Learning Copperplate...

[eduardp]

eduardp - you are off to a truly superb start. Your observations are spot on and I can only applaud your methodical approach. I would be happy with a practice sheet like the first one

 

W.A. Baird's book on IAMPETH is a great resource. It defined the style for me and helped train my eye to understand the nuances of this lovely hand.

 

I'll be looking forward to your next upload.

 

Salman

 

Thank you so much! Your post made my day. And I also thank you for recommending me Baird's book. The lessons are helping a lot.

[Columba Livia]

...

 

The papers are European, being British companies specifically. Conqueror paper can be bought online for £6 for 100 sheets (much cheaper in boxes of 500 sheets tho) and there is a shop in town which sells Basildon Bond paper for £4 for 50 sheets.

 

I write on both sides and cross-write, so I'm getting my moneys worth from each sheet. I use 9 - 12 sheets a day and my perspective is that I can get more money but I can't get back time spent practising, so I want to use the best quality materials I can get and to know that the only limitations are my own.

 

250 gsm extra smooth Bristol board is the best material I've found for fine writing* and if I was doing a finished piece I'd do it on that.

 

I've found this slim holder to be the most conducive to a light springy touch and general good penmanship. I find the plastic speedball holder or the wooden manuscript ones to be a bit heavy and thick, although oblique holders are a different matter. The blue cotton tape is to stop the polished metal slipping.

 

http://i.imgur.com/foMP7.jpg

 

If the clasp of the oblique holder is made from something that resists acidic corrosion it should be fine with iron-gall ink.I think many of them use brass sheet. The pen holder I use, the clasp is a glossy chrome metal and I've seen no rust after several weeks of getting the odd bit of ink in it. The holders are only £1.54 anyway, so I have 6 of them.

 

As Caliken said, that is how saliva is used with pens. I suppose you could spit on a tissue and rub a pen with that as well. I used to use a toothbrush and toothpaste to get the shellac off, but I got bored of that.

 

With respect to my writing, what we call copperplate was, historically, first and foremost a cursive hand, with the very large letters made piece by piece with many pen lifts being part of the learning process by fixing the forms in the mind. The lessons I'm following are intended to teach rapid, legible and graceful handwriting: a running hand, so I write as fast as I can make consistent with good form: c.15 minutes per page.

 

When I saw the capitals, I knew I had to have them, and that is why I learn it. Being able to write like that is something special indeed, and if I can do that one day then I may be satisfied.

-

*by "fine writing" I mean small delicate letters with light shades that need very fine hairlines to provide contrast, say a body height of 1 - 3mm.

 

http://i.imgur.com/bMZSF.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/7L3vt.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/HhEOp.jpg

Edited June 17, 2012 by Columba Livia

[eduardp]

New discovery in my practice, what I might have done wrong from the beginning. The nib needs thoroughly cleaning (saliva is the best) so that when I use it the ink adheres to it as in the Figure 2 C on page 2 presented here http://www.iampeth.c...ing_started.pdf ( I wanted to insert a picture, but I do not want to mess with copyrights). The ink flow changed completely and Higgins Calligraphy doesn't seem anymore like a pain.

Edited June 21, 2012 by eduardp

[fuchsiaprincess]

You're the second person that's mentioned saliva as cleaning agent for nibs. I'm having a hard time imagining keeping it on the nib to aid ink flow after the first half dozen ink drippings unless there is some ongoing moistening, especially with these inks.

 

As a matter of routine, I put a new nib in my mouth and suck it for a couple of minutes, allowing the saliva to remove any traces of oil. For me, this treatment always does the trick.

 

I used to pass the nib briefly over a flame to burn off the oil, but I spoilt too many nibs that way.

 

Ken

 

Hi Ken,

 

I am curious how a nib can be spoilt by passing over a flame. Hope you can enlighten me.

 

Thank you.

 

Regards,

Soki

[eduardp]

You're the second person that's mentioned saliva as cleaning agent for nibs. I'm having a hard time imagining keeping it on the nib to aid ink flow after the first half dozen ink drippings unless there is some ongoing moistening, especially with these inks.

 

As a matter of routine, I put a new nib in my mouth and suck it for a couple of minutes, allowing the saliva to remove any traces of oil. For me, this treatment always does the trick.

 

I used to pass the nib briefly over a flame to burn off the oil, but I spoilt too many nibs that way.

 

Ken

 

Hi Ken,

 

I am curious how a nib can be spoilt by passing over a flame. Hope you can enlighten me.

 

Thank you.

 

Regards,

Soki

 

What Ken ment was that heat changes the material properties of the nib, elasticity, braking point...

 

 

 

[smk]

New discovery in my practice, what I might have done wrong from the beginning. The nib needs thoroughly cleaning (saliva is the best) so that when I use it the ink adheres to it as in the Figure 2 C on page 2 presented here http://www.iampeth.c...ing_started.pdf ( I wanted to insert a picture, but I do not want to mess with copyrights). The ink flow changed completely and Higgins Calligraphy doesn't seem anymore like a pain.

 

Isn't it nice when these discoveries are made! This is one aspect of learning I enjoy above all others, these A'ha moments that are so sweet. Thanks for sharing this.

 

Salman

[caliken]

You're the second person that's mentioned saliva as cleaning agent for nibs. I'm having a hard time imagining keeping it on the nib to aid ink flow after the first half dozen ink drippings unless there is some ongoing moistening, especially with these inks.

 

As a matter of routine, I put a new nib in my mouth and suck it for a couple of minutes, allowing the saliva to remove any traces of oil. For me, this treatment always does the trick.

 

I used to pass the nib briefly over a flame to burn off the oil, but I spoilt too many nibs that way.

 

Ken

 

Hi Ken,

 

I am curious how a nib can be spoilt by passing over a flame. Hope you can enlighten me.

 

Thank you.

 

Regards,

Soki

 

What Ken ment was that heat changes the material properties of the nib, elasticity, braking point...

+1

[eduardp]

New discovery in my practice, what I might have done wrong from the beginning. The nib needs thoroughly cleaning (saliva is the best) so that when I use it the ink adheres to it as in the Figure 2 C on page 2 presented here http://www.iampeth.c...ing_started.pdf ( I wanted to insert a picture, but I do not want to mess with copyrights). The ink flow changed completely and Higgins Calligraphy doesn't seem anymore like a pain.

 

Isn't it nice when these discoveries are made! This is one aspect of learning I enjoy above all others, these A'ha moments that are so sweet. Thanks for sharing this.

 

Salman

 

So true. One of my few life revelation was that the most important is not the end of the road, but the journey you take, every small moment that gets you closer or, most of the time, away of you goal. You might even never arrive, but just trying is rewarding.

[fuchsiaprincess]

Hi all,

 

Like Salman, I am really happy to see this thread revived by some newcomers learning this beautiful script! Welcome and well done to the 'newbies'. It is lovely to see your practise sheets. Please keep them coming.

 

Warm regards,

Soki

[fuchsiaprincess]

You're the second person that's mentioned saliva as cleaning agent for nibs. I'm having a hard time imagining keeping it on the nib to aid ink flow after the first half dozen ink drippings unless there is some ongoing moistening, especially with these inks.

 

As a matter of routine, I put a new nib in my mouth and suck it for a couple of minutes, allowing the saliva to remove any traces of oil. For me, this treatment always does the trick.

 

I used to pass the nib briefly over a flame to burn off the oil, but I spoilt too many nibs that way.

 

Ken

 

Hi Ken,

 

I am curious how a nib can be spoilt by passing over a flame. Hope you can enlighten me.

 

Thank you.

 

Regards,

Soki

 

What Ken ment was that heat changes the material properties of the nib, elasticity, braking point...

 

Thanks! I was wondering about that myself. Unfortunately, I'm not particularly partial to the taste of steel nibs coated with oil…..

[fuchsiaprincess]

...

 

The papers are European, being British companies specifically. Conqueror paper can be bought online for £6 for 100 sheets (much cheaper in boxes of 500 sheets tho) and there is a shop in town which sells Basildon Bond paper for £4 for 50 sheets.

 

I write on both sides and cross-write, so I'm getting my moneys worth from each sheet. I use 9 - 12 sheets a day and my perspective is that I can get more money but I can't get back time spent practising, so I want to use the best quality materials I can get and to know that the only limitations are my own.

 

250 gsm extra smooth Bristol board is the best material I've found for fine writing* and if I was doing a finished piece I'd do it on that.

 

I've found this slim holder to be the most conducive to a light springy touch and general good penmanship. I find the plastic speedball holder or the wooden manuscript ones to be a bit heavy and thick, although oblique holders are a different matter. The blue cotton tape is to stop the polished metal slipping.

 

http://i.imgur.com/foMP7.jpg

 

If the clasp of the oblique holder is made from something that resists acidic corrosion it should be fine with iron-gall ink.I think many of them use brass sheet. The pen holder I use, the clasp is a glossy chrome metal and I've seen no rust after several weeks of getting the odd bit of ink in it. The holders are only £1.54 anyway, so I have 6 of them.

 

As Caliken said, that is how saliva is used with pens. I suppose you could spit on a tissue and rub a pen with that as well. I used to use a toothbrush and toothpaste to get the shellac off, but I got bored of that.

 

With respect to my writing, what we call copperplate was, historically, first and foremost a cursive hand, with the very large letters made piece by piece with many pen lifts being part of the learning process by fixing the forms in the mind. The lessons I'm following are intended to teach rapid, legible and graceful handwriting: a running hand, so I write as fast as I can make consistent with good form: c.15 minutes per page.

 

When I saw the capitals, I knew I had to have them, and that is why I learn it. Being able to write like that is something special indeed, and if I can do that one day then I may be satisfied.

-

*by "fine writing" I mean small delicate letters with light shades that need very fine hairlines to provide contrast, say a body height of 1 - 3mm.

 

http://i.imgur.com/bMZSF.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/7L3vt.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/HhEOp.jpg

 

Hi Columba Live,

 

Your practise sheets are beautiful! However, to my untrained eye, they look slightly more like Spencerian rather than Copperplate. It isn't a criticism, but simply an observation.

 

Regards,

Soki

[Columba Livia]

Your practise sheets are beautiful! However, to my untrained eye, they look slightly more like Spencerian rather than Copperplate. It isn't a criticism, but simply an observation.

 

Thanks. As to the appearance, historically, large letters written with many pen-lifts were part of the learning process in developing peoples handwriting, (though they might also be used by penman, engrossers, for titles &c). Such a technique is not suitable for rapid writing though, since you need minimal lifts of the pen and sharper flatter angles for increased speed, and actual "copperplate" handwriting never looked exactly like the large letters written with many lifts.

 

This is an angular "copperplate" running hand which became somewhat popular c. 1800-1850. In America, semi-angular forms (a middle ground between the by-then-old-fashioned roundhand and this sort of very angular running hand) developed in the 19th century, Spencerian being one of them.

 

Other factors which affected the appearance of "copperplate" included the switch from quills to steel pens, which allowed a finer line but using pressure to shade instead of the broad cut quill (often oblique) makes thinner shades more important and the very large writing possible with quills (1 1/2 inches for example) harder.

 

-

 

Thoughts:

 

-The slimmer the holder, the finer and more delicate your shades and hairlines can be, since you just cannot press as hard and have to let it sit lighter in your hand.

 

-You don't have to slant the paper, instead you can incline to the left, slanting your body instead, and put the paper to your right.

 

http://i.imgur.com/cQ7z6.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/F41B9.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/0DNpU.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/usVuh.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/zR2IR.jpg

Edited June 25, 2012 by Columba Livia

[caliken]

As to the appearance, historically, large letters written with many pen-lifts were part of the learning process in developing peoples handwriting, (though they might also be used by penman, engrossers, for titles &c). Such a technique is not suitable for rapid writing though, since you need minimal lifts of the pen and sharper flatter angles for increased speed, and actual "copperplate" handwriting never looked exactly like the large letters written with many lifts.

 

I can understand Soki's problem. This informative thread was started by Salman as he began learning 'Copperplate', being a handwritten version of 18th century 'English Roundhand'. Since then, he and several others, have achieved a high standard in writing this script, and many others aren't far behind.

 

Attractive as your 'John Cooper' hand is (and it is attractive) it doesn't resemble original Copperplate as it is practiced on this thread. - hence Soki's confusion. It's a development from a century later and is quite different in structure.

 

Also I would dispute your statement which I've quoted (above). Copperplate handwriting, as opposed to the drawn Engravers' script, is admittedly not a rapid script, but it is handwritten with very few pen lifts. In the following example, there were no lifts in the writing of the large E and R and very few in the words themselves.

 

Ken

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/EnglishRoundhand709.jpg

[caliken]

deleted

Edited March 28, 2014 by Ken Fraser

[waterproof]

As to the appearance, historically, large letters written with many pen-lifts were part of the learning process in developing peoples handwriting, (though they might also be used by penman, engrossers, for titles &c). Such a technique is not suitable for rapid writing though, since you need minimal lifts of the pen and sharper flatter angles for increased speed, and actual "copperplate" handwriting never looked exactly like the large letters written with many lifts.

 

I can understand Soki's problem. This informative thread was started by Salman as he began learning 'Copperplate', being a handwritten version of 18th century 'English Roundhand'. Since then, he and several others, have achieved a high standard in writing this script, and many others aren't far behind.

 

Attractive as your 'John Cooper' hand is (and it is attractive) it doesn't resemble original Copperplate as it is practiced on this thread. - hence Soki's confusion. It's a development from a century later and is quite different in structure.

 

Also I would dispute your statement which I've quoted (above). Copperplate handwriting, as opposed to the drawn Engravers' script, is admittedly not a rapid script, but it is handwritten with very few pen lifts. In the following example, there were no lifts in the writing of the large E and R and very few in the words themselves.

 

Ken

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/EnglishRoundhand709.jpg

 

Good writing and explaination,Ken! I got some question,In some lessons taught by past penmen like E.A.lupfer and W.A.Baird,they use the term "Roundhand" to discribe what they teach in their lessons.But then have a look at the letters,we know that if fact they are Engraver's Script.Can we say they are wrong?Today we use "Copperplate" to name both English Roundhand and Engraver's Script,is it good?Should we use the terms more exactly?I want to know your opinion.

[eduardp]

My new practice sheets. After almost two weeks I past through minuscule although it is a lot to improve. What I mentioned in the previous post in the matter still applies. Please feel to comment and show me what I'm doing wrong.

In h, l, f etc I'm not so sure about the upper part - does is starts in the right point? is it to wide?

 

 

Thank you for all your help.

 

[caliken]

waterproof,

 

"Copperplate" was originally called "English Roundhand" and dates from the middle of the Eighteenth Century.

The term is also used fairly freely in America relating to scripts written with a flexible nib. Engraver's script in the hands of a penman like Dr J Vitolo, is in appearance, very close to original Roundhand, but with many penlifts, it's drawn and not written.

 

I agree that it's very confusing. My own "Copperplate" is an attempt to get as close as I can to a handwritten form of the original "English Roundhand".

 

Ken

[caliken]

eduardp,

 

You're making rapid progress and you're producing very attractive writing.

 

A couple of points -

 

Aim for a little more consistency. Try to keep all downstrokes the same width and try to achieve a visual balance in inter-letter spacing.

 

In "Copperplate" all straight downstrokes are the same weight from top to bottom. In 'f' for example, the downstroke goes to full weight as soon as the curve at the top is completed. There are no tapered strokes as in Spencerian.

In its original 18th century form, h & l usually had straight downstrokes without loops, as in my example English Roundhand posted above.

 

In looped descenders as in g & y, the downstroke stays at full, even weight and only tapers at the very bottom to form the loop.

 

If you're looking for great exemplars to study, look here -

 

http://www.iampeth.com/books/noyes/noyes_penmanship_index.php

 

 

Ken

Edited June 26, 2012 by caliken

[Columba Livia]

...

 

The engraved copper plates of the 18th century were attempts to reproduce, as accurately as possible, pen made letterforms and to a remarkable degree they were successful. The copperplates are a method of reproduction, as woodcuts were before them and the steel plates, lithographic stone and the rubber blanket of later times, but the word has become attached to a certain style. It is hard to pin down exactly what "copperplate" is of course.

 

Now, the larger sizes of the 18th century English Roundhand differed from the smaller forms which you can see here in some 18th century writing:

 

http://i.imgur.com/GVj2U.jpg

 

In that picture, I pasted an example of John Coopers writing (I'm not so keen on calling it "John Cooper hand" since that implies it is something he invented, as opposed to presenting the reader with what he thought was an optimal form of copperplate writing).

 

As you can see, they are not dissimilar (the 'a' and 'n' show remarkable consistency) therefore I disagree with the idea that 19th century copperplate differs so much from the 18th century stuff that they cannot be considered as being copperplate. There is a place for both of them, and your choice between them may depend on what you want from your copperplate.

 

I'd like to show this small example from some copybooks circa 1894, which illustrates some of the variety and individual interpretations possible in copperplate:

 

http://i.imgur.com/dlOVE.jpg

 

There is plenty of room at the copperplate table, therefore no need to exclude by trying to preserve copperplate in amber at some arbitrary point.

 

I don't really understand what you're trying to say with my statement that you say you dispute: copperplate handwriting is rapid, which is why it was so successful as to come to dominate handwriting into the 20th century. I do not dispute that!

 

If you still have a problem, please PM me so we don't take up this thread with our quibbling and nitpicking.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Columba Livia

[caliken]

Now, the larger sizes of the 18th century English Roundhand differed from the smaller forms which you can see here in some 18th century writing:

 

Obviously the word 'Copperplate', is causing the problem here.

 

Over many years, the word 'Copperplate' became synonomous with 'English Roundhand' which emerged at the beginning of the 18th century, as this was the original means of reproduction.

 

If a client asks me for lettering in Copperplate, we both know exactly what he means.

 

All of the other participants on this lengthy thread are studying and practicing a very specific style of lettering, as described by Salman in his original post and as epitomised in George Bickham's 'The Universal Penman'.

 

Like you, I don't like calling your writing "John Cooper's hand" but I know of no other name for it.

 

Part of the joy of this forum is the lively, civilized discussions which emerge from time to time!

I don't have a problem and there is no need for PMs.

 

Ken

 

added:

I don't understand your reference to 'the larger sizes of 18th century English Roundhand'. There are many examples which were written very small indeed - or have I misunderstood?

Edited June 27, 2012 by caliken