely won't cut mustard. However I'm willing to 'deal with it' until such time as my oblique arrives. That said, I need help choosing an oblique. And whilst I know this has been mentioned countless times by other newbies to copperplate on this thread, I have some confusion.

 

Ken kindly suggested obliques from a couple of sources, and one of them is here. The question regards nibs. It claims to be suitable for the Gillot 404, 303 & 170...all very popular amongst the members of this thread. The trouble is it doesn't mention any of the other favourites such as blue pumkins or Brouse Rose. Does anyone know if these will also work with this holder, or will I need a few different obliques, even if it means importing to the UK from elsewhere?

 

Second question with regards to nibs themselves: is there a hard-and-fast rule as to what the numbers embossed on the nibs actually mean? Many people in the thread are very helpful to point out their personal favourites. But in order to start seeing what I personally like, it might be useful to know that, for example, a 170 is lower than a 404 (numerically) and therefore means "more flexible". I'm giving this as an example...and I suspect the answer is likely to be something akin to "it varies according to manufacturer".

 

Thanks in advance!

Edited August 9, 2012 by jeremiah.l.burns

[smk]

This all being said, I do still have a couple of lingering questions with regards to holders and nibs.

 

I'm painfully aware that my straight holder likely won't cut mustard. However I'm willing to 'deal with it' until such time as my oblique arrives. That said, I need help choosing an oblique. And whilst I know this has been mentioned countless times by other newbies to copperplate on this thread, I have some confusion.

 

Ken kindly suggested obliques from a couple of sources, and one of them is here. The question regards nibs. It claims to be suitable for the Gillot 404, 303 & 170...all very popular amongst the members of this thread. The trouble is it doesn't mention any of the other favourites such as blue pumkins or Brouse Rose. Does anyone know if these will also work with this holder, or will I need a few different obliques, even if it means importing to the UK from elsewhere?

 

The Blue Pumpkin (aka Brause #40) and Brause Rose will fit this holder but they are a bit too long so the tip ends up a too far out. Zebra, Tachikawa and Nikko G nibs fit too but once again are too long.

 

Your best bet with this holder are the 303 and 404. The 170 is quite flexible as little force is require to flex the nib but the nib doesn't flex as much. The 303 is quite flexible and the 404 is a bit on the stiff side. The 404 is easier to control than the 303 due to its comparative stiffness.

 

I would suggest getting a few of all three (303, 404 and 170) that fit this holder - they will be more than adequate for learning Copperplate. Further exploration can be better directed with these as the baseline.

 

Second question with regards to nibs themselves: is there a hard-and-fast rule as to what the numbers embossed on the nibs actually mean? Many people in the thread are very helpful to point out their personal favourites. But in order to start seeing what I personally like, it might be useful to know that, for example, a 170 is lower than a 404 (numerically) and therefore means "more flexible". I'm giving this as an example...and I suspect the answer is likely to be something akin to "it varies according to manufacturer".

 

Thanks in advance!

 

This is a good question. The number don't really tell the story - which is just as well since the criteria is not only flexibility but also snap-back, maximum spread, smoothness, hairline width and 'feel' to name a few. It would be pretty hard to capture all that with a name or a number.

 

Mickey started a thread to catalog the characteristics of Pointed Pen Nibs which has some good information.

 

Salman

[jeremiah.l.burns]

The Blue Pumpkin (aka Brause #40) and Brause Rose will fit this holder but they are a bit too long so the tip ends up a too far out. Zebra, Tachikawa and Nikko G nibs fit too but once again are too long.

 

Your best bet with this holder are the 303 and 404. The 170 is quite flexible as little force is require to flex the nib but the nib doesn't flex as much. The 303 is quite flexible and the 404 is a bit on the stiff side. The 404 is easier to control than the 303 due to its comparative stiffness.

 

I would suggest getting a few of all three (303, 404 and 170) that fit this holder - they will be more than adequate for learning Copperplate. Further exploration can be better directed with these as the baseline.

That's exactly what I needed to hear, Salman. Thank you very much.

 

This is a good question. The number don't really tell the story - which is just as well since the criteria is not only flexibility but also snap-back, maximum spread, smoothness, hairline width and 'feel' to name a few. It would be pretty hard to capture all that with a name or a number.

 

Mickey started a thread to catalog the characteristics of Pointed Pen Nibs which has some good information.

 

Salman

Again, thank you! This is exactly what I need.

 

Incidentally, had a first stab at a practise sheet tonight and am shocked at how much I'm struggling. I'm not deterred though! I had one or two good moments in 2 pages worth of rubbish...and they've been more than enough to keep me going. I'm planning more tomorrow night!

[caliken]

Incidentally, had a first stab at a practise sheet tonight and am shocked at how much I'm struggling. I'm not deterred though! I had one or two good moments in 2 pages worth of rubbish...and they've been more than enough to keep me going. I'm planning more tomorrow night!

 

Don't be discouraged. This is arguably the most difficult hand of all to master. For a long time, it will seem as though the nib has a mind of its own, but eventually you'll reach that magical point where the nib does what you want every time. It's a great feeling and well worth all the effort involved.

 

Be patient!

 

Ken