Learning Copperplate...

August 31, 2011

here are the next bunch of exercises in strokes. slowly getting a little more control, but still having problems coming up from shaded strokes line in "m". i'm trying to concentrate a little more on evenly spacing strokes within the letter, which sometimes works, and other times doesn't. also i started practicing the long stroke as in "t". this is much harder than i thought, especially trying to keep the entire stroke consistent

Absolutely beautiful :clap1:

Don't be too hard on yourself. It will fall into place with practise.

August 31, 2011

Hi Sniper - I don't think the transition from the shades to hairlines is as much of a problem as you think. I suspect you'll benefit from writing larger (1cm x-height) with a more flexible nib (like a Gillot 303). It might not feel like it to you but I can see clear progress. Sometimes things look almost out of control and suddenly fall into place - at least that's how it works for me :-)

The 'a' is supposed to be written like an 'o' with an 'i' right next to it. The stem of the 'i' should touch the right part of the 'o' to make it an 'a'. Your 'a's are round at the bottom and look kind of italic at the top.

The slant on the 's' is much better.

Salman

September 1, 2011

Fuchsia, thank you. Still have a long way to go but still working

Salman, I'm practicing at 7mm with the gillot 303. Any other recommendations on what nibs to try? I need to get more, so I'm looking for options. I just realized I thi yesterday about the "a". Thank you. Some of the pictures I've seen made it look like it was written differently, plus I was trying to write my letters with little or no pen lifts. Thanks for the pointer, and about the "s"'. I'm still having trouble and not comfortable with that letter yet

September 1, 2011

My favourite nib is the Brause Rose.

September 1, 2011

Sniper - the Brause Rose nib is indeed excellent. Some of my other favorites are the Brause 66EF, Leonardt Principal, Hunt 99 vintage and Esterbrook 357. These are all very flexy - for smaller writing I really like the Gillot 170 (some people recommend Gillot 404 highly for smaller x-heights but its a bit too stiff for my taste.)

You'll need to experiment a bit to see what you like. I'd recommend getting at least 3 of each type you choose. I usually order 5 of each type so I can throw away any duds and still be left with a couple. I've been lucky so far and have only had two or three turn out bad in total.

I learned Copperplate with a Gillot 303 and used a Brause 66 EF later on. You should be fine with the 303 for 1cm x-height. I find it hard to write at 7mm x-height with the 303, I use a 170 for that.

As for the pen lifts, Copperplate has far fewer pen lifts compared to Engrosser's script but still much more than regular handwriting. The 'a' always needs a pen lift between the 'o' and the 'i'.

Salman

Edited September 1, 2011 by smk

September 4, 2011

smk: Does e need a pen left...writing a 'c' and then making it an 'e'?

Back from eid holidays. Also, I am now a gold member and can SEE the upload tab.

Ihtzaz

September 4, 2011

smk: Does e need a pen left...writing a 'c' and then making it an 'e'?
Back from eid holidays. Also, I am now a gold member and can SEE the upload tab.

Ihtzaz

Welcome back Ihtizaz. How was your Eid? We had a whale of a time spending Eid with our family in Peshawar after a long long time.

Initially its easier to write 'e' in two strokes like you mentioned i.e. write a 'c' and then to the top and make the loop back to the middle of the 'c' stroke. Later on one can write it in one stroke but I believe its best to develop an eye for good form first.

Glad to know you can see the upload tab - looking forward to seeing your exercises on a regular basis now :-)

Salman

September 5, 2011

Thanks so much for your input salman. Is there a general rule regarding recommended heights and nib model numbers? I'm hoping t o be more confident in my writing and be able to write at smaller x-heights. And while I'm on the subject, have you tried the blue pumpkin nib, or the hiro 40? I've tried with that nib, and another of that bowl type, and have had no success at all. Are those made for thicker ink?

September 5, 2011

Thanks so much for your input salman. Is there a general rule regarding recommended heights and nib model numbers? I'm hoping t o be more confident in my writing and be able to write at smaller x-heights. And while I'm on the subject, have you tried the blue pumpkin nib, or the hiro 40? I've tried with that nib, and another of that bowl type, and have had no success at all. Are those made for thicker ink?

You are most welcome Sniper - it is my pleasure to be of help in any way. I am a novice at this but am more than willing to share what I have learned. There are others who know a lot more than me and I hope to learn from them as they provide guidance from time to time.

I don't know if there's a rule for x-height and nibs but the more flexible nibs are hard to control at smaller x-heights. The flexibility of the nib is not the only factor in this, personal styles play a big role. For example, I have a very light touch in general and find that stiffer nibs like the Gillot 404, which is well regarded for smaller x-heights, is hard for me to control. The Gillot 170 is soft but is smaller and much easier for me to control as the maximum spread is limited by the size of the tines. A crow quill nib is excellent for smaller x-heights as is recommended by Ken (caliken) earlier in this thread.

For Copperplate the rule is to have the shades be 1/5th the width of the letter width. The letter width is half the size of letter height for the letter 'o' (which is the basis for letter size and spacing between words.) Given this, one can experiment with the nib to see if it can reliably produce shades of the required width thus providing some basis for nib selection for a given x-height.

I found that writing at smaller x-heights became easier as I practiced at the larger sizes even with nibs that I found hard to control in the beginning.

My experience with the Hiro 40 is similar to yours. The ink just drops off in a blob on the page even after rigorous cleaning. I plan to experiment with adding a couple of drops of gum arabic to the ink to see if that makes a difference. Ditto for the Brause Rose nib. Both these nibs are very flexible and are said to be capable of producing large letters up to 2 cm x-height (i.e. a 4mm width of the shade).

Regards,

Salman

September 5, 2011

Ditto for the Brause Rose nib. Both these nibs are very flexible and are said to be capable of producing large letters up to 2 cm x-height (i.e. a 4mm width of the shade).

It's worth persevering with the Brause Rose nibs. I agree that they can be difficult starters, but when they do work, they are superb nibs for large Copperplate. This little video clip may give some idea of their capabilities. You can gauge the size of the lettering by the size of my hand.

caliken

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D6vqpQzfQU

September 8, 2011

Hello, I am back. I have practiced a lot in the last month using Gillot 303 in a straight holder. Have overcome few of the problems and many need to be addressed. With a straight pen I face difficulties in top loops of b,h,k,l, specially in b and l. I also tried oblique holder. It helps in loops but all other letters go wrong. Will practice and come through.

My biggest problem is finding a suitable paper and ink.

Ihtzaz

September 8, 2011

It's worth persevering with the Brause Rose nibs. I agree that they can be difficult starters, but when they do work, they are superb nibs for large Copperplate. This little video clip may give some idea of their capabilities. You can gauge the size of the lettering by the size of my hand.

caliken

Thanks for the endorsement and the lovely video. I'm not giving up on these nibs yet - your video has provided additional inspiration in making it look easy enough for me to try my hand at it :-)

Salman

September 8, 2011

Hello, I am back. I have practiced a lot in the last month using Gillot 303 in a straight holder. Have overcome few of the problems and many need to be addressed. With a straight pen I face difficulties in top loops of b,h,k,l, specially in b and l. I also tried oblique holder. It helps in loops but all other letters go wrong. Will practice and come through.

My biggest problem is finding a suitable paper and ink.

Ihtzaz

Ihtizaz - you are coming along nicely. The practice sheet doesn't look like you are struggling at all.

Paper and ink combination is difficult to get right in the beginning. I got lucky and found a ream of old paper that took ink beautifully. More recently I tried out PPC branded 80 gsm paper made in Indonesia and it works well with a variety of inks even for Copperplate. I don't know if I just got one from a good batch but it might be worth looking into.

I will be in Islamabad in the next week to 10 days - maybe we can get together for a chat and some Calligraphy practice.

Salman

September 8, 2011

Hello, I am back. I have practiced a lot in the last month using Gillot 303 in a straight holder. Have overcome few of the problems and many need to be addressed. With a straight pen I face difficulties in top loops of b,h,k,l, specially in b and l. I also tried oblique holder. It helps in loops but all other letters go wrong. Will practice and come through.

My biggest problem is finding a suitable paper and ink.

Ihtzaz

Ihtizaz - you are coming along nicely. The practice sheet doesn't look like you are struggling at all.

Paper and ink combination is difficult to get right in the beginning. I got lucky and found a ream of old paper that took ink beautifully. More recently I tried out PPC branded 80 gsm paper made in Indonesia and it works well with a variety of inks even for Copperplate. I don't know if I just got one from a good batch but it might be worth looking into.

I will be in Islamabad in the next week to 10 days - maybe we can get together for a chat and some Calligraphy practice.

Salman

Ah, thanks Salman for kind words of encouragement. As you noticed in my other post, the letter p is a problem for me. Will work on it.

I would love to meet you in Islamabad. Let me know when you are in.

Ihtzaz

September 8, 2011

As you noticed in my other post, the letter p is a problem for me. Will work on it.

A 'p' in copperplate is just an 'n' with a longer initial stroke. Your 'n's are pretty nice (especially the first occurrence in 'been'). That puts you in a good position to perfect your 'p's. You might want to spend some time practicing that long stroke, its useful in 'f', 'g', 'h', 'k', 'l', 'p', 'q', 'y' and to some degree for 't' and 'd'. I find it useful to look at the end point after putting the pen in position at the start in these longish strokes and drawing the stroke smoothly but quickly.

Happy practicing.

Salman

September 10, 2011

Sometimes I get confused regarding top and bottom of letters. This specially happens with t, d, f, and p. I have written these letters on a graph paper.

Top of b, f, h, k, l, is 2.5 x above the base line where ' x ' is the 'x' height

top of d is 2 x above the base line

I missed t, but top of t and p is 1.25 x above base line

bottom of g, j, y, z is 1.5 x below base line

bottom of f, p and q is 1 x below base line

Are the above dimensions correct OR acceptable for copperplate

Regards

Ihtzaz

September 11, 2011

That is really good, Ihtzaz

Regards,

Soki

September 11, 2011

Well, I've finally managed to do some writing after a long hiatus. I used paper from a Manuscript Parchment pad, and the nib I used was the Brause EF 66. The ink was Higgins Sepia. Unfortunately, the paper (which wasn't terribly well-behaved to start with) started to feather quite badly, as the writing progressed. I checked to make sure the tines were aligned, cleaned the nib, etc. but the problem persisted. Anyhow, here is my effort :

http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y331/fuchsiaprincess/Patience.jpg

September 11, 2011

Well, I've finally managed to do some writing after a long hiatus. I used paper from a Manuscript Parchment pad, and the nib I used was the Brause EF 66. The ink was Higgins Sepia. Unfortunately, the paper (which wasn't terribly well-behaved to start with) started to feather quite badly, as the writing progressed. I checked to make sure the tines were aligned, cleaned the nib, etc. but the problem persisted. Anyhow, here is my effort :

http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y331/fuchsiaprincess/Patience.jpg

Beautiful, Fuchsia, just beautiful. Did you have a pattern sheet under the writing surface ? I can't see how you could get your lines so straight nor your letters sized so perfectly, without one.