Learning Copperplate...

[WestLothian]

Which is the "best" capital W to use, or does it depend on the context?

 

 

I like the third one from the left, top line. However, it does depend on the context to a certain extent.

 

What ink did you use? It is lovely!

 

Regards,

Soki

 

Thank you Soki,

 

The ink is Noodler's Black Swan in Australian Roses fresh from Goulet.

I was applying it too liberally really: it deserves to be used more subtly.

The "W" question came from looking at various copperplate examples

trying to find the most suitable compromise for fountain pen use.

 

Regards,

Alistair

Edited December 22, 2011 by WestLothian

[smk]

The first example is 'clunky' and clumsy and the second displays the elegant flow characteristic of this magnificent script.

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/comparisons300.jpg

 

Totally agree. Thank you for explaining this so clearly.

 

Salman

[WestLothian]

It is maybe not correct Copperplate and more to do with cursive round-hand but I would like to ask about forming the narrowing part of a shade.

 

I was experimenting with slowing the nib on the down-strokes at around 1/2 the x-height to "re-absorb" some ink before the up-curve and next liaison hairline.

It this a good practice or cheating?

 

I do most of my writing in lined journals during work and so I try to work with an x-height of about 3mm - would this be considered too small?

Should I practise at a larger size with double spacing? [ some nasty samples are attached ].

 

Any help and advice would be appreciated.

 

Alistair

 

 

Edited December 23, 2011 by WestLothian

[fuchsiaprincess]

Hi Alistair,

 

That is beautiful! Your slope is very consistent, which is very impressive indeed considering the fact that you are using a normal fountain pen instead of an oblique pen-holder.

 

I, too, find the narrowing of the downstroke quite difficult to overcome. I generally 'cheat' by returning to the letter and touching it up Ken Fraser posted a video of how to correct for this properly in this thread, but I cannot find it right this moment. Perhaps you have better eyes than me

 

Take care and keep writing such beautiful prose!

 

Warm regards,

Soki

[Columba Livia]

I recently got hold of this. A mortgage document for 2 houses in London, originally made in 1872 and transferred several times thereafter:

 

http://i.imgur.com/DrTKD.jpg

 

Is done on vellum. The writers would have almost certainly used a straight penholder, since oblique pen holders do not seem to have come into even professional calligraphic use, let alone standard usage, outside of America in the 19th/early 20th century. Ink would be iron gall ink, often called "writing fluid" at the time.

 

The lower pair of names were done by a different person I believe and you might note that the letters are slightly more angular on the turns compared to the upper ones (look at a and g). Note also the long S in Mssrs Heffer P. Liddicoat.

 

See how consistent the minuscules are (this is Liddicoat):

 

http://i.imgur.com/7JrRl.jpg

 

As far as I can tell there are no guidelines or ruling for slant, baseline and header.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Columba Livia

[caliken]

I recently got hold of this. A mortgage document for 2 houses in London, originally made in 1872 and transferred several times thereafter:

 

Although American Engrossers/Engravers script is drawn and not written, as correctly maintained by IAMPETH, I have argued for years, that there is a handwritten alternative form of this script.

 

This example is written smoothly from left to right with minimal pen lifts as in any other type of cursive handwriting. As the route of its development was handwriting - Copperplate engraving - handwriting, it is reasonable to call it Copperplate.

 

It's perfectly possible to write Copperplate with a straight pen; it's just easier with an oblique holder. This example is actually written freehand at the ideal slope angle of 55 degrees from the horizontal.

 

Interestingly, the lines of smaller writing at the top left, are from the same stable, but written rapidly with a flex nib in the basic handwriting of the day. So in the same document, we have a formal version and a rapidly written version, both directly descended from the engraved Copperplates of a century earlier.

 

Thanks for posting.

 

Ken

[WestLothian]

In this scan of a parish record from Scotland in 1779, the writer is sloping from 45 to 50 degrees in a free round hand. (I collected this whilst researching our family tree).

The lower case letter "r"s are interesting in places, suggesting an alternative form more similar to the capital?

 

 

[smk]

It is maybe not correct Copperplate and more to do with cursive round-hand but I would like to ask about forming the narrowing part of a shade.

 

I was experimenting with slowing the nib on the down-strokes at around 1/2 the x-height to "re-absorb" some ink before the up-curve and next liaison hairline.

It this a good practice or cheating?

 

I do most of my writing in lined journals during work and so I try to work with an x-height of about 3mm - would this be considered too small?

Should I practise at a larger size with double spacing? [ some nasty samples are attached ].

 

Any help and advice would be appreciated.

 

Alistair

 

 

Alistair - your examples are in no way nasty. The writing is indeed pleasing to the eye.

 

I have a fixation on not bringing the shade on curved strokes too low and I do find myself slowing down about halfway down these strokes. I don't find this necessary on straight shaded strokes.

 

My experience with flex nib fountain pens is limited to the Noodler's Creeper. On those pens I found that it was the size of the tipping that caused me to drag up more ink than I wanted on hairlines after shaded strokes. Reshaping the tip with some gentle grinding has fixed this for me.

 

As for the x-height, I found that I was able to learn much quicker with larger x-heights (1 cm in my case.) I started out with 6mm. In my limited experience I think 3mm is too small to really get a handle on the proper letter forms. IMO a few practice sessions with larger x-heights will benefit your writing at smaller sizes.

 

Salman

[WestLothian]

Salman,

 

Many thanks for your kind and encouraging reply.

 

I have worked with restoring old fountain nibs and pens and have been interested in playing with steel dip pens since my childhood.

 

My father even once made oak apple ink from galls for us to experiment. More recently I have tried to study and develop through concentrated practise and research into addressing early copy-book and manuscript written examples.

 

I will be now be concentrating on working at the larger x-heights as you suggest, and I will use the finer and flexible dip nibs and also experiment with the oblique nib holders.

 

I hope this will eventually have a good influence on my working handwriting too!

 

Best wishes,

Alistair

[sniper910]

Has anyone here used Higgins pigment based ink with a dip pen yet? I got some today and when I tried it, it seemed to bleed a little. i'm not sure if it's the paper or not, but I don't want to test on a full sheet of my sketchbook paper and find out the ink is too thin for use with a dip pen.

[Mickey]

Has anyone here used Higgins pigment based ink with a dip pen yet? I got some today and when I tried it, it seemed to bleed a little. i'm not sure if it's the paper or not, but I don't want to test on a full sheet of my sketchbook paper and find out the ink is too thin for use with a dip pen.

 

I have no direct with Higgins pigment based inks, but I understand a lot of people add a drop or two of gum Arabic to Higgins Eternal for pointed pen work. Perhaps the same is true for their pigmented inks.

 

For what it's worth, I've tried Calli pigmented ink for pointed pen work and wasn't all that happy. On the other hand, I've used some of the McCaffery's colored inks (indigo, red, and red-violet), as well as their IG ink, and all were very well behaved on most papers, with little or no feathering. I really like the indigo for everyday writing and used the red for this year's Xmas cards. (It isn't a real Xmas red, but at least it flows well and stays where I put it.)

[smk]

Sniper - I use Higgins Eternal with both pointed and square nibs. I add a few drops of Gum Arabic to the ink to make it flow better off pointed nibs. The ink is well behaved with square edged nibs.

 

The exercise in post #762 above was written using Higgins Eternal with Gum Arabic on regular inkjet paper.

 

S.

[sniper910]

Thanks Mickey. Since they were a gift I wanted to use the ink. I seen some liquid Winsor-newton gum Arabic, but it says water color on the label. Is this the right one to use? Since it's a little pricey at $11 for a small bottle, though I know it'll last me a while since you don't use much of it each time or very often. I just wanted to double check before I went ahead and ordered it. I'll also look into that mccafferey's ink you mentioned too, thanks

[sniper910]

Thanks salman! Not too sure on the difference between the Higgins eternal and the one I have, but what kind of gum Arabic is this? I think both inks are pigment based right? Just wondering if the gum Arabic I'm looking at is the correct one

[smk]

Liquid Gum Arabic is a bit pricey. Its also used to make watercolor and gouache flow better and to keep them from drying too soon. Its made from the sap from Acacia trees. You can also find it in powdered form which takes a bit of time to dissolve in ink (half an hour or more) but works just as well and should be much cheaper than W&N's.

 

Salman

[sniper910]

Ok, thanks for the avice.

[Flake]

I know im late to the game but this thread has gotten me to order a cheao oblique holder, a cheap straight holder, a bunch of nice nibs (gillot 303 and another blue somethingsomething) and some walnut ink tio try this! I'm hooked on copperplate now!

[fuchsiaprincess]

I know im late to the game but this thread has gotten me to order a cheao oblique holder, a cheap straight holder, a bunch of nice nibs (gillot 303 and another blue somethingsomething) and some walnut ink tio try this! I'm hooked on copperplate now!

 

 

Welcom, Flake! We look forward to seeing some of your work.

[sniper910]

hello flake. is that the blue pumpkin nib you're referring to? i haven't had much luck with that nib lately, hopefully your luck will be better. i have a guillot 303 and love it!

[Hex]

I know im late to the game but this thread has gotten me to order a cheao oblique holder, a cheap straight holder, a bunch of nice nibs (gillot 303 and another blue somethingsomething) and some walnut ink tio try this! I'm hooked on copperplate now!

 

Welcome Flake and you'll find a lot of nice folks here.

 

What is the walnut ink that you ordered ?