Learning Copperplate...

[fuchsiaprincess]

I feel like I might be using too small lines for the nib I have or something. I the ink just seems to gush more than I want it too. Again, may be a pressure issue :embarrassed_smile:

 

Which nib and ink are you using? I usually touch the nib against the side of the inkwell after dipping it, so that excess ink can be deposited back into the well.

[WestLothian]

A drop or two of water can help with some fountain pen inks that have too many additives to make them "free-flowing". This can be done in a small test dish until you get the mix right.

 

Soapy nibs can also make them gush as the detergents make the ink rush off the nib too easily for hairlines to be possible.

 

Even the paper dampness can have an influence - you can lightly chalk the paper with pounce powder to get a more regular and dry finish.

[hlyuqi]

Hey Salman,recently I am translating some lessons into Chinese for Copperplate lover to read,but I get stuck in translating the sentence"a fault which seems to be a general one to have a saggy looking loop(the loop is the up loop in b,h,k,ect),which is caused by keeping the loop the same width almost its entire length"(from LESSONS IN ROUNDHAND by W.A..

I really have no idea how a saggy looking loop look like,so can you write a saggy looking loop for me ?

[WestLothian]

If it is the interpretation of "saggy", I would suggest the description is of a loop hanging heavily under its own weight like a catenary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary.

This suggests the hairline deviating too far to the right in the lower part of its curve, rather than aiming to be a straighter shape from the x-height crossing to the tangent of the top of the loop.

I agree that a diagram would be best for your lessons.

 

 

Edited January 19, 2012 by WestLothian

[smk]

Hlyuqi - I'm not sure I know exactly what a saggy loop would look like. This comment is in relation to the instructions for making sure the main stroke travels to the left as it begins to descend so as to make the shape of the loop look like the shape of an apple seed (i.e. the counter space created inside the loop is balanced and even). If the main stroke comes down straight from the very top the loop will be flat on one side. I think this is what the writer is trying to warn us against.

 

I will surely draw my interpretation of a saggy loop but please consider it only my take on it. I'm not entirely sure if I'm right in my understanding.

 

I think it would help if your instructions clarified what a perfect loop looks like e.g. the shape of the counter and then go on to give examples of different loops where the counter is not done correctly (and pointing it out). I'm sure the saggy loop would be one of the incorrect ones even if we don't know exactly which one it is :-)

 

Salman

[smk]

I feel like I might be using too small lines for the nib I have or something. I the ink just seems to gush more than I want it too. Again, may be a pressure issue :embarrassed_smile:

 

Flake - are you using either a Brause 76 or the Blue Pumpkin nib. I have found these nibs to be quite problematic in exactly the same way you describe. When doing the shades the ink just runs down into a big blob even after cleaning the nib thoroughly. I have seen improvement in the 76 after adding some Gum Arabic to the ink but the Blue Pumpkin still refuses to cooperate.

 

Do you have any other nibs to try out? Remember to get rid of the oil on them before use.

 

Salman

[Flake]

I feel like I might be using too small lines for the nib I have or something. I the ink just seems to gush more than I want it too. Again, may be a pressure issue :embarrassed_smile:

 

Flake - are you using either a Brause 76 or the Blue Pumpkin nib. I have found these nibs to be quite problematic in exactly the same way you describe. When doing the shades the ink just runs down into a big blob even after cleaning the nib thoroughly. I have seen improvement in the 76 after adding some Gum Arabic to the ink but the Blue Pumpkin still refuses to cooperate.

 

Do you have any other nibs to try out? Remember to get rid of the oil on them before use.

 

Salman

 

It is a blue pumpkin. I wipe it on the edge and it still blobs. It might be that the walnut ink is too thin for it, I dont know. But when it works properly I like it much more than the gillot 303, the 303 seems to scratch my paper more. Maybe it's time to get new paper....

[smk]

It is a blue pumpkin. I wipe it on the edge and it still blobs. It might be that the walnut ink is too thin for it, I dont know. But when it works properly I like it much more than the gillot 303, the 303 seems to scratch my paper more. Maybe it's time to get new paper....

 

This might be a good opportunity for developing a light touch. With a properly light touch the nib might sound scratchy but will not actually catch on the paper - this is something you will gain with practice anyway but if you concentrate on this for a few pages with the 303, you'll be ahead of the game with superb hairlines that'll make your script pop out.

 

Salman

[Flake]

I'll try that. it sounds so bad and does pull a little paper, I guess i'm pressing too hard. i think the noise probably maes me think it scratches more than it actually does. Next practice session will only be with the 303, i'll force myself to like it!

[WestLothian]

I was quite depressed about the scratching of the 303 when I first got one, too.

 

The Gillott 404 was a nice stepping stone to get copperplate gentle shades with moderate pressure.

 

I then tried the Leonardt Principal nib and that seemed far less scratchy.

 

When I next tried the 303 I realised that it was actually me and my pressure that had changed.

 

For faster writing on coarser papers you can give the nib a bit of a smoothing using a kit from Richard Binder's shop.

 

I hope this helps.

[smk]

I'll try that. it sounds so bad and does pull a little paper, I guess i'm pressing too hard. i think the noise probably maes me think it scratches more than it actually does. Next practice session will only be with the 303, i'll force myself to like it!

 

I am of the opinion that a good tool should not make its presence felt. It should let the user concentrate on what is being done rather than use up his/her concentration on other things. I merely suggested this exercise as a way to benefit from a given situation.

 

I actually found the 404 to be noisier than the 303 and at least as scratchy. A Zebra G nib is a good nib that is relatively smooth although some people find that scratchy for Spencerian. I believe that is because of the speed of execution and it should be fine for Copperplate.

 

Salman

[hlyuqi]

If it is the interpretation of "saggy", I would suggest the description is of a loop hanging heavily under its own weight like a catenary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary.

This suggests the hairline deviating too far to the right in the lower part of its curve, rather than aiming to be a straighter shape from the x-height crossing to the tangent of the top of the loop.

I agree that a diagram would be best for your lessons.

 

 

Thank you very much！It's very helpful.

[hlyuqi]

Hlyuqi - I'm not sure I know exactly what a saggy loop would look like. This comment is in relation to the instructions for making sure the main stroke travels to the left as it begins to descend so as to make the shape of the loop look like the shape of an apple seed (i.e. the counter space created inside the loop is balanced and even). If the main stroke comes down straight from the very top the loop will be flat on one side. I think this is what the writer is trying to warn us against.

 

I will surely draw my interpretation of a saggy loop but please consider it only my take on it. I'm not entirely sure if I'm right in my understanding.

 

I think it would help if your instructions clarified what a perfect loop looks like e.g. the shape of the counter and then go on to give examples of different loops where the counter is not done correctly (and pointing it out). I'm sure the saggy loop would be one of the incorrect ones even if we don't know exactly which one it is :-)

 

Salman

Thanks Salman~I think I‘ve know how to do.

[Hex]

I am thinking that this is a good thread in which to post my plea.

 

I am trying to switch my technique to the "whole arm" method rather than just using my fingers and I really need help in practice to develop the long sweeping curved lines in Spencerian and the ascenders/descenders in calligraphy.

 

Could someone point me to an exercise to help improve the long, sweeping lines ?

What I have been doing is just to do them, over and over again.

Will this type of practice yield results ?

 

When I am practicing the whole arm method, the long lines are jagged, sagging, and ugly.

 

thanks

[Mickey]

 

I actually found the 404 to be noisier than the 303 and at least as scratchy. A Zebra G nib is a good nib that is relatively smooth although some people find that scratchy for Spencerian. I believe that is because of the speed of execution and it should be fine for Copperplate.

 

Salman

 

My problem with both the 404 and 303 is the number of them I have to toss out before finding a good one. The roughly comparable Hunt nibs (56 and 22), I find are much more consistent.

 

As for the Zebra G: other than the Nikko G, it is, in my experience, the least scratchy and most rugged nib capable of truly fine hairlines, plus its resistance to IG corrosion makes it an excellent day in day out nib. Hint: some scratchiness is just dried ink accumulating near the tip. Occasional dips in clean water is an easy cure.

 

Actually, I think G nibs are little stiff for Copperplate and better suited to unstressed (monoline) to moderately stressed Spencerian.

[WestLothian]

I may be a bit obsessive, but if I find a nib scratchy I will examine it under a magnifying loupe and then realign it or if necessary I reshape it smooth.

Sometimes the tines get slightly opened or splayed and that makes the hairlines catch the paper fibres as the sharpest inner corners are exposed.

If this has happened a gentle manipulation of the tines repeatedly crossing left-over-right then right-over-left in a scissors movement will re-tighten them.

This makes the nibs last a bit longer; until they are either badly corroded or very worn out of shape.

[caliken]

I have had no experience with Zebra and Nikko nibs but, of the nibs I do have, I like Gillott 404, 303, Hunt 101, Brause 76, Leonardt Pricipal and Brause 66ef.

 

I must have been extremely lucky because I've very rarely had to discard a new nib. I find all of the above, smooth and easy to use. I often prefer to write in silence, and the occasional scratchiness doesn't bother me at all - in fact it keeps me company!

 

With regard to ink flow problems and nibs snagging on hairline upstrokes, I always add 11 drops of gum arabic to every new 2 1/2 oz bottle of ink. I write with a very light touch with the nib low to the paper, and rarely have any problem. I always use very smooth, uncoated paper, which helps.

 

Today, my favourite nibs are a 404 which is as smooth as butter and virtually silent on the paper, and a Brause 76 which had slight flow problems initially, but now writes magnificently with huge flex and totally consistent flow.

 

Tomorrow may well be different, as I switch from nib to nib for different purposes.

 

Ken

Edited January 20, 2012 by caliken

[Flake]

Thanks guys, your input has been very helpful. I think I'm going to keep trying with the 303, it's very likely me pressing too hard.

 

I do think my next order will include the 404, the Zebra G and probably a brause. Hopefully I can train myself to them a little better or find one that suits me better.

 

I guess it shows my ignorance that I wouldn't expect one nib to be too terribly different from another.

[Mickey]

I have had no experience with Zebra and Nikko nibs but, of the nibs I do have, I like Gillott 404, 303, Hunt 101, Brause 76, Leonardt Pricipal and Brause 66ef.

 

I must have been extremely lucky because I've very rarely had to discard a new nib. I find all of the above, smooth and easy to use. I often prefer to write in silence, and the occasional scratchiness doesn't bother me at all - in fact it keeps me company!

 

With regard to ink flow problems and nibs snagging on hairline upstrokes, I always add 11 drops of gum arabic to every new 2 1/2 oz bottle of ink. I write with a very light touch with the nib low to the paper, and rarely have any problem. I always use very smooth, uncoated paper, which helps.

 

Ken

 

You're quite right. On smooth papers, the 303 and 404 do very well (I like the 404, especially), but I also use a lot of Strathmore Writing Wove, which is slightly textured. On such surfaces, minor misalignment or tine imbalance results in too many page spattering, nib springing snags, at least for me. On lightly textured papers, I've had more reliable performance from the Hunt 22 and 56 (also the Hunt 101 and Brause 66ef). My touch is hardly heavy, but almost surely not as well schooled and even as yours.

[Ink Sandwich]

Even though this thread is a bit intimidating considering the quality of many posts and samples of Copperplate, I thought I'd give it a shot and post what I've written a couple of hours ago. (Sorry for the bad quality, I only have a cell phone).

 

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9699/soldiersoldguard.jpg

 

Written on Clairefontaine paper, using Winsor & Netwon Liquid Indian Ink and a Brause Cito Fein nib.