Learning Copperplate...

[ihtzazqamar]

Excellent ...princess. Lovely hand. I will keep and use this sample when I am in a mood to write a page.

 

regards

Ihtzaz

[smk]

Sometimes I get confused regarding top and bottom of letters. This specially happens with t, d, f, and p. I have written these letters on a graph paper.

 

Top of b, f, h, k, l, is 2.5 x above the base line where ' x ' is the 'x' height

 

top of d is 2 x above the base line

 

I missed t, but top of t and p is 1.25 x above base line

 

bottom of g, j, y, z is 1.5 x below base line

 

bottom of f, p and q is 1 x below base line

 

Are the above dimensions correct OR acceptable for copperplate

 

Regards

Ihtzaz

 

 

 

The top of the d,t and p are (edit:) a little less than 2x above the baseline to use your terminology. Usually its referred to a 1 x-height above the waist like (the waist line is the top of the x-height). This is different than what you have listed.

 

The widely accepted standard for Copperplate is a ratio of 3:2:3 for the ascenders, x-height and descenders. This is how you've done it in your example above. So for a 4mm x-height, the ascenders will be 6mm above the waist line (or 10 mm above the base line). The descenders will go 6mm below the baseline.

 

So for the 4mm x-height, the top of the 'd','t' and 'p' will be (edit:) a little less than 4mm (say about 3mm) above the waist line (or 7mm above the base line) and the bottom of 'f' and 'p' will be 4mm below the base line. All other ascenders and descenders will reach the full height and depth of 6mm above waist line (10 mm above base) and 6mm below the base line.

 

There are other standards/preferences too. For example Dr. Vitolo in his video series on the Engraver's script uses longer ascenders and descenders which also produces very nice results.

 

BTW - the example you provided above is done very nicely.

 

Salman

 

Edit: Edited to make correction to the height of the d,t and p ascenders.

Edited September 11, 2011 by smk

[smk]

Well, I've finally managed to do some writing after a long hiatus. I used paper from a Manuscript Parchment pad, and the nib I used was the Brause EF 66. The ink was Higgins Sepia. Unfortunately, the paper (which wasn't terribly well-behaved to start with) started to feather quite badly, as the writing progressed. I checked to make sure the tines were aligned, cleaned the nib, etc. but the problem persisted. Anyhow, here is my effort :

 

 

Very nice Soki. Its good to see you're keeping up with the practice. I need to brush it up a bit too - I promised some scans of exercises a while back but haven't gotten around to it. Will make it a point to do some this week.

 

Salman

[fuchsiaprincess]

Well, I've finally managed to do some writing after a long hiatus. I used paper from a Manuscript Parchment pad, and the nib I used was the Brause EF 66. The ink was Higgins Sepia. Unfortunately, the paper (which wasn't terribly well-behaved to start with) started to feather quite badly, as the writing progressed. I checked to make sure the tines were aligned, cleaned the nib, etc. but the problem persisted. Anyhow, here is my effort :

 

 

Very nice Soki. Its good to see you're keeping up with the practice. I need to brush it up a bit too - I promised some scans of exercises a while back but haven't gotten around to it. Will make it a point to do some this week.

 

Salman

 

Thank you very much, Salman! My downstrokes are still quite thick. Would like to be more light-handed Oh well, more practise is required....

 

Warm regards,

Soki

[ihtzazqamar]

Sometimes I get confused regarding top and bottom of letters. This specially happens with t, d, f, and p. I have written these letters on a graph paper.

 

Top of b, f, h, k, l, is 2.5 x above the base line where ' x ' is the 'x' height

 

top of d is 2 x above the base line

 

I missed t, but top of t and p is 1.25 x above base line

 

bottom of g, j, y, z is 1.5 x below base line

 

bottom of f, p and q is 1 x below base line

 

Are the above dimensions correct OR acceptable for copperplate

 

Regards

Ihtzaz

 

 

 

The top of the d,t and p are (edit:) a little less than 2x above the baseline to use your terminology. Usually its referred to a 1 x-height above the waist like (the waist line is the top of the x-height). This is different than what you have listed.

 

The widely accepted standard for Copperplate is a ratio of 3:2:3 for the ascenders, x-height and descenders. This is how you've done it in your example above. So for a 4mm x-height, the ascenders will be 6mm above the waist line (or 10 mm above the base line). The descenders will go 6mm below the baseline.

 

So for the 4mm x-height, the top of the 'd','t' and 'p' will be (edit:) a little less than 4mm (say about 3mm) above the waist line (or 7mm above the base line) and the bottom of 'f' and 'p' will be 4mm below the base line. All other ascenders and descenders will reach the full height and depth of 6mm above waist line (10 mm above base) and 6mm below the base line.

 

There are other standards/preferences too. For example Dr. Vitolo in his video series on the Engraver's script uses longer ascenders and descenders which also produces very nice results.

 

BTW - the example you provided above is done very nicely.

 

Salman

 

Edit: Edited to make correction to the height of the d,t and p ascenders.

 

Salman,

As you can see in my sample, top of d is 1x above waist line and top of t & p is at 1/2x above waist line. So, in my case the 'd' ascender is essentially higher than that of t and p. Do they have to be at the same height or should I finish d at 1/2x above waist line also.

My next target is to get a proper 's' after r,v,w,o ... essentially after the letters which finish at top.

 

regards

Ihtzaz

[smk]

 

Salman,

As you can see in my sample, top of d is 1x above waist line and top of t & p is at 1/2x above waist line. So, in my case the 'd' ascender is essentially higher than that of t and p. Do they have to be at the same height or should I finish d at 1/2x above waist line also.

My next target is to get a proper 's' after r,v,w,o ... essentially after the letters which finish at top.

 

regards

Ihtzaz

 

The letters 't' and 'd' have shorter ascenders than the others like 'b','k','l'. I have seen the top of the 'p' both the same height at the 't & d' height as well as a little shorter. I'm not sure what the absolute correct height is - or if there even is one absolute correct. It is times like this when I wish I had Ken's book on Copperplate :-(

 

In W.A. Baird's instructions on iampeth.com full ascenders are 2.5x high i.e. 1.5x above the waist line. The 'p' is 1/2 x above the waist line - like you've done in your example - and 1.5 x below the base line making it 3x long.

 

In Dr. Vitolo's instructions the full ascenders are a little less than above the waist line and the 'p' goes to a little less than 1x above the waist line and going 1x below the base line.

 

Since W.A. Baird's ratio is the 3:2:3 generally recommended I would go with that (counter to what I've written in my earlier post :embarrassed_smile: )

 

Isn't it fun learning the nuances of this lovely hand?

 

Salman

[Pietru]

Inspiring stuff! Id love to have some feedback with my own efforts but wouldn't want to interrupt anybody else. Can anybody post their attempts at copperplate in this thread or is there some sort of order of precedence?

[fuchsiaprincess]

Hi Pietru,

 

Welcome! Everyone is more than welcome to post their work here

 

Warm regards,

Soki

[smk]

+1 to above.

 

Pietru please do share your exercises. We will be looking forward to them.

 

Salman

[ihtzazqamar]

Hello everyone,

My today's post is to thank everyone in this thread who have taken their time to analyze my samples and have commented. I have definitely learned a lot.

 

 

My next target is to work on shading.

 

Thanks again

Ihtzaz

[Pietru]

http://i.imgur.com/AprSe.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/5ueRr.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/JEdBv.jpg

 

Here's my attempts.

[smk]

Hello everyone,

My today's post is to thank everyone in this thread who have taken their time to analyze my samples and have commented. I have definitely learned a lot.

 

My next target is to work on shading.

 

Thanks again

Ihtzaz

 

Ihtizaz, this sample shows a definite improvement. You are making good progress. Are you following a lesson plan?

 

Salman

[smk]

 

Here's my attempts.

 

Pietru, this is a really good start. The consistency in slant is really good. You are also making good strokes in the second part of the 'h', 'p' and 'n' - its almost perfect as the first stroke in the second to last 'v' just above the 'b' in 'september'.

 

The long shaded strokes need to be uniform but it took a bit of practice for me to get there. What helped me a lot was to spread the tines at the start and then look where the stroke was going to end up and then draw the stroke quickly and confidently. I messed it up a bunch of times but eventually got the feel for it.

 

Good luck. I'll be looking forward to the next installment.

 

Salman

Edited September 14, 2011 by smk

[Pietru]

Thanks for your feedback salman, I'll try to post again soon. One question, when I try to write the hairline bit, the ink ends up bleeding onto it. Am I using the wrong sort of ink. Should it be drying more quickly, or am I doing something wrong writing the shapes? Thanks.

[sniper910]

Ihtzaz, Nice work! Definite improvements. I haven't been able to practice over the last few days but hope to get back into it over the weekend. Keep up the good work.

 

Pietru, looking very nice so far. Thank you for posting. I especially like the s and r in September

[fuchsiaprincess]

[

Here's my attempts.

 

Beautiful samples, Pietru You seem to have a natural flow with your letters. Hairlines are nice and fine, and the downstrokes will thin out with practise.

[Pietru]

Thanks all! Here's what i've done today, trying to bear stroke uniformity in mind.

http://i.imgur.com/jTga6.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/s849y.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/phSRN.jpg

[smk]

Nice practice Pietru.

 

Don't worry about your hairline stroke picking up the ink. This will happen with most ink/paper combinations. The only way I have found to avoid this is to start my hairline stroke just the tiniest bit away from the shaded stroke that has all the pooled ink just waiting to be dragged out.

 

Here's a practice sheet I did last night. Its been a while and it shows in the long shaded strokes. I need to put in regular practice because the longer I'm away the harder its going to be to get back in shape. As expected it was harder to write at the smaller size (5mm).

 

The nib used is a Gillot 303 with Walnut ink.

 

 

Salman

[Pietru]

Salman, it looks beautiful. I wish I could reproduce the letters like that. In fact, I felt like I should put in a little more practice today after seeing your practice sheet. Noticed that I have difficulty with o shapes, and creating the simplest straight lines. I think I'm learning to control thickness a little more. Btw, the book I'm using is by Herb Kaufman and Geri Homelsky for Dover. The nib (only one I have) is Brause 361 with watered down Penman mocha, on some old paper my grandparents gave me.

http://i.imgur.com/OPkj7.jpg

[ihtzazqamar]

Pietru: Do not worry too much. Everyone has gone through this phase. Practice is the only answer. I find it useful to concentrate on one aspect at a time. It helps.

 

Salman: Wow, beautiful shading. Love it. Your capitals are just beautiful. I see that you do not loop h,l,b etc except f.

 

Ihtzaz