Learning Copperplate...

[fuchsiaprincess]

Thanks to you all for the eye candy! I'm not going to try to learn how to do the beautiful lettering you are all producing, but I like watching you do it,

 

It is really fun! You should give it a try!

 

Regards,

Soki

[gnomore]

I need to know a good ink to buy for copperplate. I am currently using noodlers black ink for a fountain pen and it is very very runny, falls off the nib. The Brause Rose tip I have, I dip it in and it just falls right off, cant even get a thin lines worth on the paper. The only nib it even sort of works for is my 66 ef which I only get about 2 strokes before it is dry.

 

I would like to practice with a very high quality black ink. As black as can be. I am willing to spend on ink and paper as I want to be practicing with high quality. Also I really need to figure out what paper to use. My laser paper has terrible bleed through. I saw that hp inkjet 32lb paper works well. Is this the best paper to practice with? Also what would be a good pad of paper to use for "finish work". The two nibs I have right now are the brause rose and the brause 66 ef. Also does anyone have a link for a guide sheet I can print out to put under my pages.

 

So to sum it up the five questions.

 

1) Need a very high quality pure black ink for copperplate.

2) Need high quality practice paper that does not bleed at all.

3) Need very high quality finish paper for non practice work.

4) Anyone have a link for a good guide page I can print out.

5) Anyone know of practice sheets I can print out to put behind a piece of paper that might for instance just have 200 instances of the letter a so I can trace. I remember in school that is the first method teachers used to teach us. We traced the letters first then went to copying.

 

Thank You

Edited April 30, 2011 by gnomore

[Mickey]

Black ink for copperplate: McCaffery Penman's Black (iron gall), Moon Palace Sumi. (Both are available from John Neal, Bookseller or Paper and Ink Arts.)

 

Make sure you've really gotten your nib cleaned of its protective coating and properly smudged up before loading. I've used Bullet Proof Black with both the nibs you mention with no problem getting a full load. (The Rose can be a little be a little difficult to get started, as the tines can spread under minimal pressure before ink flow is established.)

 

There is no such thing as bleed proof paper, though Clairefontaine / Rhodia comes close. (Clairefontaine's Triomphe pads are often recommended for copperplate and Spencerian practice.)The ink you choose will also have a profound effect on bleeding and line bloat. The aforementioned Noodler's BPB hardly feathers on anything. I am yet to find a paper which won't exhibit feather with the some ink or other, and yet I've seen an offending ink behave stunningly well on another paper. Experiment. (I most often use Strathmore 25% cotton Writing for practice. It's smooth enough to yield good results and textured enough to punish sloth.)

 

Guide sheets: Plenty to be found below. I recommend printing them up in any color other than black. It makes it easier to separate your marks from the guide lines.

 

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons_guidesheets.php

 

For the rest, I defer to the better informed.

[gnomore]

Black ink for copperplate: McCaffery Penman's Black (iron gall), Moon Palace Sumi. (Both are available from John Neal, Bookseller or Paper and Ink Arts.)

 

Make sure you've really gotten your nib cleaned of its protective coating and properly smudged up before loading. I've used Bullet Proof Black with both the nibs you mention with no problem getting a full load. (The Rose can be a little be a little difficult to get started, as the tines can spread under minimal pressure before ink flow is established.)

 

There is no such thing as bleed proof paper, though Clairefontaine / Rhodia comes close. (Clairefontaine's Triomphe pads are often recommended for copperplate and Spencerian practice.)The ink you choose will also have a profound effect on bleeding and line bloat. The aforementioned Noodler's BPB hardly feathers on anything. I am yet to find a paper which won't exhibit feather with the some ink or other, and yet I've seen an offending ink behave stunningly well on another paper. Experiment. (I most often use Strathmore 25% cotton Writing for practice. It's smooth enough to yield good results and textured enough to punish sloth.)

 

Guide sheets: Plenty to be found below. I recommend printing them up in any color other than black. It makes it easier to separate your marks from the guide lines.

 

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons_guidesheets.php

 

For the rest, I defer to the better informed.

 

Ah maybe that is why I am having problems with my nibs. I did not clean them when they arrived. How do I properly clean them for use?

[Mickey]

Ah maybe that is why I am having problems with my nibs. I did not clean them when they arrived. How do I properly clean them for use?

 

Windex and a host of other things get used.

 

The answers to many of your questions are in the following thread.

 

http://www.fountainp..._1#entry1941898

[metwin1]

Newcomer joining the party... sort of. Using a Speedball penholder and a Hunt 101 nib (I wanted to support a bricks and mortar art supply store in my neighbourhood, and they only have Hunt nibs), with an inhouse-brand India ink, and regular copy paper from Grand and Toy (the Staples of Canada).

 

Right now, I'm just making strokes across the paper, to get a feel of the nib.

 

How much can/should I push down on the nib at the down stroke? How thick should the line be?

 

Right now, each dip gets me about 10 downward strokes (8mm guide)... very crooked and uneven downward strokes at that, and the moment I push my nib such that I draw a line that is beyond... I'd say 0.8mm thick (eyeball comparison to the Lamy 1.1mm nib), the ink drains from the nib to the paper. Am I doing something wrong?

[Mickey]

Newcomer joining the party... sort of. Using a Speedball penholder and a Hunt 101 nib (I wanted to support a bricks and mortar art supply store in my neighbourhood, and they only have Hunt nibs), with an inhouse-brand India ink, and regular copy paper from Grand and Toy (the Staples of Canada).

 

Right now, I'm just making strokes across the paper, to get a feel of the nib.

 

How much can/should I push down on the nib at the down stroke? How thick should the line be?

 

Right now, each dip gets me about 10 downward strokes (8mm guide)... very crooked and uneven downward strokes at that, and the moment I push my nib such that I draw a line that is beyond... I'd say 0.8mm thick (eyeball comparison to the Lamy 1.1mm nib), the ink drains from the nib to the paper. Am I doing something wrong?

 

Did you clean the nib of it's protective coating? Steel nibs come from the factory coated with a film (manufacturing lubricant?) which keeps them from rusting until put to use. It also keeps them from holding ink properly. That coating needs to be removed and almost any solvent will work, even good old spit. Once the coating is gone and a patina of ink (and or corrosion) plates the metal, ink flow should be better behaved.

 

I clean a new nib with either printer head cleaner or Windex. After rinsing, I take a little bit of ink on a paper towel and smudge the nib with it. Sometimes this takes a couple of passes. After that, the nib will hold its ink. G nibs (by Nikko, Zebra, and others) are chrome plated and may need to be resmudged before every session. Bare steel nibs seldom need resmudging.

[smk]

I've been otherwise occupied these past few days. Its lovely to see the activity on this thread.

 

I haven't chickened out of the username project - have been working on some flourishes that are halfway decent. I think I have it now and will be uploading a scan soon.

 

metwin1 - Mickey is right on the money. In addition to cleaning/degreasing the nibs I find that I get the dreaded blob if I don't dip the nib up to the breather hole. It takes some getting used to but the results are well worth the effort. Its lovely to have you onboard.

 

gnomore its great to have you join us. We'll be looking forward to your practice sheets as you go along the lessons.

 

Learning Copperplate take a lot of practice and patience. I'm far from done learning this script - I doubt that I'll ever be complete 'done' learning it. The learning process is quite enjoyable and the rewards are satisfying. I like to look at the before and after pictures of the masters as they learned this script to remind me what can be achieve. See the 'Before and After - Progress in Script' links on the Getting Started page at iampeth.com - you'll be surprised.

 

I have redone my handle and while I had that beautiful ink, thought Id copy something in Latin as well:

 

These are lovely Soki. Please don't stop practicing your flourishes, its a joy to see your contributions.

 

 

Thanks to you all for the eye candy! I'm not going to try to learn how to do the beautiful lettering you are all producing, but I like watching you do it,

 

I think you'll find it easier than you think. Your normal hand is close to the letterforms used in Copperplate and an oblique holder makes it very easy. I strongly urge you to give it a go if you like this script (even if it doesn't work out you're out less than $10.)

 

Just got my hands on a BB Namiki Falcon and producing ANYTHING legible with any flex nib is rough going. Can't imagine how you guys are handling serious flex AND using dip nibs

 

I felt the same way when I tried flex nibs with straight holders. The tipping on an FP should make it smooth and easier to use with flex - you just have to go very very slowly compared to normal handwriting. I have promised myself a full flex FP upon completion of my learning of the basic Copperplate - it'll be some time though.

 

Salman

[Mickey]

 

Learning Copperplate take a lot of practice and patience.

 

And even the qualified failures offer pleasure. Most evening, she-who-must-be-obeyed and I sit down together for a 20 minute practice sessions and get up an hour and half later pointing with muted pride to the three or four letters which are "not bad." It's oddly satisfying.

[smk]

That is a brilliant idea, Salman! By the way, are you still using the walnut crystals? Your ink looks more red than usual. It is beautiful! Needless to say, so is the penmanship

 

Sorry - missed this one. The ink I've been using lately is a mix of Quink Red and Dollar Blue.

 

I have bought some crystals they use for teaching writing with Qalam on a 'Takhti' (a wooden slate covered in clay). The crystals are water soluble and contain a little bit of shellac, the ink is supposed to be shiny when dry. I mixed them with water and some Pelikan Black - the result is not shiny but I like the consistency a lot better than when mixed just with water.

 

Salman

[Ghost Plane]

Funny how much smaller my writing gets when I'm using the Falcon nib :blink: I'm used to huge swoops and swirls with my paintbrush nibs and suddenly the extremely light touch needed results in miniscule script.

[smk]

I have been playing with some flourishes that have a different flavor. I think they'll look better if I simplify them a bit but will share what I have done until now.

 

Here are my attempts:

 

 

 

Salman

[caliken]

Nice work, Salman

Edited May 4, 2011 by caliken

[Bierce]

I have been playing with some flourishes that have a different flavor. I think they'll look better if I simplify them a bit but will share what I have done until now.

 

Here are my attempts:

 

Salman

 

Very nice. The floral stuff is great. I haven't spent enough time to effectively incorporate anything like that into my flourishing yet. Does anybody else ever feel like the more you learn, the more you learn about how much more you need to learn? Nice little feedback loop.

[smk]

Thank you Ken and Bierce. I think I'm overdoing it a bit - a simplified version should look better balanced and more elegant. When I have some time I guess.

 

I have been practicing Majuscules and am attaching a practice sheet. I have done these with the minimum number of strokes in a handwritten style as much as possible.

 

I think I'm nearing the end of the initial learning phase. I believe I am at a level where I can form letters properly and know when I have made a mistake - hence the repeated letters in the exercise sheet. My consistency in forming letters is still not up to par but I guess that will come with more practice.

 

I don't think I'll ever be 'done' with learning and refining my skills at this hand but I believe the initial 'learning' process is coming to an end. I might not have the ability to execute perfectly yet but I think my eye has been trained to recognize good and bad letters. Indeed, some examples of Copperplate that I found absolutely superb are not as impressive now.

 

I will follow with a post comparing some practice sessions from the early days to now so we can all see what (or if) progress has been made.

 

Salman

[Ghost Plane]

Wow! Just wow! I envy your Gs. I never could learn to make a cursive G back in school and dropped it for a printed. Now it makes me think about going back and trying again.

[fuchsiaprincess]

Thank you Ken and Bierce. I think I'm overdoing it a bit - a simplified version should look better balanced and more elegant. When I have some time I guess.

 

I have been practicing Majuscules and am attaching a practice sheet. I have done these with the minimum number of strokes in a handwritten style as much as possible.

 

I think I'm nearing the end of the initial learning phase. I believe I am at a level where I can form letters properly and know when I have made a mistake - hence the repeated letters in the exercise sheet. My consistency in forming letters is still not up to par but I guess that will come with more practice.

 

I don't think I'll ever be 'done' with learning and refining my skills at this hand but I believe the initial 'learning' process is coming to an end. I might not have the ability to execute perfectly yet but I think my eye has been trained to recognize good and bad letters. Indeed, some examples of Copperplate that I found absolutely superb are not as impressive now.

 

I will follow with a post comparing some practice sessions from the early days to now so we can all see what (or if) progress has been made.

 

Salman

 

Hi Salman,

 

Your majuscles are absolutely beautiful! May I ask what nib did you use? There is amazing line variation

 

Warm regards,

Soki

[smk]

Wow! Just wow! I envy your Gs. I never could learn to make a cursive G back in school and dropped it for a printed. Now it makes me think about going back and trying again.

 

You should be able to do the Gs easily with that Namiki - it was one of the easier ones to learn for me. I had the toughest time with the X and D, still do I think.

 

You mentioned that your writing becomes small when you slow down which leads me to believe that you write more with arm movement than finger movement which in my opinion is a good thing. That fact should help you get the hang of it but you need to start BIG.

 

If you are using ruled paper make the top rounded part a bit larger than the distance between the rules and drop the straight shaded stroke down to the line below. I'm not sure if I'm making any sense but I'm sure you'll get the G down in no time. Start BIG.

 

S.

[smk]

Hi Salman,

 

Your majuscles are absolutely beautiful! May I ask what nib did you use? There is amazing line variation

 

Warm regards,

Soki

 

Thank you Soki. I'm now trying to get to a level where I can make each letter properly and consistently - just a matter of some time I'm sure.

 

This example was written with a Hunt 99 vintage nib (available at John Neal Booksellers) which is my current favorite. I think you see the line variation more because of the size of the letters though - the x-height for this example was 1cm and the majuscules are 2cm tall. I suspect this nib will be too hard to control at smaller x-heights like 5mm and below. I have a Leonardt Principal that is just perfect for the smaller sized letters - a Brause 66 EF is also superb. They say a crow quill is best for smaller script sizes but I have only one of those that came with a set and I'm not sure I like it that much.

 

Salman

[Ghost Plane]

Salman, you guessed correctly. When Dad taught me to write, he taught me to sketch the letters, rolling on my forearm and using broader motions from my wrist, rather than using my fingers. While my hand is more rounded than his, which was very spiky with verticals 3 times as long as horizontals, I still have a tendency toward very narrow Ss and my Fs are rather archaic, bearing a resemblance to the antique double Ss found in some of the exemplars posted awhile back. Because of the slant, it makes forward strokes somewhat strained in feel.

 

On the other hand, because my letters already lean strongly right to left, I'm curious to discover if right to left alphabets will come more easily. A friend's mom wrote out Farsi for me to copy, but without her example to aid my practice, I hesitate, lest I learn bad habits without her here to correct me. Hopefully when she returns home, I'll have more opportunity.

 

I really must post my scrawl somewhere so you can see where I'm starting from. :hmm1:

 

Edited to add: Members of my family without access to metal dip nibs used goose feathers with reasonable success in the 1800s. Their homemade ink has faded horribly, but the script was lovely and fluid. Try goose instead of crow and see what you think.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Ghost Plane