Learning Copperplate...

[Oliwerko]

Yes, I really feel that progress picked up on its pace. Doing boring pages of arches really paid off.

 

Thanks for pointing out the short final m/n strokes. I'm really ~1mm above the guidline. Probably just afraid of making it too long. The straight strokes are not retouched and usually hit the line as they should.

 

I was also in doubt regarding shading, but I guess I will sort that out when writing more complex words. It's hard to figure out the thickness I want only with "minimum" in 1cm height.

 

I guess I'll move on to the next few letters and post again when the results are satisfactory.

 

PS: yeah, I see now about the edit button, thanks.

[Oliwerko]

Okay, I've kind of achieved pretty normally looking miniscule alphabet.

 

However, there's an issue I've experienced on the way. Out of the 5 Brause 66EFs I've had, I've broken 3. I don't think it's the thickness of the shaded strokes - they are not more than 1-1,5 mm thick at their thickest point.

 

After breaking the first two, I paid extra attention to be light-handed and not give the nib a hard time scratching the paper. The last one broke after one and a half page, which is super fast. The tip didn't catch on upstrokes however. I have no idea what this high breakage rate might be caused by. Any tips?

 

I tried the Zebra G as well, which (to my surprise) is able to do downstrokes as thick as the Brause.

 

Overall, working with 66EF felt quite superior to Zebra G. If only the Brauses didn't break so often. Now I have only 2 of them left

Edited December 13, 2011 by Oliwerko

[smk]

I find this strange. I did most of my practice while learning with the Brause 66EF and didn't wear it out. I don't have the Zebra G nibs but the Nikko ones I have are super smooth on upstrokes.

 

Where do the nibs break exactly, and in what direction e.g. does the tine fold up or down. Which holder are you using, and have you adjusted it so the nib is at a shallow angle to the paper? A picture of your hand holding the holder while writing might serve up a clue, is it possible to upload one?

 

Also, when you apply pressure on the downstroke, are the tines parallel to the stroke? I find that some holders (the Peerless/Ziller Oblique for me) don't change the angle of the nib enough for it to be parallel to the downstroke.

 

Salman

[Mickey]

I find this strange. I did most of my practice while learning with the Brause 66EF and didn't wear it out. I don't have the Zebra G nibs but the Nikko ones I have are super smooth on upstrokes.

 

Where do the nibs break exactly, and in what direction e.g. does the tine fold up or down. Which holder are you using, and have you adjusted it so the nib is at a shallow angle to the paper? A picture of your hand holding the holder while writing might serve up a clue, is it possible to upload one?

 

Also, when you apply pressure on the downstroke, are the tines parallel to the stroke? I find that some holders (the Peerless/Ziller Oblique for me) don't change the angle of the nib enough for it to be parallel to the downstroke.

 

Salman

 

My experience is similar to yours. I've used (use) both Nikko and Zebra G nibs and found them both to be very smooth on upstrokes, smoother than the 66EF, which I think is pretty smooth for a fairly sharp and flexible nib. The only nib I've ever had break had been eaten nearly through after long use with IG ink.

 

Just a guess, but I think the OP's flange may be presenting the nib to the paper at too steep an angle (as I suspect you do). Further, I think the G nib may 'stick' because it is strong enough to survive where an EF66 would collapse or break. It's also possible, again as your question suggests, that the OP's downstrokes are not in line with the tines, which could eventually misalign the tines and increase the likelihood of snags. Again, the G nibs are strong enough to survive the abuse and simply get scratchy rather than failing utterly.

[Oliwerko]

I've been thinking in the same terms. The tines are definitely parallel on downstrokes, at 1cm x-height I can't even imagine pulling the nib in an angle.

 

Now that you mention it, the problem probably lies in the angle being not shallow enough. One of the tines always just snapped upwards, as if the pressure was too much. As Mickey suggests, this does not happen with Gs probably just because they are much sturdier.

 

I'm using the Blackwell holder, so it's not really possible to alter any angles there. I'm comfortable with the slant, but maybe I need to adjust the paper/nib angle to a more shallow number.

 

I'll take a photo when I get to my nibs and stuff.

 

(Re. smoothness of Zebra Gs - I tried another nib, and it turned out that the one I was using for a long time now had something wrong with the tip, being scratchy as hell. The new one works well. Still, I like the Brause more)

[Mickey]

I've been thinking in the same terms. The tines are definitely parallel on downstrokes, at 1cm x-height I can't even imagine pulling the nib in an angle.

 

Now that you mention it, the problem probably lies in the angle being not shallow enough. One of the tines always just snapped upwards, as if the pressure was too much. As Mickey suggests, this does not happen with Gs probably just because they are much sturdier.

 

I'm using the Blackwell holder, so it's not really possible to alter any angles there. I'm comfortable with the slant, but maybe I need to adjust the paper/nib angle to a more shallow number.

 

I'll take a photo when I get to my nibs and stuff.

 

(Re. smoothness of Zebra Gs - I tried another nib, and it turned out that the one I was using for a long time now had something wrong with the tip, being scratchy as hell. The new one works well. Still, I like the Brause more)

 

I have a Blackwell (it's my 2nd choice holder), too. There are a couple of things that may help you. First, don't over tighten the fixture. Doing so distorts the nib in ways that can cause scratchiness. Make it just tight enough to hold the nib, but no tighter. Make sure the nib sits far enough forward. The angle of attack lowers the farther the point is from your grip. Move your grip back a tiny bit for the same reason. Roll your hand (and regrip) slightly anti-clockwise, This will also flattens the attack angle, but still try to keep the last two fingernails on the page. (My palm is essentially parallel to the page.) Experiment!

Edited December 13, 2011 by Mickey

[Oliwerko]

Thanks for tips, I'll try it today.

 

Here are the photos I promised (with an uninked G for better demostration).

 

This is how I normally hold the holder: http://www66.zippyshare.com/v/35618457/file.html

Nib closeup: http://www66.zippyshare.com/v/67402131/file.html

This is how the nib looks like when flexed for 8mm x-height shade: http://www66.zippyshare.com/v/93396705/file.html

And this is the posture I guess I should be using to make the angle of attack less steep. Correct? http://www66.zippyshare.com/v/72613571/file.html

Edited December 14, 2011 by Oliwerko

[smk]

Oliwerko, this looks pretty normal to me, lets see if Mickey, or someone else, can spot something.

 

My nib angle isn't as shallow as the one you show in the last picture, its pretty close to what you show in the other pictures. I am at a loss in figuring this one out. The only remaining possibility I can think of is an application of pressure on the upstroke which you have already addressed.

 

The paper looks smooth enough so I don't think snagging on the upstroke is an issue.

 

Maybe you can take a close look at Ken's videos on youtube and see if you can spot something you are doing differently.

 

I'll chime in if I can think of anything.

 

Salman

[Hex]

This will also flattens the attack angle, but still try to keep the last two fingernails on the page. (My palm is essentially parallel to the page.) Experiment!

 

WOW, did you really mean parallel ?? My hand is closer to perpendicular, pretty much resting on the meaty part that extends from my little finger. I just tried writing with a regular pen while holding it near parallel and that would be really extreme for me.

 

Could you perhaps take a picture of your hand holding the pen ?

 

Thanks

[smk]

... the G nibs are strong enough to survive the abuse and simply get scratchy rather than failing utterly.

 

Good point about the relative strengths of the nibs.

 

I haven't broken a nib yet but the only time I've come close is on unexpected snags on the upstroke when I'm using comparatively rough paper.

 

Salman

[Oliwerko]

I'll try the Brause again with different paper. The problem cannot be the ink, and when my posture is right (and I sure avoid scratching too hard on upstrokes), maybe the paper was not smooth enough.

 

Strange thing is that very shortly after beginning to use a fresh G nib, I can feel the scratchiness of the tip grows (after a page or two). Is this normal? Maybe I'm expecting too much and am too heavy handed, I surely don't blame my equipment

 

Also, is it OK to do some hairlines sideways? I guess it's necessary, but I want to be sure. I.e. top of the majuscule "T". I find doing for example the descender hairlines of miniscule "f" sideways much easier. With very little pressure, that is.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Oliwerko

[Mickey]

Here's an exercise which might answer a lot of questions. Make alternating push and pull strokes, exactly in line with the slit, trying to keep the down strokes just as fine as the up strokes. When they match, you will know how much nib pressure is correct. Try the same thing with curved and circular strokes. Yes, being able to make hairlines in all directions is a desirable skill.

 

I've noticed that all my nibs become less smooth after a few pages, particularly if I'm making a lot of shades. The pressing does subtly misalign the tines, especially curved shades, which are mostly on the right side of the letters (twisting the tine is one direction more than the other). Eventually, one tine will be slightly higher than the other, making the lines fatter and the nib scratchier. (Madarasz supposedly used his most heavily worn nibs for the most dramatic shades, saving the new nibs for the finest hairlines.) My nibs stay smooth longest when I write monoline. I guess the answer is don't over stress the nib. If you want huge shades, use a very flexible nib (like the EF66), don't over bend a stiffer nib (like a G).

 

Some of the scratchiness may also be ink build up, so clean the nib periodically.

[Oliwerko]

That explains a lot, thanks. I probably overstressed the Gs when using them for 8mm x-height. So the fact that they physically can do wide shades doesn't mean they can be used for that for a long time... After a while, the Gs get catchy on upstrokes, and when going from down- to upstroke (i.e. letters like "m" or "u"), they usually catch a paper fiber between the tines, spreading the ink all over the place.

 

I was experimenting with thin strokes when training some majuscules, and I found out that when I'm using a fresh nib, I can do hairlines in various directions with no problems, and they look pretty nice and balanced. So if I'm doing something wrong, it isn't too much pressure or anything similar.

 

My guess on the Brauses is that maybe when doing long downstrokes like "f", I didn't move the whole hand, and so the angle of attack was too steep towards the end of the stroke.

 

So I'll try again with a smooth Sennelier Calligraphy paper and a fresh 66EF, and see how it works. I'll pay attention not to overstress the nib on side strokes and to keep the angle of attack uniform.

 

Btw, this is what I was able to do in 8mm with the Zebra G when the tip was still not scratchy. After this page, I couldn't really make the hairlines this good anymore. http://www43.zippyshare.com/v/29363394/file.html

 

Edit: re. cleaning - I clean my nibs after each writing session under warm water with a toothbrush. I guess cleaning them after writing can't hurt them...

Edited December 14, 2011 by Oliwerko

[fuchsiaprincess]

That explains a lot, thanks. I probably overstressed the Gs when using them for 8mm x-height. So the fact that they physically can do wide shades doesn't mean they can be used for that for a long time... After a while, the Gs get catchy on upstrokes, and when going from down- to upstroke (i.e. letters like "m" or "u"), they usually catch a paper fiber between the tines, spreading the ink all over the place.

 

I was experimenting with thin strokes when training some majuscules, and I found out that when I'm using a fresh nib, I can do hairlines in various directions with no problems, and they look pretty nice and balanced. So if I'm doing something wrong, it isn't too much pressure or anything similar.

 

My guess on the Brauses is that maybe when doing long downstrokes like "f", I didn't move the whole hand, and so the angle of attack was too steep towards the end of the stroke.

 

So I'll try again with a smooth Sennelier Calligraphy paper and a fresh 66EF, and see how it works. I'll pay attention not to overstress the nib on side strokes and to keep the angle of attack uniform.

 

Btw, this is what I was able to do in 8mm with the Zebra G when the tip was still not scratchy. After this page, I couldn't really make the hairlines this good anymore. http://www43.zippyshare.com/v/29363394/file.html

 

Edit: re. cleaning - I clean my nibs after each writing session under warm water with a toothbrush. I guess cleaning them after writing can't hurt them...

 

It is imperative that you clean the nibs after use. Remember to dry them too. This slows down the degradation of the nibs (eg. rusting).

 

Regards,

Soki

[fuchsiaprincess]

Here's my effort from lat night. I used a Brause EF 66 nib, and the paper is Daley and Rowney 'Cartridge'.

 

http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y331/fuchsiaprincess/Suceed.jpg

[Oliwerko]

Yes, I do thoroughly clean and dry the nibs. I would hate to have them inky from one session to another anyway.

 

What a fluent script, fuchsiaprincess. Once the Brauses stop breaking, I'm looking forward to writing actually meaningful pieces of text too

 

Now, back to figuring out what I'm doing wrong.

[Hex]

 

Btw, this is what I was able to do in 8mm with the Zebra G when the tip was still not scratchy. After this page, I couldn't really make the hairlines this good anymore. http://www43.zippyshare.com/v/29363394/file.html

 

 

I really like what you have done Oliwerko and if you don't mind, I am going to "borrow" your capital T and how it flows into the h.

Your hairlines are perfect.

Nice work. :clap1:

[Oliwerko]

Thanks for kind words! I didn't really think of any particular way how to join the T with the h, it just turned out like this. Feel free to borrow

 

A fresh 66EF survived today's writing session of about two pages in 1cm x-height, and I was extra careful when cleaning. We'll see tomorrow. What do you think about the shading? Is it appropriate (both visually, and physically appropriate for not breaking the nib?) for this x-heigt?:

 

http://www64.zippyshare.com/v/7279788/file.html

 

(ignore the text itself, I am aware of the numerous mistakes and inconsistencies, it was the end of the session and my hand was shaky)

Edited December 15, 2011 by Oliwerko

[smk]

The shading looks fine to me. The nib is certainly capable of producing thicker shades without undue stress. The hairlines look good too - nice and smooth.

 

There is a bit of variation in the 'lift' of your hairlines e.g. compare the hairlines coming out of the 'a' and the 'n' in 'cranes'. The 'a' hairline lifts up much quicker than the exit hairline of 'n'. The sharper lift in 'a' is closer to ideal. I try to make my exit hairlines like the bottom right of an 'o' - don't know if that's what its supposed to be but it keeps me consistent.

 

In some cases you'll need to make it rise up even quicker. Even though the hairline rises up properly after the 'a' in 'cranes' you'll notice that the spacing between it and the next letter 'n' is a bit too wide. This combination will benefit from even steeper hairlines that bring the two letters together. I suspect you have made the hairline after the 'n' shallower in an attempt to keep the spacing regular resulting in a wider than ideal spacing between 'n' and 'e'.

 

The spacing between 'e' and 'a' in 'great' is good except the hairline should rise a bit more to join the shade of the 'a' halfway up.

 

I really like your practice sheets. I'm going to go practice my exit hairlines now :-)

 

Salman

[smk]

Here's my effort from lat night. I used a Brause EF 66 nib, and the paper is Daley and Rowney 'Cartridge'.

 

Nicely done Soki.

 

S.