Learning Copperplate...

[Mickey]

Sniper,

 

Remember, dip pen nibs are a consumable and are not subject to much factory inspection. Consequently, a fair number are going to be defective, right out of the box. I expect at least one nib in five is going to be a dud and only one in three to be really good. Your problem may simply be a bad nib. BTW, My experience with the Hunt 101 is that they snags fairly easily, even in a properly adjusted holder.

[sniper910]

thanks mickey. since reading your post i've been trying the hunt ex-fine bowl pointed to see if there is a difference. i find that it's not scratching as much which is a good thing. but one thing i've noticed, maybe this is with all flex nibs, is that it's hard to control the flow after dipping. my first 2 letters always seem to have excessive ink, then it clears up for another 2-3 letters before having to dip again. it's really hard to control, especially on the hairline strokes. sorry if i seem to be asking silly questions, but i just haven't been able to figure out what i'm doing wrong. this is so very different from flat nibs which i'm more used to.

[Mickey]

Three things from my limited experience:

 

1. Shake off excess ink back into the ink pot before writing. It's very easy to overload the nib.

 

2. Make your first mark after dipping (particularly with important work) onto a piece of scrap paper.

 

3. Nibs manage ink better after a patina (oxidation) develops.

 

And don't forget, thoroughly clean the nib before first use.

[sniper910]

i know i still need tons of work. i'm still having trouble with the initial ink flow. could be the paper, but waiting on getting a different type right now. hopefully i can get some before the weekend. my hairlines are looking pretty thick cause of it, until it's just about to run out where it starts to look decent. what else do i need work on? i'm not sure where to start. sorry for the poor photo quality

 

 

 

[caliken]

  On 7/11/2011 at 6:55 AM, sniper910 said:

i know i still need tons of work. i'm still having trouble with the initial ink flow. could be the paper, but waiting on getting a different type right now. hopefully i can get some before the weekend. my hairlines are looking pretty thick cause of it, until it's just about to run out where it starts to look decent. what else do i need work on? i'm not sure where to start.

As long as you're using a decent paper which is smooth but not coated (not shiny) you should be OK.

 

Follow the progress of Salman who started this topic. Since he started as a beginner in this style in February, he has made rapid progress and is now writing an accomplished, polished Copperplate hand. In particular, the exercises used, and illustrated, by several on this thread are of great value. As I'm sure he'll agree, there is no substitute for structured practice.

 

caliken

Edited July 11, 2011 by caliken

[sniper910]

Thanks Caliken. I've been doing those exercises and following his progress, which is coming along great. In fact, I spent almost 6 hours yesterday alone on the exercises, taking breaks here and there to prevent fatigue. Seems my biggest problem right now is ink flow. Even if I barely graze the paper, the ink comes out so easily that it's hard to make the fine hairlines and everything comes out looking the same thickness. Maybe I should try a thicker ink? Only thing is that there isn't many places that sell calligraphy ink here in Hawai'i. By me trying not to put any pressure on the paper to try and make the lines look thinner, my writing comes out shaky and uneven. Although I still have a lot to go, I'm almost positive that if I could control the ink better, my progress would show a little more, and give my a little more confidence that I can do this with practice. I'm almost ready to give up and stick to gothic where I don't seem to have this problem

[sniper910]

Also, is it recommended that I use an oblique pen holder? I've been using a straight holder, but does the angle change for the better if I use an oblique holder?

[smk]

Ken - thanks for the kind words. You just made my day!

 

Sniper - good to see you've dived into learning this hand.

 

The hairlines in your example may not be as thin as you would like but I think the shades could be a good bit thicker. The standard is that the thickness of the shade at its widest point is 1/5th of the width of the letter.

 

I started my practice with Walnut ink (from crystals sold at John Neal Bookseller), Pelikan Brilliant Brown and Pelikan Brilliant Black. All three worked well for me - the bigger challenge was finding a good paper that could take the ink - the ink pools on the paper in the shaded places and should dry there without the paper absorbing it. I found that Daler Rowney Marker Pads were just perfect.

 

Also, the nibs took much longer to break in than I had expected so persevere with them and one day you'll get them going just right.

 

I have tried a number of inks since then and some are good while others not so much. I tried Sumi ink which works beautifully but you need to clean your nib every few dips as the ink starts to dry on the nib and coats it fairly quickly. Higgins Eternal is a lovely ink for Calligraphy. I have several inks from Winsor and Newton in different colors but I find them a bit thick out of the bottle.

 

A drop or two of Gum Arabic in FP ink makes it much better for dip pen work. I've heard that honey can be used instead of Gum Arabic but I haven't tried it myself. I usually take a little bit of the ink out in a mini jam bottle and use it for my dip pens from there to avoid contaminating the whole bottle.

 

It might be worth it to concentrate on controlling the shades and getting the nib/ink/paper combination right. The hairlines can come later.

 

Keep posting.

 

Edit: About the oblique holder; It made a world of difference to me. There are some people who can do without it. Now that I have learned the hand somewhat I can manage to write it with a straight holder by rotating the paper rather drastically but its much easier for me to use an oblique holder.

 

Salman

Edited July 11, 2011 by smk

[caliken]

  On 7/11/2011 at 9:27 PM, smk said:

About the oblique holder; It made a world of difference to me. There are some people who can do without it. Now that I have learned the hand somewhat I can manage to write it with a straight holder by rotating the paper rather drastically but its much easier for me to use an oblique holder.

 

Salman

Sniper910 -

 

I didn't realise that you were starting with a straight holder. This could well be the source of your problem. Trying to write at an extreme slope with a straight pen is possible, but difficult and uncomfortable, with a normal handhold. This extract from my book, may help.

 

caliken

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/A4Page9450.jpg

Edited July 11, 2011 by caliken

[sniper910]

Yeah, don't know why that didn't click til now. I've seen videos of people using the straight holder, and thought the oblique holders were for left handed people. Does it help bring the angle lower to the pen?

[The penner]

My 2 cents. Not entirely mine either.

 

See this guide to adjusting the flange and pen (nib) angle by Joe Vitolo. Reduces scratching and makes the optimizes the angle.

 

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/getting_started/setting_and_stabilizing.pdf

[sniper910]

thank you penner. i'm going to order my oblique nib holder and some other nibs tonight, and hopefully that will help me out. i'm going to try out the same nibs that smk is using now, the gillot 170 and 303, and also gonna try out the blue pumpkin. thank you everyone for all your help

[sniper910]

i've been working on my copperplate hand, and presently got interested in the italian copperplate from the calligraphers bible. still having problems with the shading and the hairline strokes. am i going about this the right way from my example?

[smk]

Its a good start IMO.

 

You might want to pay attention to the round miniscules e.g. the 'a' in the example does not close at the top. You have a nice consistent slant except for the 's' which seems to be written upright.

 

I think the Italian variant of Copperplate is pretty hard to get right since its so delicate - you are off to a good start.

 

Salman

[caliken]

  On 8/14/2011 at 2:42 AM, sniper910 said:

i've been working on my copperplate hand, and presently got interested in the italian copperplate from the calligraphers bible.

The Calligrapher's Bible by David Harris is great fun and there are many good ideas within its covers. However, the intructions on pointed pen calligraphy ("Copperplate, English Roundhand" and "Copperplate, Italian Hand) are misleading, to put it mildly.

 

As with all Copperpate scripts, the pen is sharpened to a point In the accompanying illustrations a modern, metallic nib is shown.

 

The angle of slope is at 40 degrees from the vertical The angle of slope for Copperplate (English Roundhand) is 35 degrees from the vertical.

 

The thinner strokes can be made with the nib dragged on its corner. This instruction applies to narrow, edged nibs which were used to produce the original lettering which was subsequently etched onto copperpates and then copied with flexible pointed nibs. The nib, as shown in the illustrations is pointed : a pointed nib has no edges!

 

Traditionally, the pen was held at right angles to the suface, with only the tip of the little finger touching the paper. Correct, if describing writing with a narrow, edged pen. This is totally misleading, as all the other instructions are for the use of a flexible, pointed pen - including the illustrations.

 

In many of the letters, in particular the majuscules, the suggested ductus is impossible with many of the swelled strokes shown as being written in an upward direction. As anyone who has ever attempted to write with a flexible nib will tell you, this is a recipe for disaster, with the nib digging into the paper.

 

Referring to minuscules - The stems of the letters are straight and can be drawn with the nib less pointed than that for the Italian Hand.

Again this refers to writing with a narrow, edged pen, which has nothing to do with the lettering shown with a metal pointed nib. Some of these descriptions relate to the writings of George Bickham in the eighteenth century, in which he describes writing with a narrow, edged pen.

 

In all of the illustrations, the pen is shown being held at entirely the wrong angle.

For swelled strokes with a flexible, pointed nib, it must be pointed at, or close to, the slope of the writing.

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Hands500.jpg

 

I don't particularly enjoy criticising this book which has many good things in it, but for someone just starting out in learning Copperplate, it is, at the very least, misleading and I just felt that someone should point it out.

 

I leave the last word to a description of the book, as advertised in John Neal's catalogue. Note: The instructional photos for the pointed pen script alphabets do not follow the standard practice in the USA. - written by a master of diplomacy!

 

caliken

Edited August 14, 2011 by caliken

[ihtzazqamar]

Hello. I am new to this forum and am learning copperplate now a days. Seeing the posts in this thread, I am at square one right now. Hope to learn and improve by participating.

At this moment, copperplate means to me 'thick down strokes and thin up strokes'. I still have to learn to maintain x height, slant angle and consistent shading. I only have few nibs, a couple of straight holders, my sons notebook to write on and fountain pen ink to go with.

Here is my first submission. Please feel free to guide me.

Thanks

Ihtzaz

[sniper910]

Thanks smk. Geez, for being basic cursive, this hand sure is giving me lot of challenges. I've had an easier time learning gothic hands. Do you think I should maybe start off with the English hand instead then work on the italian later? And I never noticed that about the open "a", and my slant on the "s". I will pay closer attention to these details.

 

Caliken-yes the calligraphers bible didn't point out these details. Making this hand much more difficult than I thought. Do you discuss the Italian hand in your book? I may just hold off on copperplate practice until I receive your book before I pick up bad habits.

[caliken]

"Italian Copperplate" as shown in the book, isn't difficult - just different. I would start with Copperplate (English Roundhand) and then diversify later. The discipline you learn with Copperplate will stand you in good stead with other flexible nib styles.

I hope that you enjoy the book.

 

caliken

[sniper910]

Thank you Ken, I look forward to receiving your book and putting in more practice.

[Oliwerko]

Hi everyone!

 

To put it short, I jumped onto the Copperplate bandwagon and so far I am enjoying the ride very much. After getting all what was needed and studying all the necessary material (and reading the whole of this thread), I decided to go slowly and carefully rather than to rush to anything fast and develop some nasty bad habits.

 

This is my sheet No.1. After getting used to the feel of the nib for a few days, this is my first serious practice sheet and was done over a few days. I learned (more or less) to do square cutoffs, which I found tricky at first but then realized they aren't that hard when done properly.

 

Anyway, I used the Zebra G nib inked with Old World iron gall ink on a Sennelier calligraphy paper sheet. The action was lovely, apart from the lower right quarter of the sheet, which was very scratchy for some reason and it was very difficult to spread the left tine when beginning the stroke (you can probably see this from the scan). The reason for the nib to catch so much in there is yet to be found.

 

I guess I'll leave single strokes for now and move on to the u-shaped exercise and devote a sheet to it. These lines are not perfect, but they repeat in the next exercise, plus I get to learn to do some hairlines.

 

What do you think?

 

 

(To see the image with no guidelines, click here: http://oliwerko.ic.cz/Copperplate%20sheet%201_noGL.jpg)

Edited August 15, 2011 by Oliwerko