Learning Copperplate...

[eduardp]

Some updates on my journey:

1. my camera is moody so no uploads for the moment of my practice sheets.

2. I'm using Ken example and Noyes's Penmanship for my regular practice.

3. the minuscules are for the moment not so problematic, except the f which is killing me (don't think I reached perfection ).

4. today I started the practice for the capitals and it's incredible hard. I'm struggling to see the right proportion and I would appreciate some examples with the capitals on a guide sheet with all the lines drawn.

5. I practiced every day between 30 minutes and 1 hour and as the time passes it's becoming a great pleasure, not so much a duty.

 

For the moment that's my struggle and hope that in the weekend I'll have something to upload.

[Mickey]

Having said that, I'm quite prepared to accept that your sources may be right. I have to confess that I'm not very interested in the origin of English Roundhand and 'Who' did 'what' and 'how' back in the 1700s will never be known for certain - and does it really matter?

 

Ken

 

That really depends on whether one wants to get in tune with the spirit of a style or codify the work of some select group of practitioners. Either choice is a valid one, though the former could be thought of as resurrecting the old style, opening it to further evolution, whereas the latter seeks to memorialize, archive, and stratify it.

 

This happens in other arts, too. Typically the archival movement come first, raising interest in the old art form. When the understanding is advanced sufficiently, others take the next step, to recreate the ethos of the period, then finally practice the forms as living art. During my lifetime, Baroque music made exactly this sort of journey from the world early music to simply music.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Mickey

[caliken]

4. today I started the practice for the capitals and it's incredible hard. I'm struggling to see the right proportion and I would appreciate some examples with the capitals on a guide sheet with all the lines drawn.

 

Here are the capitals I usually write. Unlike the small letters, there are variations.

 

It's worth noting that most of the downstrokes in the capitals are swelled, whereas most of the downstrokes in the small letters are straight.

 

Ken

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Majuscules650.jpg

Edited July 4, 2012 by caliken

[Columba Livia]

There's no way of knowing for certain, how it was produced, prior to the engravings of c1740.

 

But there is. Here we go, "The Copperplate Myth":

 

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

 

It also deals with the usage/orgins of the word "copperplate" and acknowledges that it is a "generic name".

 

Another article on historic pen grips which provides further information on how round hand was written with quills (and is generally worth reading for perspective on how different holds can serve different ends):

 

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

 

and does it really matter?

 

I think historical understanding does matter. I think it's very important to understand the history and technique of calligraphy since we need to know where we're coming from to have an understanding of where we are and were we are heading. As Chaucer wrote:

 

For out of olde feldes, as men seith

Cometh al this newe corn fro yeer to yere

And out of olde bokes, in good feith

Cometh al this newe science that men lere

 

 

'The Universal Penman' remains very special to me [...] the original version remains, for me, the most beautiful lettering ever produced by human hand - regardless of how it was done!

 

Indeed, I have never meant to impinge on that specialness nor to assert that the lettering in the 'Penman is not beautiful and worthy of careful study and practice.

 

 

The difference between us, is that I posted it as a separate topic, as a distinctive form of lettering, whereas you stuck your variation in the middle of an established thread concerning a specific lettering style!

 

Possibly a difference between us is that I do not perceive copperplate as a thing that died in the 18th century, and which we may only reproduce as taxidermy, anything else fit only to be denounced as "dreadful" and "inferior" and proscribed on the grounds that it might "confuse" people away from The Truth.

 

But anyhow, congrats: you've forced me out of "your" thread, since I just don't have the energy to continue this. :<

[beachwalker]

4. today I started the practice for the capitals and it's incredible hard. I'm struggling to see the right proportion and I would appreciate some examples with the capitals on a guide sheet with all the lines drawn.

 

Here are the capitals I usually write. Unlike the small letters, there are variations.

 

It's worth noting that most of the downstrokes in the capitals are swelled, whereas most of the downstrokes in the small letters are straight.

 

Ken

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Majuscules650.jpg

 

Good day all.

 

Ken, thanks much for the examples in this post and for the examples of the lower case in post 902.

The exchange over what we are striving to learn has been fascinating. More particularly, your observation about Roundhand being written and the engraver's script being drawn, to paraphrase - I hope correctly, has caused me to step back a pace or two and rethink what I actually am pursuing. You have opened my eyes, yet again. Using your reference, your examples, and your earlier contributions to this thread, I'm going to shift my efforts in a more deliberate direction: rather than just emulate, I want to write! Your observation has introduced a sense of order and purpose that I didn't know was missing until this exchange.

 

My absence lately, however, hasn't been due to this catharsis of purpose. Family matters have a way of taking one's attention in other directions, as will be the case periodically over the next few weeks. I shall continue to pursue my drills, and searches for source materials as you have presented them, and, hopefully post something as pleasing to the eye as Eduardp has.

 

It's great to be back and involved. Regards, John

[caliken]

Possibly a difference between us is that I do not perceive copperplate as a thing that died in the 18th century, and which we may only reproduce as taxidermy, anything else fit only to be denounced as "dreadful" and "inferior" and proscribed on the grounds that it might "confuse" people away from The Truth.

But anyhow, congrats: you've forced me out of "your" thread, since I just don't have the energy to continue this. :<

Columba Livia,

 

I have read, with interest, all of the pages you posted and found nothing to disagree with. It makes perfect sense and is probably how it all happened. My point is that we will never know with absolute certainty without evidence in the form of the actual writing by the Seventeenth century Writing Masters. The text you posted, supports this view -

"There is currently a desperate need for a publication that reproduces the original calligraphy of this period, so that we can judge for ourslves the extent to which the writing masters' original work differs in reproduction".

 

We know for certain that the original writing was with a narrow, edged quill. What isn't known, is if it was amended (improved) by the engraver and if so, to what extent. Certainly, the flexible pointed nib assists in the formation of the script as produced by the burin.

 

The pages on pen-hold are equally interesting and worthy of experimentation. Thanks for posting.

 

I have read "A Book of Scripts" and "The Story of Writing" and found them interesting; but I am far more interested in spending my time in actual writing.

 

I certainly don't "perceive copperplate as a thing that died in the 18th century".

I think that English Roundhand aka copperplate reached perfection as printed in The Universal Penman. It's not possible to improve on perfection and all attempts to improve or modify the script are attractive alternatives at best and mere shadows of the original at worst.

 

The alternatives or derivatives such as "Angular Roundhand" are not without attraction and deserve to be viewed and studied on a forum such as this. However, the topic of this thread concerns the very specific English Roundhand script which is more commonly known as Copperplate.

 

Due largely to the efforts of its originator, Salman, this thread has gone from strength to strength and there are now several participants who have made remarkable progress in a very short time. My problem lies with the introduction of a script, which although deriving from English Roundhand, is very different and is in fact much closer to Spencerian script (which incidentally has a thread of its own). There are many beginners coming on to this thread all the time, and it could only cause confusion to have two connected but dissimmilar scripts running side by side. That's why I would respectfully ask you to consider starting a new topic for those who wish to study and learn your choice of script.

 

I'm sorry that you think that I forced you out of this thread. It was never my intention and it was never "my" thread; I'm just a participant.

 

Ken

[Mickey]

 

I certainly don't "perceive copperplate as a thing that died in the 18th century".

I think that English Roundhand aka copperplate reached perfection as printed in The Universal Penman. It's not possible to improve on perfection and all attempts to improve or modify the script are attractive alternatives at best and mere shadows of the original at worst.

 

 

Ken,

 

I see a couple of problems the statement above. First, your reputation as penman gives your opinion weight in this forum it might not merit as a scholar of the style. It might or it might not, but it's been my impression you tried to slap down Columba Livia more than you tried engage him.

 

Second, whether you believed the style died or merely ossified in the 18th century is a distinction without a difference as far as the present discussion is concerned. At least, that is my opinion. You declare the exemplars you like to be perfection and that everything else is inferior. 'Attractive alternative' is hardly affording those examples equal dignity with 'perfection.'

 

This thread was created, I believe, to allow students of Copperplate to share their personal journeys with the script. Unfortunately, the FPN's software (as presently configured) does not support sub-threads, where related discussions and parallel journeys can run in close connection, so, by disqualifying or denigrating the path Columba Livia chose to follow, you effectively booted him out of the thread. The sub-community of penmen in FPN is too small to support a "Learning Spiky Copperplate" or "Learning Degenerate Copperplate" or "Learn Attractive Alternatives" thread divorced from its parent thread.

[eduardp]

 

Here are the capitals I usually write. Unlike the small letters, there are variations.

 

It's worth noting that most of the downstrokes in the capitals are swelled, whereas most of the downstrokes in the small letters are straight.

 

Ken

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Majuscules650.jpg

 

Ken,

 

Thank you so much for the examples. I was struggling with the Noyes's examples. Yours looks so nice and a little easier. Maybe I really have to get the Universal Penman. But the capitals, for the moment, are a milestone for me, the hand is always shaking.

 

I shall continue to pursue my drills, and searches for source materials as you have presented them, and, hopefully post something as pleasing to the eye as Eduardp has.

 

It's great to be back and involved. Regards, John

 

John,

 

I can't wait for you to be back and I thank you for your kind words. Calligraphy is not easy, but very rewarding, and having someone on your side is great.

 

Best wishes for you all,

Eduard

[caliken]

Eduard,

 

I'm glad that you're findng the examples, useful. Keep up the good work!

Edited July 5, 2012 by caliken

[caliken]

.....it's been my impression you tried to slap down Columba Livia more than you tried engage him.

 

Then you got the wrong impression.

 

.....by disqualifying or denigrating the path Columba Livia chose to follow, you effectively booted him out of the thread. The sub-community of penmen in FPN is too small to support a "Learning Spiky Copperplate" or "Learning Degenerate Copperplate" or "Learn Attractive Alternatives" thread divorced from its parent thread.

 

I'm the one being criticised for expressing an opinion.

 

I never claimed to be an historian, but I do know something about the construction of hand-lettering. Having said that, it doesn't take an expert to see the huge differences between "English Roundhand" and "Angular Running Hand".

 

I don't know where you get the impression that I have the power, or the desire, to remove anyone from anywhere.

 

There is absolutely no reason why we can't have an "Angular Running Hand" Topic.

 

Ken

Edited July 6, 2012 by caliken

[smk]

But anyhow, congrats: you've forced me out of "your" thread, since I just don't have the energy to continue this. :<

 

Columba Livia - I came to this discussion a bit late and read it after quite a bit was said on the topic. I did not get an impression that you were being forced out of this thread. By all means continue posting in this thread if you believe this is the right place to do it. This is a public forum and nobody owns this thread.

 

I must say the references quoted by both you and Ken, particularly the articles you photographed for your last post, were very informative for me and I believe have enriched this thread.

 

The decision to continue posting here, or creating a new thread, is entirely yours. I think it only fair to allow others to have an opinion about it.

 

Salman

[Ghost Plane]

Good heavens! Such passion about artistic styles! Please don't make me put on my moderator's hat I'm enjoying the various examples too much.

 

Everyone having now agreed to disagree, I look forward to more examples of a skill that continues to elude me.

[eduardp]

After a while of absence I share with you another practice sheet. What I have done in all this time:

1. I'm following Noyes's Penmanship.

2. I start every practice session with minuscules and capitals exercises and then I try to write the examples for every capital as in the sheet I posted (sorry for spelling or for changing the examples, but in some instances the examples were longer than a line).

3. Still on 8 mm practice sheet, helps me see where the trouble is.

4. The hand is still shy and does not dare to go all the way.

As always I'm waiting for suggestions and impressions.

 

Edited July 14, 2012 by eduardp

[smk]

Eduard - thanks for sharing your exercise sheets. They never fail to inspire me to put in some practice myself :-)

 

One gets used to looking at things critically when practicing and sometimes misses out on the good stuff looking for things that need improvement. There's a lot to like in this sheet, I hope you enjoyed writing it.

 

Off to my own practice now :-)

 

Salman

[eduardp]

Eduard - thanks for sharing your exercise sheets. They never fail to inspire me to put in some practice myself :-)

 

One gets used to looking at things critically when practicing and sometimes misses out on the good stuff looking for things that need improvement. There's a lot to like in this sheet, I hope you enjoyed writing it.

 

Off to my own practice now :-)

 

Salman

 

Salman,

 

Thank you so much for your kind words, they give me confidence. You are totally right, in practice we see only the bad things and, in a way, is good, because this is what should be improved.

From some time I really enjoy my practice, even if there are moment when I get frustrated that something is not getting the way I want, but even this is enjoyable and I'm sad when I do not get the daily hour. In this hell weather when I find myself unable to think, practice cools me.

 

Eduard

[Hex]

Very nicely done Eduard and you motivate me to stop being so lazy and to practice more.

[eduardp]

As I mentioned in my previous post having to cope with hell temperatures, being weekend I got some practice yesterday and today and managed to finish the capital examples. Sorry for the ink droplet and for the imperfections (spelling, hand shaking etc.), they are part of the practice.

[eduardp]

Very nicely done Eduard and you motivate me to stop being so lazy and to practice more.

 

George,

 

Thank you and I am glad if you practice more. I think that it is the idea of this thread. When I just joined the forum and saw the works of Ken, Salman and others I felt pain as they look so beautiful and perfect and I thought I will never be able to do it the way they do it (don't think that now I can, not even far). Then I saw this thread and it open my eyes: everything is possible with practice and advices from others, by posting the troubles you surpass or encounter in the process. I know that my examples are still like a child work comparing to others, I do not know if I will ever be able to get closer to what I want, but the journey is so enjoyable and maybe one day someone will see them and understand that it can be done and he will actually do it better than I did. It's an art/workmanship, you choose, that shouldn't die, the way handwriting shouldn't disappear.

 

Eduard

[kkshadow]

Eduard,

 

 

I cannot believe how far you've come in such a short time. Your writing is really showing character. I can see what you mean when you say your hand is shy. I think getting over that shyness will come with practice.

Beautiful work.

 

Ken

[eduardp]

Ken,

 

Thank you so much. Concerning the shyness, it's really killing me that I know I can do it (sometimes I do it), but then I don't trust the hand and try to lead it and I destroy everything.

 

Eduard