Learning Copperplate...

[gibsona9]

Salman,

 

Thanks for the reply! Some good pointers there.

 

It's been a busy week, so no chance to do any lettering practice. But, my wife and I are going up to the mountains this weekend to celebrate our anniversary, so I should have some free time to get the ole pen and paper out.

 

This has been a very inspiring thread for me! The positive vibe from all the copperplate "students" is very encouraging.

 

Brian

Edited October 18, 2011 by gibsona9

[Hex]

Is this to be expected, or am I doing something wrong (most likely ), or is it the paper, or how much ink is on my pen ?

 

I have a problem when I have to cross a broad stroke with a thin stroke.

Like crossing the "t", or the upstroke of an "f", or an "x" sometimes.

Where the thin line crosses the thick, it smears, or picks up soggy paper or something like that. That little bit of paper stuck to the nib makes the line considerably wider.

For an "x", if the broad stroke on the right part, touches the thin on the left, it's a mess.

For crossing a "t" I stop just before it crosses, position the nib on the other side and continue.

 

Any and all clues will be much appreciated.

[gibsona9]

Hex, sounds like your thick (shaded) lines might be very wet (lots of ink), so it is impossible to drag a fine line through it without getting some bleed from the shade into the hairline? Seems I recall watching one of the Vitolo videos on Iampeth, and recall him doing what you said; instead of doing one stroke through the wet shaded stroke, make it two strokes. For example, left side of the t, then right side of the t. Any thoughts from the experts?

 

In other cool news, I have gotten three books in the mail this week (two of them thanks to my wonderful wife as a surprise!):

1. The Universal Penman, by our ole buddy Bickham!
2. Mastering Copperplate Calligraphy, Eleanor Winters
3. An Elegant Hand, William E. Henning

I love the Winters book, it has so many important little details that are already helping me improve. But for pure eye candy, the UP book and the Elegant Hand book are just phenomenal. Very inspiring! I hope to get the some dip nibs out this weekend and try some practice sheets.

 

Happy Copperplating!

 

Brian

[fuchsiaprincess]

Salman,

 

Thanks for the reply! Some good pointers there.

 

It's been a busy week, so no chance to do any lettering practice. But, my wife and I are going up to the mountains this weekend to celebrate our anniversary, so I should have some free time to get the ole pen and paper out.

 

This has been a very inspiring thread for me! The positive vibe from all the copperplate "students" is very encouraging.

 

Brian

 

Brian,

 

You're supposed to be on a romantic weekend away with your wife to celebrate your anniversary. I don't think she would appreciate you whipping out the pen and paper, instead of spending that time with her

 

Regards,

Soki

[gibsona9]

Great point, Soki!!! ha! Sometimes we males have trouble remembering these things!

 

The anniversary weekend in the mountains (last weekend) actually went very well. I am blessed to have an awesome wife who is very supportive of my (many) hobbies. She is a writer, so she appreciates the "quiet time" when I am doing calligraphy!

 

I'm going to work on a "love letter" for her, written in copperplate on ivory stationery...I think she'll like it.

 

Brian

[fuchsiaprincess]

Great point, Soki!!! ha! Sometimes we males have trouble remembering these things!

 

The anniversary weekend in the mountains (last weekend) actually went very well. I am blessed to have an awesome wife who is very supportive of my (many) hobbies. She is a writer, so she appreciates the "quiet time" when I am doing calligraphy!

 

I'm going to work on a "love letter" for her, written in copperplate on ivory stationery...I think she'll like it.

 

Brian

 

Very glad to hear that you had a fantastic time in the mountains, and that your wife is so understanding and supportive. The love letter is a brilliant idea!

 

Regards,

Soki

[gibsona9]

OK, I have been reading the Eleanor Winters book ("Mastering Copperplate Calligraphy", and it is really wonderful. In particular, I like how she describes each letter shape in great detail (shading, angle, width, etc) -- it has really helped me see some subtle yet critical mistakes I was making.

 

Here's my first practice session using the Winters book. It includes the 8 basic strokes used for miniscule letters, as well as the set of "simplest" lowercase letters. If I have time today, I'm going to draw guidelines on another page, and maybe complete the rest of the miniscule letters...

 

Materials used: Higgins Eternal black (yay, found some at local Michael's store!), 11x14 Bristol "regular" paper (should have used "smooth", but didn't have any in 11x14), Esterbrook 546 nib (its five-forty-something, can't see the last digit because the nib shaft is badly rusted), straight pen holder (I have an oblique holder on order, so this is all I have to use right now).

 

Overall, I had a lot of fun doing this! The Higgins Eternal really seemed to work well with the dip nib...for a long time, I have shyed away from dip nibs because I couldn't get the ink flow issues resolved. I can't wait to get some true Copperplate nibs (have ordered some), as well as the oblique holder...

 

In terms of critique:

- I had trouble getting the full-height, full-pressure strokes to be even.

- I think I tended to "over-shade", i.e. too much shade width for the scale height I am working with.

- I need to work on improving the beginnings of the downstrokes, so that the tops of the letters t, d, i, etc. are squared off and not rounded.

- I felt better about my letter widths, although some seem a bit wide (the y's?)

- The 55 degree guidelines certainly helped to get the slant consistent, but even so, there is a temptation to let the mind wander and relax the slant...

 

Any critiques, comments, or suggestions would be most welcome!

 

Happy Copperplating,

Brian

 

Edited October 30, 2011 by gibsona9

[smk]

Brian - the practice sheet looks good. Working on the basic strokes makes such a difference.

 

The only comment I can make is about the last line of u's and y's. The connector from the first stroke to the second seems to join the latter too early. The hairline at the end of the shade should move up and join the second stroke half way up. I think this adds to the illusion of a wider letter too since there's empty space in the middle of the letter.

 

I can spot the same trend in the n's and m's where the hairline leaves the first stroke albeit to a lesser degree.

 

Longer strokes were a bit of an issue for me when learning Batarde. The trick I was shown was to place the pen at the beginning of the stroke (apply pressure for copperplate), then look at the spot where you want to end up and draw a line confidently down to that spot without looking at the nib (or changing pressure.) I have probably shared this before but it helped me so much I think its worth repeating.

 

Regards,

Salman

[gibsona9]

Salman,

 

Thanks for the great feedback!

 

Yes, one of the things I found challenging was getting the second stroke to properly "match up" to the first stroke on letters such as u, y, and even a and d. If you start the second stroke a bit too far to the left, then the hairline seems to join to low, as was the case on my u's and y's. If you start the second stroke too far to the right, then you risk either the hairline joining too high, or not joining at all!

 

For example, the third from last "d" I made, I started the downstroke too far over to the right, and the "d" looked like a circle and a line, that didn't touch each other! ha

 

Thanks for the tip on the long downstrokes. Sounds a bit like golf; look at the hole, and confidently & firmly putt into the hole! Its kind of a confidence game, I suppose.

 

Anyhow, thanks so much for the feedback. (BTW, sorry the photo was so dark, I'll try and go back and fix the brightness...)

 

Brian

[fuchsiaprincess]

Well done, Brian! You're a natural at this :clap1:

 

In addition to what Salman has written, may I offer a slight critique? You are probably aware of it already, but the 'n' is a tad too wide. The width should be approximately the same as your practise loops in the second line. However, this will come with practise.

 

Regards,

Soki

[gibsona9]

Soki,

 

Yes, now that you mention it, it is clear that many of the n's seem too fat... I think it is going to take a while for me to get used to the spacing -- it seems a bit tougher than getting the letter strokes out.

 

Tomorrow night I hope to line a new sheet and finish the rest of the letters. And, hopefully things will improve when the goodies come in the mail (oblique holder and nibs!).

 

Brian

[gibsona9]

OK, I had some time tonight, so I finished off the lowercase letters...

 

I was really tired tonight, and had a tougher time concentrating, and therefore made more mistakes. I find then when I don't concentrate, I tend to relax the 55 deg slant. There are some pretty bad examples of that...(third h especially -- ack!!!) It really amazes me how quickly things go downhill when I stop thinking and just start writing.

 

Like the previous sheet, this was done without an oblique penholder. I noticed that on the long shaded strokes (f, l, g, j, etc), the ink tended to feather on the right side. This should be resolved with the proper penholder, since the nib will be aligned with the direction of the slant.

 

One other thing I noticed is that the shade is too broad for the height in many cases. Example -- last couple f's. I need to resist the urge to flex that nib out fully!

 

Oh well, fellow penmen (penpeople?), goodnight!

 

Edited November 1, 2011 by gibsona9

[fuchsiaprincess]

Hi Brian,

 

That is beautifully written, especially using a straight nib holder. Don't be too hard on yourself. You will get better with practise. I really like your 'v'.

 

Regards,

Soki

[caliken]

The only comment I can make is about the last line of u's and y's. The connector from the first stroke to the second seems to join the latter too early. The hairline at the end of the shade should move up and join the second stroke half way up. I think this adds to the illusion of a wider letter too since there's empty space in the middle of the letter.

I can spot the same trend in the n's and m's where the hairline leaves the first stroke albeit to a lesser degree.

Salman

You're making great progress Brian, and your lettering already has a nice balanced, flow to it.

 

Salman's perceptive comments are correct, in my view.

 

Eleanor Winter's book "Mastering Copperplate" whilst containing much valuable information, shows a personal interpretation of the English Roundhand "Copperplate" hand. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but it can lead to a conflict of learning when studied alongside "The Universal Penman" - the Copperplate 'bible'.

 

Ms Winter tends to write exactly as described by Salman with ligature hairlines joining low and internal hairlines in the letters n & m for example, leaving the first stroke rather high. IMO this leads to chunky lettering which is a long way from the elegant flow of classic Copperplate.

 

The Copperplate (Engrosser's) lessons by C P Zaner on the IAMPETH site show how it can be done.

 

Ken

Edited November 1, 2011 by caliken

[Hex]

Brian, for being a beginner, you are really good at this.

I am amazed at how well you write, given that you have just started.

[smk]

If you start the second stroke a bit too far to the left, then the hairline seems to join to low, as was the case on my u's and y's. If you start the second stroke too far to the right, then you risk either the hairline joining too high, or not joining at all!

 

 

Brian, I suspect it has more to do with the hairline stroke exiting at a shallow angle after the first shade. This is apparent in the 'y's where the exit hairline exits at a flatter angle compared to the entry hairline before the shade.

 

If you look at the very first 'y' you'll see this clearly. The entry hairline is at the proper angle IMO. Just to test it out, place this sheet of paper upside down and make a 'u' with the, now upside down, first stroke of the 'y' and see if the spacing works out any better.

 

BTW I must repeat that I am in awe of your ability to write so well with a straight holder. I could not even get started until I got my hands on an oblique holder.

 

Regards,

Salman

 

ps-I'm referring to post No 667 and not the last sheet uploaded.

Edited November 1, 2011 by smk

[gibsona9]

Folks,

 

Thanks for the encouragement and kind comments!

 

Ken, I compared the miniscules in the Winters book to those in the Universal Penman book, and I think I know exactly what you are talking about. In the Winters book, she instructs to make the exit strokes rounded, and ending up parallel to the shaded stroke. Its almost like a perfect "u" shape, but on a 55 degree slant. See my last line, where I wrote the entire alphabet (unjoined), and look at the exit strokes of the l, m, and n. They end up parallel to the 55 degree slant, but in the Bickham examples they flatten out a bit before joining the next letter.

 

Last night I ordered a lot of 10 Esterbrook 357 nibs, which I have heard are very good for Copperplate. What do you all recommend for getting the manufacturing chemicals off the new nib: the quick flame method, the scrubbing with soap and water method, or the putting it in your mouth until you keel over from poisoning approach? :ltcapd:

Also, I really need to order an oblique penholder. Is there a recommended one, or are they all about the same? I saw some on John Neal that looked nice, but don't really know what the differences are.

 

Thanks for any help you can provide,

Brian

[Mickey]

When I'm too lazy to go get the Windex, I'll stick a nib in my mouth to remove the oil, but I don't recommend it.

 

As for holders, I like the two Blackwell holders and have one of each. I like the straight holder, whereas my wife likes the one with the hourglass shaped grip. I also like the Paper & Ink Arts Hourglass Adjustable.

 

BTW, you've made a very impressive start.

[fuchsiaprincess]

Hi Brian,

 

I have a few oblique nib holders; my favorite is the hourglass one from John Neal. It is a matter of personal preference, and you won't know until you try them out. If you would like, PM me your address and I'll send you a couple that aren't in use so that you can try before you buy.

 

With regards to the nib, I prefer the quick flame method. Never quite likedthe taste of metal and oils.

 

Regards,

Soki

[caliken]

When I'm too lazy to go get the Windex, I'll stick a nib in my mouth to remove the oil, but I don't recommend it.

 

I am equally lazy and do the same, but I do recommend it!......works every time.

 

Ken