Learning Copperplate...

[Columba Livia]

Caps, A and B.

 

http://i.imgur.com/eYKyg.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/qfX9q.jpg

Edited June 12, 2012 by Columba Livia

[beachwalker]

Thanks for the welcome, folks - and the words of advice.

 

'eduardp' - Thanks for the encouragement. I look forward to your efforts showing here. Based on what you offered in your post, you have a lot to offer.

 

'ljkd13' - Your advice is good. I'll add additional slant lines, hoping to get around my left handedness and lack of slant. I agree with you completely on the 'd' - and there are a few others that I have to unlearn and relearn.

 

'Najdorf'- welcome! Nice work and a great start.

 

'Salman' - I begin each session with Caliken's 'drill' -and return to it if I find myself getting sloppy or rushed. Thanks to the weather today, I had a couple of 'found' hours to spend with pen and ink - and a brand new ream of HP 32# laser paper - I don't know what took me so long to pick it up. Wished I had it long ago. I'm now convinced that paper quality hasn't been working in my favor. And I'm certain that some of the shakiness was poor paper. With time today, I tried the 3:2:3 arrangement and found that I like it greatly using both the 5mm and 1cm grids - and plenty of slant lines. Hope to have something back to this thread to show that there is hope for old left handers. Now, when will that John Neal order get here....?

 

In the meantime, lots of drills on the basics, and plenty of Salman's groups of five letters, and picking the best to build the next group. I find that working with sets of like letters (a,c, o, and b and d, and m and n, and - well, you get the idea) works well for me, as does a conscious visualization of what I want to accomplish, rather than blind repeation.

 

Again,thanks for the welcome, advice and encouragement. I think my initial offer was a baseline and that future offerings will show progress, letter set by letter set.

 

Regards, John

[caliken]

For all those interested in this beautiful script, have a look at this book from IAMPETH. It was written in America by Enoch Noyes, one hundred years after the publication of "The Universal Penman"

 

There is little in the way of practical instruction, but the exemplars are truly magnificent.

 

I've printed off a copy and keep it on my shelf, next to The Universal Penman.

I can think of no higher praise.

 

Ken

 

http://www.iampeth.com/books/noyes/noyes_penmanship_index.php

[eduardp]

John,

 

I attach the guide sheets I'm using and maybe they will help you more. They are a modified version of those found at this address http://homepages.rpi...let/guidelines/ where you can also find a script to create your own.

copperplatepaper_6mm.pdf

copperplatepaper_8mm.pdf

copperplatepaper_10mm.pdf

[Najdorf]

First try with words... (in first i mean its not totally bad, real firsts are horror)

Lots of works a head but its just too much fun,

 

Its crumpy, and i still cant predict how the pen react ( too much ink, dont give me straight square cut off and generally do what he want instead of what i want

anyway...

 

from now ill switch to the gillotte 404 from the hunt 22.

 

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8335/img074copy.jpg

[beachwalker]

John,

 

I attach the guide sheets I'm using and maybe they will help you more. They are a modified version of those found at this address http://homepages.rpi...let/guidelines/ where you can also find a script to create your own.

 

Thanks much!

 

I've been using an 8mm guide sheet but the one you provide will work better -and I like being able to generate sheets with the slant line imbedded. One question though -to use the script to build my own, what program doc I need to run? I'm on my iPad now, but will fire up the big desktop to pull your guide sheets and the script down to use them. Practice is going well with the larger x-height. And attention to slant is definitely improving. Hope all goes well with your efforts. Again, thanks.

 

Regards, John

[beachwalker]

Najdorf -

 

Nice!!

 

I hope to do as well - soon????

 

Your letters are a bit different than what I've seen in most of the samples recommended - and I like having variation. What are you using for a reference?

 

Hope to have a sample up soon - but probably no words. Yet.

 

Regards, John

Edited June 13, 2012 by beachwalker

[eduardp]

 

Thanks much!

 

I've been using an 8mm guide sheet but the one you provide will work better -and I like being able to generate sheets with the slant line imbedded. One question though -to use the script to build my own, what program doc I need to run? I'm on my iPad now, but will fire up the big desktop to pull your guide sheets and the script down to use them. Practice is going well with the larger x-height. And attention to slant is definitely improving. Hope all goes well with your efforts. Again, thanks.

 

Regards, John

 

You should have python installed and the reportlab package (here are the installation instructions http://www.reportlab.com/software/installation/) . After all is setup if you get an error that says that a non-ascii character is missing add after first line this: # coding: utf-8

 

Hope it helps.

 

 

[beachwalker]

Caliken - thank as for the fantastic reference.

 

I find myself paying much more attention to details now - I note that there is no sample of the lower case, as there are of the upper case, which didn't show a 'W', but there are examples of 'W's included in words provided. I think a lower case sample can be developed from the materials provided. One question, though - on page 13, last line there are two different 'V's in use, one of which doesn't show up in the sample upper case alphabets given, but is the same as the 'V' in many of the other references I'm familiar with. Artistic latitude?

 

Thanks for your insights and encouragement.

 

Regards, John

[beachwalker]

 

Thanks much!

 

I've been using an 8mm guide sheet but the one you provide will work better -and I like being able to generate sheets with the slant line imbedded. One question though -to use the script to build my own, what program doc I need to run? I'm on my iPad now, but will fire up the big desktop to pull your guide sheets and the script down to use them. Practice is going well with the larger x-height. And attention to slant is definitely improving. Hope all goes well with your efforts. Again, thanks.

 

Regards, John

 

You should have python installed and the reportlab package (here are the installation instructions http://www.reportlab.com/software/installation/) . After all is setup if you get an error that says that a non-ascii character is missing add after first line this: # coding: utf-8

 

Hope it helps.

 

Thanks. Will give it a shot this evening. My computer cringes and sometimes plays dead whenever it thinks I'm doing something with a script other than running it. Regards, John

[Najdorf]

Thanks beachwalker

 

Im using a book call "mastering copperplate calligraphy", and lots of iampeth.com videos.

whats your ref? because i must say i havent seen that variation of yours regarding copperplate.

 

looking forward to see your process.

 

good luck.

[beachwalker]

Thanks beachwalker

 

Im using a book call "mastering copperplate calligraphy", and lots of iampeth.com videos.

whats your ref? because i must say i havent seen that variation of yours regarding copperplate.

 

looking forward to see your process.

 

good luck.

 

Good day, Najdorf

 

I have been using a style sheet provided by the instructor in the class that I mentioned. It varies a bit from some of the styles found on IAMPETH but she encouraged us to make good use of the resources on that site. So, I am. My current style is from the lessons there:

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/engrossers_script/VitoloScriptHandout.pdf

 

I'm also using Dr Vitolo's letter groupings as the basis for my practice sessions.

 

Regards, John

[Najdorf]

I think its a bit better...

 

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/3104/img075copy.jpg

[beachwalker]

What happens when the phone rings in the scriptorium...

 

 

I want to let folks know that I'm working...struggling. Here's the fruit of several day's efforts (certainly not full time). I'm working at an x-height of 8mm using a Hunt 101 nib - not my favorite, but the John Neal order is still outstanding. It's on HP 32# laser paper - which is prone to shedding, hence some thicker lines than desired, especially after crossing through another (wet) stroke. These are words using, primarily, the letters from Dr. Vitolo's Group I lower case letters.

 

I feel the slant consistency is getting better, and that the letter forms are becoming more predictable. Using a two stroke process for the 'd' has helped, but the 's' needs work - should the top of the letter extend just past the x-height, as was my first instruction with it (and the 'r'), or remain below? I do know that the loop at the top is too large, but that's partly the issue. What part of the letter should reflect the slant? The narrow up stroke or the wider down stroke? Though the shaky hand is still evident, it's not what it was. Working at a larger x-height has been a good move, as has the better paper. Still, the spelling, among other things, can improve.

 

 

Thanks for your input. Regards, John

[Najdorf]

Hey john,

i think its a good start, and it look that you handle the pen nicely.

 

of course is just my point of view but i think you have to keep in mind that most of the letters based on basic shapes, the "oval" the "i" and the "v" (for lower case) look at the firsts page of this post

and i think the key of getting good result is to master those shapes and actually thats my struggle too, i almost dont practice the letters only those shapes, and the consistent

of those shapes in letter make it look good.

 

also all the stem loop letters b h l k are not connected by single up stroke, theres the lead and theres the stem loop (take a closer look at the "l" video he explain it there)

and also the "s" its 2 strokes dont afraid to pick up the pen, look how many time he pick the pen

 

last, there is the thing with proportions, the size of the letter and the width of the shaded stroke, its something to pay attention to.

oh, and dont forget the square cut off.

 

I just said what im saying to myself...

 

good luck

[Columba Livia]

-Look at where the thickest part of a shade should be, for example you may notice that I made some of them too thick too low down on the E & back loop of the D and too high on the stem of the D, which robs them of their grace and elegance.

 

-Good penmanship requires good paper, a good pen and good ink. All of them have to work together and neglecting any one of them will impact on results.

 

-How you sit, how you hold the pen (holder) and how you rest your arm on the table are all of critical importance.

 

-Be careful with printer papers, I've found that even 100gsm can be too soft and absorbent of the ink, increasing the width of hairlines. Conqueror diamond/high white wove paper (with the watermark) is good, and Basildon bond paper is also good. Paper sold as writing paper can often be far better than printer paper. One of the best papers I've found, for being smooth and giving good hairlines is Rymans superior plain A4 (though alas, it has holes for a ring binder).

 

-Iron gall inks will produce finer lines and flow in a much more manageable fashion than pigment based inks, although they will shorten the life of the point. I dilute the ink with distilled water to try and producer a finer line still. In addition, I it dissolves(?) the shellac coating which is put on nibs, so there is no need to give them a wash or a scrubbing with toothpaste. Applying a bit of saliva with a tissue helps though. I think there is something in saliva which aids in flow.

 

-Throw a nib away as soon as the point starts scratching, even if its right out of the box, since you're wasting your time in trying to use a scratchy nib.

 

I've found the Gillott 404/Hunt 56 to be of little use for the lessons I'm following ("Art of Writing", Cooper, 1860) since they're stiff and scratchy. If you've had some vintage examples of those nibs, you'll notice that the slits on the side are much longer (even then they're shorter than the 303s slits) and they're much more elastic and less scratchy. I'm still using Gillott 303s though.

 

404s were sold, in the 19th century, as being for "rapid writing", and the 303 for "fine writing".

 

http://i.imgur.com/rgTq1.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/7k9Sn.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/ApvOV.jpg

Edited June 15, 2012 by Columba Livia

[beachwalker]

Columba Livia - good evening!

 

Great points, well expressed. As a left hander, I'm challenged with overcoming past bad habits - and I think I'm winning. For some of us, overcoming our limitations as left handers need to be right up there with posture, etc. I couldn't agree more about the quality of materials. I'm not familiar with any of the paper brands you mentioned - are they European? While I can understand the preference for writing paper over copier paper, writing paper, for the general use we seek it for, is far too expensive in the quantity we use. A good printing paper (not the same as run of the mill copy paper, in my estimation), designed for the acceptance of ink, is a different matter. If a reasonable priced paper is available, and it behaves well with inks, why not use it?

 

If, with the full knowledge that (1) I am not going to make a living selling my script with it as a platform, and (2) it's limitations are known and accounted for as a practice platform - inks, nibs, even formatting are selected to make the most of the available surface, I think i can work past some - not all - limitations. Personally, I'd like to progress to the point of being good enough to justify picking up a few sheets of high quality hot pressed watercolor paper on a regular basis to use for something other than drills and practice. If we waited for the opportunity for having the ideal combination of materials, I suspect that there would be far fewer of us. No criticism intended - just trying to convey a different approach. Like I said at the outset, I agree with your comments and observations - I just cannot put the more costly parts into practice on a daily basis.

 

I am, though, anxious to try the iron gall inks, provided I have a better supply line for nibs. What kind of holder do you use? Would this ink also be harmful of the metal nib holder in an oblique pen?

 

You're the second person that's mentioned saliva as cleaning agent for nibs. I'm having a hard time imagining keeping it on the nib to aid ink flow after the first half dozen ink drippings unless there is some ongoing moistening, especially with these inks.

 

Your script, by the way, is beautiful. Is it something that would work on a regular basis as a 'cursive' handwriting? I'd be interested in learning why you selected it to pursue.

 

Regards, John

[caliken]

You're the second person that's mentioned saliva as cleaning agent for nibs. I'm having a hard time imagining keeping it on the nib to aid ink flow after the first half dozen ink drippings unless there is some ongoing moistening, especially with these inks.

 

As a matter of routine, I put a new nib in my mouth and suck it for a couple of minutes, allowing the saliva to remove any traces of oil. For me, this treatment always does the trick.

 

I used to pass the nib briefly over a flame to burn off the oil, but I spoilt too many nibs that way.

 

Ken

[eduardp]

So as this thread seems to have a new start and as I started learning Copperplate, I thought it will be right to post my results after one week. Last weekend I started my first exercises (I'm using the lessons of W.A. Baird from IAMPETH) countless pages of the shapes and letters from Lessons 1 and 2. After a week the today practice is presented in the attachments. (Sorry for the quality of the picture and if they are not straight but from the guidesheets the slope is visible, in first imagine I use the 8mm and in the second the 6mm guidesheet).

What I've learned so far:

1. It is not so easy as it looked when I was just playing with the nibs.

2. I need to wright big (8 mm guidesheet is more suited) so I can spot the problems.

3. I need to speed down and understand it is not handwriting but the letters must actually be drawn.

4. I need to constantly move the paper so that the slope is not missed.

5. The way the pressure is applied makes a huge difference.

6. The nib is very important for the dimensions of the letters (see legend in image 2, in the first one I used the same nib as in Legend 1).

7. Practice is the most important

 

With what I'm still struggling:

1. Keeping the slope, the same space between letters

2. The consistency of the shade - the same thickness in u for examples, not to start or end to late in o, i, etc...

3. Hand shaking - the fine lines are not all the time smooth.

4. Stop thinking so much about how it should be done and let the hand glide, most of the time it knows better.

 

Please feel free to comment in any way. I really need advices as I don't go to any calligraphy class and here is nobody I can ask for help.

 

[smk]

eduardp - you are off to a truly superb start. Your observations are spot on and I can only applaud your methodical approach. I would be happy with a practice sheet like the first one

 

W.A. Baird's book on IAMPETH is a great resource. It defined the style for me and helped train my eye to understand the nuances of this lovely hand.

 

I'll be looking forward to your next upload.

 

Salman