Learning Copperplate...

[smk]

 

Salman,

 

You've reminded me that I had flow problems with my Brause Rose nibs, until I added Gum Arabic. Now the ink flows perfectly and they are among my favourite nibs.

 

 

This is great to know.

 

I have been meaning to give it a try. Now that I know it works I'll go ahead without reservations. Did the ink characteristics change with other nibs when you added Gum Arabic to it?

 

Salman

[caliken]

I have been meaning to give it a try. Now that I know it works I'll go ahead without reservations. Did the ink characteristics change with other nibs when you added Gum Arabic to it?

Salman,

 

Dick Jackson advocated adding ten to twelve drops to a new bottle of Higgins Eternal as a matter of course.

 

It does seem to help the ink flow in general. I'm using it at the moment with a Gillott 404 with no problems. Also, it doesn't seem to diminish the intensity of the black ink.

 

Ken

Edited October 4, 2011 by caliken

[Hex]

Here is a practice sheet I did yesterday after watching Ken's Brause video.

The inky digits are getting bothersome.

[Ghost Plane]

What are you doing to get so much ink on your fingers?

[Hex]

What are you doing to get so much ink on your fingers?

I wish I knew. Yesterday, I would periodically check my fingers and they were fine. A bit later I looked again and they looked like that. I am going to try a different nib holder today.

[Hex]

What are you doing to get so much ink on your fingers?

I wish I knew. Yesterday, I would periodically check my fingers and they were fine. A bit later I looked again and they looked like that. I am going to try a different nib holder today.

I figured out the inky fingers. I was dipping my pen too deeply into the ink and though I wiped some off, a lot would accumulate and run down the holder onto mostly my thumb. 2 days in a row now with moderately clean fingers.

[Mickey]

This will be hard to describe, but the relationship of the nib end to the paper seems not quite as straight-on in your hand as it is mine and you were still able to get a nice broad line. It looks a bit like you are making the broad lines, partially with the edge of the nib.

 

I wouldn't think to speak for Ken, but I hold the pen similarly, so I'll tell you what I do. When I want to shade a line, I slightly rotate my hand clockwise, which applies pressure to the nib while pulling the slit in line with the slant angle. I'm not sure if this is quite orthodox, but I have seen videos of others doing much the same thing. I feel as if I'm slightly pulling the pad at the base of my thumb toward my navel.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Mickey

[Hex]

This will be hard to describe, but the relationship of the nib end to the paper seems not quite as straight-on in your hand as it is mine and you were still able to get a nice broad line. It looks a bit like you are making the broad lines, partially with the edge of the nib.

 

I wouldn't think to speak for Ken, but I hold the pen similarly, so I'll tell you what I do. When I want to shade a line, I slightly rotate my hand clockwise, which applies pressure to the nib while pulling the slit in line with the slant angle. I'm not sure if this is quite orthodox, but I have seen videos of others doing much the same thing. I feel as if I'm slightly pulling the pad at the base of my thumb toward my navel.

That's interesting Mickey. I will give that a try today.

[Mickey]

This will be hard to describe, but the relationship of the nib end to the paper seems not quite as straight-on in your hand as it is mine and you were still able to get a nice broad line. It looks a bit like you are making the broad lines, partially with the edge of the nib.

 

I wouldn't think to speak for Ken, but I hold the pen similarly, so I'll tell you what I do. When I want to shade a line, I slightly rotate my hand clockwise, which applies pressure to the nib while pulling the slit in line with the slant angle. I'm not sure if this is quite orthodox, but I have seen videos of others doing much the same thing. I feel as if I'm slightly pulling the pad at the base of my thumb toward my navel.

That's interesting Mickey. I will give that a try today.

 

Certainly, give it try, but I should have mentioned that what I'm practicing now is Spencerian, which, while related to Copperplate, has some very different characteristics, chief among them that shaded lines are much rarer and often more extreme, and that most down strokes are hairlines. Here's an example of absolutely gorgeous Spencerian by possibly the greatest penman of the last century, Louis Madarasz.

 

 

http://www.iampeth.c...darasz%2001.jpg

 

Added: one of the virtues (for me) of Spencerian is that I can write monoline Spencerian (business hand) at speed, only slow down for ornamental penmanship, and use the same hardware for both (Blackwell holder with a Leonhardt Principal or Hunt 22B nib).

Edited October 6, 2011 by Mickey

[sniper910]

Ken, I recently got A couple of brause rose nibs from www.paperinkarts.com. Is this a different nib from the one in your video?

[caliken]

Ken, I recently got A couple of brause rose nibs from www.paperinkarts.com. Is this a different nib from the one in your video?

I bought my Brause Rose nibs from www.paperinkarts.com so they'll probably be the same nibs as the ones you have. They show the rose symbol and the wording "Brause & Co no.76 Iserlohn".

 

Ken

Edited October 11, 2011 by caliken

[Hex]

One of the exercises I am doing is this:

 

Take a letter from the left group and write it with every letter from the right group.

 

Left:

a,c,d,e,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,p,q,t,u,x,y,z

 

Right:

b,e,f,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,p,r,s,t,u,v,w,x,y,z

 

It's a fun exercise and not so boring.

However when I got to doing the "i" from the left, there were 3 combinations that I had a hard time telling from certain single letters.

If it weren't for the "dot" above the i, it would be very confusing.

 

ii = U

iu = W

ij = Y

 

Just an observation on my part and I guess I will have to avoid words that have those combinations. :roflmho:

 

They will probably get better as my skills improve.

[sniper910]

Thanks Ken, I'll be giving those nibs a try soon.

Salman, the pelikan ink you order, does it say it's specific for dip pens? I've been looking on amazon and seen pelikan ink but it says it's for fountain pens. I just want to mKe sure i get the right one. Thanks

[Bierce]

 

Flourishing is almost therapeutic, although my lettering practice is suffering because of it. I used a 101 for the flourish above. Tip: if you're throwing your pens away, clean them really well, and save them somewhere where they won't rust too badly... if you're going to start flourishing, you can still get a lot of use out of them for practicing, as flourishing really beats on pens, but the ones that aren't cutting it for text can still give a lot of flourish work.

 

If anyone can tell me how the tiny little filler flourishes immediately surrounding the header lettering are done in the Universal Penman idiom, I'd be most obliged. I've tried it whole arm (almost impossible for me to control), finger /hand (doesn't look right) and trying smaller pens (didn't work for me, but tried it because it sure looks like the engraver switched to a smaller burin). I know I'm trying to emulate engravings, which may very well be impossible, but I'd like to know one way or another if it's possible...I think they add immensely to the overall look, but I sure haven't figured it out, and guess I'd just like to hear that it's impossible so I can move on to other things.:roflmho:

Edited October 14, 2011 by Bierce

[gibsona9]

Hi folks, hope I'm not interrupting the discussion...

 

I've been away from FPN for a while, and since coming back around have been quite inspired by this thread! I am a flex pen fan, a fan of fine penmanship, and a "beginner learner" of the Copperplate hand. Although I realize that proper Copperplate requires proper equipment (offset nib holder, dip nibs, etc), I am intrigued by trying to get a Copperplate effect using flex-nib FPs (as CaliKen discussed earlier).

 

So, today I downloaded the 6mm Copperplate lined practice sheet PDF, and tried writing some random phrases during lunch break, to establish a "baseline" of my writing now. Hopefully, after some more disciplined time working on letter form exercises (o-based letters, descenders, i/m/n/u, etc) I will be able to see some (needed) improvement.

 

Thanks to you guys (my Copperplate heros, ha!), I am becoming a lot more critical of my own letter shapes, and have realized some areas for improvement. In this sample from today (using a Namiki Falcon), I noticed a few "opportunities":

- first and foremost, I need to get some decent paper...the bleed on this copier paper was really horrible, made for really rough edges...

- consistent slope: even though I was using the lined practice sheet, I tended to want to relax the slant frequently!

- the tops of my "n"s tend to be pointed instead of rounded

- capital letters need a lot of practice...I have trouble "seeing" them in my head, and don't have a feel for them.

- I tend to rush my letters, and when rushing I fail to think about the letter shape, and end up with "non-standard" shapes! Ack!

- Need to work on inter-letter spacing.

- Should my ascenders (h, l, b, k, etc) be higher than twice the miniscule height?

 

Anyhow, this is a starting point. Based on recommendations from this thread, I intend to get the Eleanor Winters book, "Mastering Copperplate", and really study the letter forms. I think that (and a bunch of disciplined practice sessions like others here have embarked on) will really help. Thanks for the inspiration, fellow aspiring penmen (and women)!

[caliken]

Based on recommendations from this thread, I intend to get the Eleanor Winters book, "Mastering Copperplate", and really study the letter forms. I think that (and a bunch of disciplined practice sessions like others here have embarked on) will really help. Thanks for the inspiration, fellow aspiring penmen (and women)!

If you go to www.IAMPETH.com, click on "lessons" and open "Copperplate/Engravers script" you will find several excellent sources for Copperplate for download and study. My favourites are by C P Zaner, Josheph Galterio and Charlton Howe as they come closest to the ideal forms in "The Universal Penman" IMO. Probably the examples by C P Zaner are the most accurate, historically.

 

If you are serious about studying Copperplate, acquiring a copy of "The Universal Penman" is essential.

 

I strongly recommend starting with an oblique holder and a flexible nib such as the Gillott 303 with Higgins Eternal ink. Copperplate is much easier with a flexible dip nib and you can combine this practice with the convenience and portability of the fountain pen, when on the move.

 

BTW you've made a great start.

 

Ken

[caliken]

If anyone can tell me how the tiny little filler flourishes immediately surrounding the header lettering are done in the Universal Penman idiom, I'd be most obliged. I've tried it whole arm (almost impossible for me to control), finger /hand (doesn't look right) and trying smaller pens (didn't work for me, but tried it because it sure looks like the engraver switched to a smaller burin). I know I'm trying to emulate engravings, which may very well be impossible, but I'd like to know one way or another if it's possible...I think they add immensely to the overall look, but I sure haven't figured it out, and guess I'd just like to hear that it's impossible so I can move on to other things.

I don't know if this is the answer you're looking for, but I use Gillott Crow Quill nibs for very small flourishing elements, using fingers only. As you say, we're attempting to emulate the burin so it's largely a case of trial and error. You're producing nice, controlled flourishing, BTW.

 

Ken

[Bierce]

Thanks Ken. I've tried the CQ and not had a whole lot of luck. The difference in appearance is too obvious, but it may very well be my touch needs to be adjusted. I had a very minor epiphany a couple days back and tried using a ball tipped dip pen (specifically a Perry Indent 2301 because I just happened to have it on hand) and discovered, that while not the perfect solution, the roundness of the ball smooths out the imperfections in the tiny lines done with the finger approach. Now I need to find the right size ball, as a temporary workaround to this problem.

 

Of course, this approach renders thick/thin out of the question, as we can see that many of those tiny lines still have them. As you said, trial and error, so I'll have to keep working at it.

 

Why, again, do we put ourselves through this?

 

As this thread is supposed to be learning CPlate, I'll turn it back over to text. I just injected this as it is a huge aspect of the UnivP. Maybe we need a dedicated flourishing thread. I'm just not bold enough with my newbie post count to start one.

 

ETA: @Mickey below: thanks. I'll definitely give that a look-see next time I'm at the library. Unfortunately I'm one of fourteen or so people left on the planet still on dialup (stop laughing), so I wait til my weekly trip there to download the gigabytes of stuff I've been wanting to check out. I do know for a fact that speed is absolutely a factor in the larger flourishes, that's for sure. Too fast you lose control, too slow you get unsteady, unsure lines. When you're in the pocket, you know it, and you can actually feel your upper arm muscles developing control as you pursue the art. I imagine it's the same for the teensy stuff.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Bierce

[Mickey]

Thanks Ken. I've tried the CQ and not had a whole lot of luck. The difference in appearance is too obvious, but it may very well be my touch needs to be adjusted.

 

The answer may be speed, rather than touch or nib. Check out the video "Del Tysdal demonstrates OP Technique" on

 

http://www.iampeth.com/videos.php

 

I don't know if this will help, but I thought it was worth pointing you at it. The video "John DiCollibus: Beyond Words Studio" might also be worth a perusal.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Mickey

[smk]

Salman, the pelikan ink you order, does it say it's specific for dip pens? I've been looking on amazon and seen pelikan ink but it says it's for fountain pens. I just want to mKe sure i get the right one. Thanks

 

Hi Sniper - sorry it took this long to answer. The only Pelikan ink I have used is for fountain pens. It works well on papers that don't absorb ink quickly but is nowhere nearly as good Higgins Eternal for dip pen work.

 

Hi folks, hope I'm not interrupting the discussion...

 

 

Thanks to you guys (my Copperplate heros, ha!), I am becoming a lot more critical of my own letter shapes, and have realized some areas for improvement. In this sample from today (using a Namiki Falcon), I noticed a few "opportunities":

- first and foremost, I need to get some decent paper...the bleed on this copier paper was really horrible, made for really rough edges...

- consistent slope: even though I was using the lined practice sheet, I tended to want to relax the slant frequently!

- the tops of my "n"s tend to be pointed instead of rounded

- capital letters need a lot of practice...I have trouble "seeing" them in my head, and don't have a feel for them.

- I tend to rush my letters, and when rushing I fail to think about the letter shape, and end up with "non-standard" shapes! Ack!

- Need to work on inter-letter spacing.

- Should my ascenders (h, l, b, k, etc) be higher than twice the miniscule height?

 

Anyhow, this is a starting point. Based on recommendations from this thread, I intend to get the Eleanor Winters book, "Mastering Copperplate", and really study the letter forms. I think that (and a bunch of disciplined practice sessions like others here have embarked on) will really help. Thanks for the inspiration, fellow aspiring penmen (and women)!

 

 

Welcome to the thread gibsona9. You are off to a fantastic start. I'm eagerly looking forward to your next upload.

 

I think Ken has already answered the question on the book. I'll just make a couple of comments based on your notes.

 

* It takes a while to get used to the slant. This was something I struggled with in the beginning but I'm surprised to find myself automatically adjusting the paper and write at the correct angle without any slant guidelines now. It'll come to you, just a matter of practice.

 

* Regarding the pointed tops of the 'n's - don't worry about it. Concentrate on the basic drills Ken mentioned on the first page of this thread and you'll be well on your way to learning the miniscules. Inter-letter spacing and rhythm/speed will develop naturally.

 

* Work on the miniscules first. Majuscules can come later and are a lot of fun to learn in their own way.

 

* The accepted ratio of ascender:x-height:descender is 3:2:3 but I have seen numerous examples using 2:1:2 and they look really good. I try to stick with the 3:2:3 ratio but have done some exercises at the 2:1:2 size as well. It doesn't make much difference to the learning process IMO.

 

Your method of doing exercises and then analyzing your technique and results is inspiring. A similar approach worked for me and kept me on target through the learning process.

 

Best of luck,

Salman